Immaculate Conception Paradox.

[chevyontheriver]

My dear friend......READ THE BOOK!

It may be impossible for you to believe but I have read the book more than once. And comprehended it better than you have.

You need to explain how the pain in childbirth for the daughters of Eve was 'multiplied' (your word) if someone without sin had to have absolutely no pain in childbirth. What was multiplied by what? Where is your starting point if it is not Eve before the fall? How do you explain Genesis 3:16? The 'multiplied' part?

 

[Major1]

It may be impossible for you to believe but I have read the book more than once. And comprehended it better than you have.

You need to explain how the pain in childbirth for the daughters of Eve was 'multiplied' (your word) if someone without sin had to have absolutely no pain in childbirth. What was multiplied by what? Where is your starting point if it is not Eve before the fall? How do you explain Genesis 3:16? The 'multiplied' part?

IF that is true......then why would you CHANGE the words???????

YOU just said........
"You need to explain how the pain in childbirth for the daughters of Eve was 'multiplied'"

THAT is not what GOD SAID is it?? God said in Genesis 3:16......
"Unto the WOMAN (EVE) he said, I will greatly multiply YOUR sorrow and YOUR conception; in sorrow YOU shalt bring forth children;"

Not DAUGHTERS......YOU ---EVE!

The curse of sin was God's judgment on Adan and Eve or disobedience which is SIN.

I really should not have to explain such an elementary subject as this but,
"multiplies" = “her sorrow and her conception,” that is, her sorrow generally, but especially in connection with pregnancy and childbirth!!!!

Hebrew concordance says......"In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children" —
"With more pain than any other creatures undergo in bringing forth their young: a lasting and terrible proof this that human nature is in a fallen state!

All of this was BEFORE she had children and AFTER she disobeyed God.

Her judgment for her sin was PAIN in childbirth = Original Sin.

Whether you want to admitt it or not.....that Includes MARY and ALL women and eliminates her from being the Woman of Rev. 12.

 

[Major1]

Modus tollens (p -> q, not q, therefore not p) applied to these assertions

If a woman were sinless, she would not have pain in childbirth.
Mary suffered pain in childbirth.​

gives that Mary was not sinless.

That is the OP's argument, as I understand it.

Correct.

It is just not that hard.

 

[Major1]

The woman has twelve stars around her head. What do the twelve stars mean? They must mean something! Perhaps if we can find out what they mean, it might tell us something which will hep us answer this question.

I have wondered about the meaning of the twelve stars, to date it remains a mystery to me. Hopefully somebody will understand this better.

The .....“crown of twelve stars” pictures royalty and relates to the 12 tribes of Israel. The “birth” pains refer to the period before the birth of Christ when Israel was waiting for redemption by the Messiah when compared Rom. 8:22-23.

 

[Major1]

I have my own separate issues with the Immaculate Conception and with the perpetual virginity of Mary, largely having to do with the church's view of women, but that's a discussion for another time and place.

@Albion , you're right that if Jesus was somehow born in a way that didn't even stretch Mary's hymen, then that would presumably be less painful than traditional delivery.

On the point of the OP, however, even if Jesus was born in the normal way, I don't think it necessarily follows that if Mary experienced pain, then Mary was sinful. Mary could be sinless and still have an ordinary human body that felt pain and was mortal. We have the example of Jesus, who was definitely sinless, and yet felt pain and was mortal.

However......Since Mary was a HUMAN BEING, descended from EVE and Eve was under the curse of Original Sin, then SO was all the women from Eve including MARY.

Are you suggesting that of all the women to give birth in the world....only Mary did not experince pains in delivering her child.

 

[PloverWing]

However......Since Mary was a HUMAN BEING, descended from EVE and Eve was under the curse of Original Sin, then SO was all the women fo=rom Eve including MARY.

Are you suggesting that of all the women to give birth in the world....only Mary did not experince pains in delivering her child.

