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Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine? (2)

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MrPolo

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The poster is correct who said that just because it was formally "defined" in the 1800s, does not mean it was not believed LONG prior to that. Just ask Martin Luther what he thought about this issue. :D

As well, often doctrines were not defined until there were significant challenges. Not even at the Reformation was there such a challenge. For example, the concept of the hypostatic union was not defined until after a few centuries in the face of such challenge.

And finally, Jesus takes 2 attempts to heal a blind man. After the first healing, the man sees, but he cannot make out everything. Jesus touches him a 2nd time and the man can see. (Mk 8:22-25)

Because God reveals to us in stages. :) To argue against a doctrine because of how long it took to understand is silly. ;)
 
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Hentenza

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If I find a rock, the rock was there before I found it.

If the Immanculate Conception was defined centuries later, it had always been true anyways

Interesting analogy but totally irrelevant. The immaculate conception is not a rock that you found somewhere but a dogma created for a purpose. There is no scriptural backing for this belief.
 
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simonthezealot

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you cannot create a truth. truth is truth. the immaculate conception is the truth. you should not fight against truth
The IC not only contradicts scripture it outright denis scriptural truth...And places a deistic identity on someone other than Christ...
That is TRUTH.
 
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Athanasias

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Interesting analogy but totally irrelevant. The immaculate conception is not a rock that you found somewhere but a dogma created for a purpose. There is no scriptural backing for this belief.

I would dissagree with you. A Dogma is never invented or created. A dogma is a belief that has been long believed by the early church (Such as the Trinity or the Immaculate conception) that has been formally and infallibly defined not created.

Yes we understand that you believe that but in our Catholic understanding and the early Churches her immaculate conception is in scripture implicitly. So we dissagree with you!


How you ask? Well here goes again!

Mary in the New Testament is also a fulfillment of certain types namely Eve and the Ark of the Covenant. In Genesis Eve is described as a “Women” who disobeyed God. Genesis describes one woman (Eve) and one man (Adam) who are created initially immaculate. The woman and man are approached by one angel (who is fallen, the Devil) and they choose freely to dis-obey God and eat one food from one tree that would cause death for a whole race. In Luke’s gospel the same is seen but only in reversed and redemptive way. In Luke one woman (Mary) is visited by one angel (who is holy, Gabriel) and this one woman freely chooses to obey and ac-cept God’s plan for her, unlike Eve. This one women would give birth to one man -Jesus Christ- who would die for all on a tree and give the world one food to eat that would give life to the whole human race (Holy Communion). Mary is truly the fulfillment of Eve as Jesus is of Adam. Catholic Scripture scholar Dr. Scott Hahn demonstrates that Mary is called by the title “woman” by Jesus himself and in Rev 12:1-17 one discovers that the “woman” who is described as a ful-fillment of Eve is the Mother of God herself.
The Fathers of the Church saw Mary as the fulfillment of Eve too. St. Justin Martyr in 155 A.D. made direct comparisons to Mary and Eve on a redemptive level. St. Ireneuas spoke of Mary as a fulfillment of Eve stating that in Luke’s Gospel Mary loosed the knot of sin that Eve bound the world in. Even as early as the late 1st century the writings of Mathetes spoke of a new incorrupt Eve who was a Virgin.


The typology of Mary as New Eve is important to the Immaculate Conception because it shows implicit evidence for the doctrine. Remembering that all New Testament fulfillments are far greater and more powerful than their Old Testament types one can only conclude that Mary is immaculately conceived. Eve and Adam were created without sin; Jesus and Mary fulfill their types. Just as the new Adam, Jesus is sinless, so too the new Eve, Mary. If Mary was not con-ceived sinless she would be a inferior type to Eve. This is why many fathers of the church, such as St. Augustine in his work “Nature and Grace” , freely and confidently proclaimed Mary to be sinless.



Another type Mary fulfills is the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark of the Covenant contained three things: the Manna from heaven, the rod of Aaron (a sign of high priestly Authority), and the ten words (or Ten Commandments) of God. Mary carried in her womb the fulfillment of all three of those things. Jesus Christ is the new manna from heaven and is the new covenant high priest who rules the new kingdom (the church with a rod of iron). Like the ten words carried in the Ark, Jesus is the Word of God incarnate himself. The United States Catholic Bishops show how St. Luke presented Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant in parallels in their pastoral letter. For example, if one compares 2 Sam 6 with Luke 1 they will find Mary being presented as the new Ark. In 2 Sam 6:2 David arose and went to Judah; in Luke 1:39 Mary arose and went to Judah. In 2 Sam 6:9 David ask “How can the ark of the Lord come to Me”. In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth uses almost identical language saying “ why is this granted me that the Mother of my Lord should come to me.” In 2 Sam 6:11 the Ark remained for three months. In Lk 1:56 Mary stays three months with Elizabeth. In 2 Sam 6:12 David rejoices; in Lk 1:47 Mary’s spirit rejoices. In 2 Sam 6:16 there is leaping and dancing. In Lk 1:41 the babe leaps in Elizabeth's womb. Also interesting to note is the Ark of the Covenant was overshadowed by the Spirit of God. Luke used similar language that the Septuagint (Greek translations of the Old Testament) use in Exodus describing the Ark being overshadowed to describe Mary being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Clearly St. Luke sees Mary as typologically the fulfillment of the Ark.

