• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Immaculate Conception Paradox.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟211,285.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

That is correct!
 
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,120
4,198
Yorktown VA
✟191,432.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
13,113
4,640
Eretz
✟376,103.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private

I have read it all. It may be helpful how YOU define "original sin"...do you use the Roman Catholic definition? Is everyone GUILTY of Adam's sin? So are we all guilty of the "original sin" because we all die or just suffer the consequences because death was brought into the world and we all also sin. I agree with option 2.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟211,285.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

NO sir. I always use the BIBLE definition!

Original sin is defined as “the moral corruption we possess as a consequence of Adam’s sin, resulting in a sinful disposition manifesting itself in habitually sinful behavior.” The doctrine of original sin focuses particularly on its effect on our internal nature and our standing before God.

Romans 5, says.......
“As by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; so death came upon all men.”

And then it adds “For all have sinned…” and we get that elsewhere, “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,” and so forth.

So, original sin? That’s what it did. It brought a separation between Adam and Eve and God, which meant that the same separation was true of all of their descendants and all of their descendants are sinners.

There are actually 3 theological perspectives on Original sin and they are:

Pelagianism:
This view says that Adam’s sin had no effect upon the souls of his descendants other than that he provided a sinful example.

Arminianism:
Arminians believe Adam’s original sin has resulted in the rest of mankind inheriting a corrupt, sinful nature, which causes us to sin in the same way that a cat’s nature causes it to meow—it comes naturally. According to this view, man cannot stop sinning on his own.

Calvinism:
The Calvinistic doctrine of original sin states that Adam’s sin has resulted not only in our having a sin nature, but also in our incurring guilt before God for which we deserve punishment. Being conceived with original sin upon us results in our inheriting a sin nature so wicked that Jeremiah describes the human heart as “deceitful above all things and beyond cure.” Not only was Adam found guilty because he sinned, but his sin was imputed to us, making us guilty and deserving of his punishment (death) as well.

There are two views as to why Adam’s sin should be imputed to us.
#1.
The human race was within Adam in seed form; thus, when Adam sinned, we sinned in him. This is similar to the biblical teaching that Levi (a descendant of Abraham) paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham even though Levi was not born until hundreds of years later.

#2
The other main view is that Adam served as our representative, and so, when he sinned, we were found guilty as well. That is called "Federal Headship".
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
13,113
4,640
Eretz
✟376,103.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private

So you DO keep to the RCC doctrine...Your #2. So we disagree...i was not in the garden and that sin was not mine. I only suffer the consequence of that sin that brought death to the world that condemns me for MY sin. All of their offspring were born into a fallen world.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟211,285.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

You have a really good way of twisting words to make them acceptable to your understanding. I suggest you read the Bible more and spend less time on the internet forums!

YOU were actually in the Garden. YOU and me were in Adams seed.
When he sinned we sinned!

Please....Please take the time to do the work and grasp the meaning of Federal Headship!

We...all humanity was in Adams seed!!! Scripture is clear that every human being is descended from Adam and Eve. The only way that is not possible is that YOU believe in Evolution!

Romans 5:12 ......
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned".

1 Corth 15:22........
"For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

What YOU are trying to do is validate the RCC teaching that Mary was sinless through the Immaculate Conception and doing so at the expence of ignoring and rejecting the word of God.
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
13,113
4,640
Eretz
✟376,103.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private


I read it just fine. Seed does not make a person. So no I was not in the garden. Romans does not say what you are saying. We all die because death was brought into the world and we are born into it and die because we too sin. I don't believe in the IC of Mary and I also do not believe in their doctrine of original sin...
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,626
14,047
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,410,477.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Since "Federal Headship" can be found nowhere in the Scriptures, according to the standards you use for other doctrine, we can safely reject it as a man made doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟211,285.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Since "Federal Headship" can be found nowhere in the Scriptures, according to the standards you use for other doctrine, we can safely reject it as a man made doctrine.

Then by using your own words we can then say that the Immaculate Conception is a man made doctrine.........along with Purgatory, the Assumption of Mary, prayers to the saints and Apostolic sucession.