I'm suggesting that I don't accept this premise:

For all people P, if P experiences pain in childbirth, then P is sinful.​

I think you're getting carried away with your view of the curse in Genesis. In general, Genesis outlines some of the overall brokenness of the fallen human condition: Pain in childbirth, thorns and thistles in the garden, domineering husbands. But I think it's too much to say that all of these apply to each individual person if and only if that person is sinful. For example, I think it's theoretically possible that if Jesus had planted a garden, he might have had weeds in his garden, even though he was sinless, because weeds are something humans in general have to put up with. (I know you've said you don't accept Jesus as an example of a sinless human. Nevertheless, I insist that he does qualify.)

If I accept your premise, then your conclusion follows. But I don't accept your premise.

As to this assertion:

However......Since Mary was a HUMAN BEING, descended from EVE and Eve was under the curse of Original Sin, then SO was all the women fo=rom Eve including MARY.

that is the whole question, isn't it? Catholics assert that Mary was protected from Original Sin because of her unique relationship with Jesus. You (and most Protestants) say that she was not protected from Original Sin. Maybe it's better to argue about that point directly, instead of going the route of arguing about pain in childbirth.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

However......Since Mary was a HUMAN BEING, descended from EVE and Eve was under the curse of Original Sin, then SO was all the women fo=rom Eve including MARY.

Are you suggesting that of all the women to give birth in the world....only Mary did not experince pains in delivering her child.

Why would ALL women be guilty of Eve's sin? Because they are not. Only Eve is. She is the one who sinned. All women suffer the CONSEQUENCES of Eve's sin...as well as death...

 

[chevyontheriver]

IF that is true......then why would you CHANGE the words???????

YOU just said........
"You need to explain how the pain in childbirth for the daughters of Eve was 'multiplied'"

THAT is not what GOD SAID is it?? God said in Genesis 3:16......
"Unto the WOMAN (EVE) he said, I will greatly multiply YOUR sorrow and YOUR conception; in sorrow YOU shalt bring forth children;"

Not DAUGHTERS......YOU ---EVE!

The curse of sin was God's judgment on Adan and Eve or disobedience which is SIN.

I really should not have to explain such an elementary subject as this but,
"multiplies" = “her sorrow and her conception,” that is, her sorrow generally, but especially in connection with pregnancy and childbirth!!!!

Hebrew concordance says......In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children —
"With more pain than any other creatures undergo in bringing forth their young: a lasting and terrible proof this that human nature is in a fallen state!

All of this was BEFORE she had children and AFTER she disobeyed God.

Her judgment for her sin was PAIN in childbirth = Original Sin.

Whether you want to admitt it or not.....that Includes MARY and ALL women and eliminates her from being the Woman of Rev. 12.

I think we are speaking two different languages here. You use some of the same words I might use but we aren't communicating. I'll leave it at that. We aren't communicating and I doubt we can communicate. And I'm not willing to go to extraordinary lengths to try to communicate with you. So I'm done. You have proven nothing to me for your efforts.

 

[Major1]

I think we are speaking two different languages here. You use some of the same words I might use but we aren't communicating. I'll leave it at that. We aren't communicating and I doubt we can communicate. And I'm not willing to go to extraordinary lengths to try to communicate with you. So I'm done. You have proven nothing to me for your efforts.

So then you can not respond to the original question posed!

Do not feel bad, I expected nothing less at all.

It is actually real easy. Mary is either NOT the woman in Revelation 12, or
she is subject to "Original Sin".

Your responce demonstrates that you want both but can have neither.

 

[Major1]

Why would ALL women be guilty of Eve's sin? Because they are not. Only Eve is. She is the one who sinned. All women suffer the CONSEQUENCES of Eve's sin...as well as death...

Why?

Does anyone read the Bible???

Romans 3:23........
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Is there ANY Bible Scripture that says Mary is exempt from all the Scriptures that say ALL have sinned??????

I am amazed at what you just wrote. You posted........
"Why would ALL women be guilty of Eve's sin? Because they are not. Only Eve is.