Scripture Scholar Dr. Scott Hahn also shows how gospel writer John reveals Mary as the New Ark in the Book of Revelation(Rev 11:19). The ark of God’s heavenly covenant is revealed, and in the very next verse(Rev 12:1) the woman, Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, appears. Dr. Hahn reminds readers that when Scripture was written there were no chapters and verses, and when the Book of Revelation is read in its immediate and typological context the Ark is revealed as Mary.


Fathers of the Church like St. Hippolytus, St. Jerome, and St. Ambrose had openly proclaimed Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant and many of the fathers of the church also spoke of her being sinless. The earliest hymns written in praise of Mary spoke of Mary as “with-out stain or blemish” and also spoke of her as “Ark Gilded by the Holy Ghost”. If Mary is truly a fulfillment of the Ark then her Immaculate Conception makes sense. What the old ark contained could not be touched by sin. One had to be sanctified from sin just to carry the ark due to its precious cargo(1 Chron 15:12-14). Uzzuh was himself killed because he was a sinful man who touched the ark (2Sam 6:6-8). If the old covenant ark could not be touched by sin because of what it carried, how much more would the new covenant fulfillment of the ark (Mary) not be touched by sin for what she carried. For the wisdom of God will not dwell in a body under the debt of sin(Wis 1:4), and Jesus Christ is wisdom personified(1 Cor 1:24). Hence Mary’s Immaculate Conception is biblically implicit and made explicit by apostolic tradition and councils such as other Christian dogmas like the Trinity.:liturgy::thumbsup::wave:
 
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Athanasias

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The IC not only contradicts scripture it outright denis scriptural truth...And places a deistic identity on someone other than Christ...
That is TRUTH.

How does the Immaculate conception make Mary into a God?
 
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Athanasias

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yep. the old adam and old eve were created without sin, but fell into sin and caused the race to be fallen

the new adam and new eve were created without sin, and by their obedience caused the race to be redeemed


Very very good points!

Coincidentally from a biblcal and historicval perspective Mary is the Second Eve.

From another Paper I wrote in my Mariology class:

Mary in the New Testament is also a fulfillment of certain types namely Eve and the Ark of the Covenant. In Genesis Eve is described as a “Women” who disobeyed God. Genesis describes one woman (Eve) and one man (Adam) who are created initially immaculate. The woman and man are approached by one angel (who is fallen, the Devil) and they choose freely to dis-obey God and eat one food from one tree that would cause death for a whole race. In Luke’s gospel the same is seen but only in reversed and redemptive way. In Luke one woman (Mary) is visited by one angel (who is holy, Gabriel) and this one woman freely chooses to obey and ac-cept God’s plan for her, unlike Eve. This one women would give birth to one man -Jesus Christ- who would die for all on a tree and give the world one food to eat that would give life to the whole human race (Holy Communion). Mary is truly the fulfillment of Eve as Jesus is of Adam. Catholic Scripture scholar Dr. Scott Hahn demonstrates that Mary is called by the title “woman” by Jesus himself and in Rev 12:1-17 one discovers that the “woman” who is described as a ful-fillment of Eve is the Mother of God herself.
The Fathers of the Church saw Mary as the fulfillment of Eve too. St. Justin Martyr in 155 A.D. made direct comparisons to Mary and Eve on a redemptive level. St. Ireneuas spoke of Mary as a fulfillment of Eve stating that in Luke’s Gospel Mary loosed the knot of sin that Eve bound the world in. Even as early as the late 1st century the writings of Mathetes spoke of a new incorrupt Eve who was a Virgin.


The typology of Mary as New Eve is important to the Immaculate Conception because it shows implicit evidence for the doctrine. Remembering that all New Testament fulfillments are far greater and more powerful than their Old Testament types one can only conclude that Mary is immaculately conceived. Eve and Adam were created without sin; Jesus and Mary fulfill their types. Just as the new Adam, Jesus is sinless, so too the new Eve, Mary. If Mary was not con-ceived sinless she would be a inferior type to Eve. This is why many fathers of the church, such as St. Augustine in his work “Nature and Grace” , freely and confidently proclaimed Mary to be sinless.