We can also then, by your own words reject the Trinity as well.

However.....if you would have read my post I did not say that Federal Headsip is in the Bible.

Now to help you I will clearly and simply say that Federal headship is not explicitly stated in the Bible; it is an interpretive tool and not a biblical truth. We do know that death began with Adam's sin and that the origin of the separation between people and God can be traced back to Adam's fatal choice.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟211,285.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

I have no desire to argue the point with you. All I can say is that The covenant being made with Adam, not only for himself, but for his posterity; all mankind, descending from him by ordinary generation, sinned in him, and fell with him, in his first transgression.

By your own words then, I can see that since you were NOT THERE with Abraham then you also do not accept the "Abrahamic Seed Covenant" as well.

If you will do the Bible study you will then see that you have a real problem
with your own choices. Study the "Abrahamic Seed Covenant" and then get back to me.

If not, Then there is really nothing else to say is there.
 
Reactions: Albion
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
13,113
4,640
Eretz
✟376,103.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private

You have no desire because you can't. I already explained to you we did not sin "in him" but suffer the consequences of the fall...and one has nothing to do with the other...it is YOUR scenario that requires you to fix the problem...I don't have the problem that needs explaining...
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
13,113
4,640
Eretz
✟376,103.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private

Why would we reject the Trinity, it is biblical, right at His baptism. SMH
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You have no desire because you can't. I already explained to you we did not sin "in him" but suffer the consequences of the fall.

What, then, should we make of the Bible verses that say man is born in sin and is sinful from birth?
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
13,113
4,640
Eretz
✟376,103.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
What, then, should we make of the Bible verses that say man is born in sin and is sinful from birth?

Well we are all born into a fallen world, right...??
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟211,285.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Why would we reject the Trinity, it is biblical, right at His baptism. SMH

Because the person I was speaking to said that the Words "FEDERAL HEADSIP" is not in the Bible.

To him I replied......."so then by your logic, we should not accept the TRINITY because that word is not found in the Bible either.
 
Reactions: Albion
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟211,285.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

You do...NO you dont....yes you do!

This is nothing but a teenage discussion!

You have rejected the Bible and Seed Covenant teaching from the Bible.

YOosee my friend, The Abrahamic covenant in Genesis, lays the groundwork for the nation of Israel and the coming Messiah, through whom God would bless all the nations of the world. The Mosaic covenant continues God’s dealings with the nation of Israel, the descendants of Abraham, calling them to reflect the glory of their Lord to the nations around them. The covenant made with King David pointed ahead of Israel to the coming Messiah, the one who would rule perfectly on David’s throne forever. It was not until Jesus came as Israel’s Messiah, however, that the covenants with man were kept perfectly and fulfilled. Jesus came to ratify the new covenant, promised in the Law and the Prophets, bringing along with it the eschatological blessings promised to God’s people.

But YOU have rejected that SEED Covenant !!!!

There is nothing else we need to discuss.

When YOU miss that one.....you will miss everything else.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Well we are all born into a fallen world, right...??
Okay, but what can we make of the Biblical information telling us that all men are born in sin and that they sin from birth, if it's not that Original Sin is really sin?

That's not saying to us that physical losses of the kind that Adam and Eve suffered are passed on to us or that we have an inclination towards committing sin later in life.
 
Upvote 0

Abaxvahl

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2018
874
748
Earth
✟33,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private

Not gonna pick anything from this false dichotomy: you've read too much into the verse, it's as simple as that.
 
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟211,285.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Not gonna pick anything from this false dichotomy: you've read too much into the verse, it's as simple as that.

LOL!...........I read too much into that Scripture?????

Are you serious????

Since you believe that Mary is that woman.....where is her name in the Scripture?

Talk about READING into a Scripture. I would think that you could come up with something a lot better than that!
 
Upvote 0

Abaxvahl

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2018
874
748
Earth
✟33,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private

I ain't said nothing about her being that woman. Yes, I am dead serious, you've read too much into it getting yourself all twisted up in a false dichotomy. I need to come up with nothing more than the truth to be right.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.