Another type Mary fulfills is the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark of the Covenant contained three things: the Manna from heaven, the rod of Aaron (a sign of high priestly Authority), and the ten words (or Ten Commandments) of God. Mary carried in her womb the fulfillment of all three of those things. Jesus Christ is the new manna from heaven and is the new covenant high priest who rules the new kingdom (the church with a rod of iron). Like the ten words carried in the Ark, Jesus is the Word of God incarnate himself. The United States Catholic Bishops show how St. Luke presented Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant in parallels in their pastoral letter. For example, if one compares 2 Sam 6 with Luke 1 they will find Mary being presented as the new Ark. In 2 Sam 6:2 David arose and went to Judah; in Luke 1:39 Mary arose and went to Judah. In 2 Sam 6:9 David ask “How can the ark of the Lord come to Me”. In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth uses almost identical language saying “ why is this granted me that the Mother of my Lord should come to me.” In 2 Sam 6:11 the Ark remained for three months. In Lk 1:56 Mary stays three months with Elizabeth. In 2 Sam 6:12 David rejoices; in Lk 1:47 Mary’s spirit rejoices. In 2 Sam 6:16 there is leaping and dancing. In Lk 1:41 the babe leaps in Elizabeth's womb. Also interesting to note is the Ark of the Covenant was overshadowed by the Spirit of God. Luke used similar language that the Septuagint (Greek translations of the Old Testament) use in Exodus describing the Ark being overshadowed to describe Mary being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Clearly St. Luke sees Mary as typologically the fulfillment of the Ark.

Scripture Scholar Dr. Scott Hahn also shows how gospel writer John reveals Mary as the New Ark in the Book of Revelation(Rev 11:19). The ark of God’s heavenly covenant is revealed, and in the very next verse(Rev 12:1) the woman, Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, appears. Dr. Hahn reminds readers that when Scripture was written there were no chapters and verses, and when the Book of Revelation is read in its immediate and typological context the Ark is revealed as Mary.


Fathers of the Church like St. Hippolytus, St. Jerome, and St. Ambrose had openly proclaimed Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant and many of the fathers of the church also spoke of her being sinless. The earliest hymns written in praise of Mary spoke of Mary as “with-out stain or blemish” and also spoke of her as “Ark Gilded by the Holy Ghost”. If Mary is truly a fulfillment of the Ark then her Immaculate Conception makes sense. What the old ark contained could not be touched by sin. One had to be sanctified from sin just to carry the ark due to its precious cargo(1 Chron 15:12-14). Uzzuh was himself killed because he was a sinful man who touched the ark (2Sam 6:6-8). If the old covenant ark could not be touched by sin because of what it carried, how much more would the new covenant fulfillment of the ark (Mary) not be touched by sin for what she carried. For the wisdom of God will not dwell in a body under the debt of sin(Wis 1:4), and Jesus Christ is wisdom personified(1 Cor 1:24). Hence Mary’s Immaculate Conception is biblically implicit and made explicit by apostolic tradition and councils such as other Christian dogmas like the Trinity.:liturgy::thumbsup::wave:
 
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Jet_A_Jockey

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I have difficulty with the IC dogma because of its extrabiblical sources. From my point of view, it looks like it started with one central question. "How could the Holy Son of God be born into an ordinary sinning person?" From that point, we fill in the blanks. Since the belief is that the Son couldn't be born of a normal 'sinner', we need to figure out how to make His vessel sinless. There is the Immaculate Conception, and to further build this thinking, as well as help ward off any naysayers of the chastity of Mary, perpetual virginity. And then since sin equals death, and we've concluded that mary is sinless, we have the Assumption of Mary.

It just looked to me like a jigsaw puzzle that someone cut their own shapes to fit. I apologize for not being extremely versed on these subjects, as it is just less than informed opinion. Please understand that I'm not trying to make an attack on anyone's belief system, I'm just putting my understanding of it out there. Feel free to correct me, I am always willing to learn.
 
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Athanasias

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One problem, Jesus wasn't created. You are equating Mary with Jesus here and that's blasphemous, even if you don't see it that way.


No he is not equating Mary with Jesus. Jesus was not created but Jesus was the New Adam. St Paul is the one who teaches Jesus as the New Adam(1 Cor 15:45). Mary is created but St John teaches that Mary is the Second Eve(Rev 12:1-5). It is a simple as that.

Peace be with you!

In Jesus love
Athanasias
 
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