Then in the very same sentence you said.........
"She is the one who sinned. All women suffer the CONSEQUENCES of Eve's sin...as well as death...".

YOU just agreed with what I said. ALL WOMEN SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF EVE'S SIN!!!!!!

YES!!!!!

As the desendants of Adam and Eve, as descendants we now carry the sin nature. We experience the consequences of living in a fallen world as well as the ill effects of our own sins.

 

[Major1]

So then you can not respond to the original question posed!

Do not feel bad, I expected nothing less at all.

It is actually real easy. Mary is either NOT the woman in Revelation 12, or
she is subject to "Original Sin".

Your responce demonstrates that you want both but can have neither.

I am glad YOU think it is funny because as a result --- you have shown the falsehood of a doctrine of men.

 

[Major1]

I'm suggesting that I don't accept this premise:

For all people P, if P experiences pain in childbirth, then P is sinful.​

I think you're getting carried away with your view of the curse in Genesis. In general, Genesis outlines some of the overall brokenness of the fallen human condition: Pain in childbirth, thorns and thistles in the garden, domineering husbands. But I think it's too much to say that all of these apply to each individual person if and only if that person is sinful. For example, I think it's theoretically possible that if Jesus had planted a garden, he might have had weeds in his garden, even though he was sinless, because weeds are something humans in general have to put up with. (I know you've said you don't accept Jesus as an example of a sinless human. Nevertheless, I insist that he does qualify.)

If I accept your premise, then your conclusion follows. But I don't accept your premise.

As to this assertion:



that is the whole question, isn't it? Catholics assert that Mary was protected from Original Sin because of her unique relationship with Jesus. You (and most Protestants) say that she was not protected from Original Sin. Maybe it's better to argue about that point directly, instead of going the route of arguing about pain in childbirth.

That is absolutely correct.

The Catholic position you just posted has NO BIBLLE Scriptures to support it. It is a man made dogma and if not valid as doctrine.

Original sin effects ALL people.

Is Romans 3:23..........in YOUR Bible?
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Have you READ Psalms 53:1.......
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good."

Do YOU accept that or do YOU have a Bible Scripture that says.......
"Romans 3:23 and Psalms 53:1 do not apply to Mary".

What about Mark 10:18 where Jesus Himself said.......
"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone".

Do you think that Jesus was lieing?????

There are absolutly NO/NONE/ZERO Bible Scriptures that support or suggest Mary’s immaculate conception. IF there was any.....all the Catholic on this forum would have already posted them!!!! YOU and I both know that.

So, To justify Mary’s bodily assumption, Catholics refer to Revelation 12:1-6 as implicitly alluding to the doctrine saying that MARY IS THE WOMAN in Rev. 12.

All I did was to expose to all of you that if you believe that Mary is the Woman in Rev. 12, you must then also accept that SHE IS AFFECTED by Original Sin which destroys the Catholic teaching of the Immaculate Conception.

Why not text your local priest and present this PARADOX to him.
Why not the Vatican and ask them.
Why not text the Pope and ask him.

Know what.........THEY ALREADY KNOW THE PROBLEM and are hoping no one asks!

 

[Major1]

I think we are speaking two different languages here. You use some of the same words I might use but we aren't communicating. I'll leave it at that. We aren't communicating and I doubt we can communicate. And I'm not willing to go to extraordinary lengths to try to communicate with you. So I'm done. You have proven nothing to me for your efforts.

I agree completely. I am speaking and using the Bible.

 

[Trusting in Him]

Only God is without sin.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

Mary has died.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 6:23)

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

If May was sinless, why has she died. If death is by sin (Romans 5:12) and she died, what does that tell you? Mary was no better than the rest of us and needed salvation as much as everyone else.

Jesus said to Mary.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. (John 2:4)

This is not recorded in scripture for nothing, Jesus did not regard Mary as holy, because she was not! Worshiping, or praying to Mary is idolatry!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Why?

Does anyone read the Bible???

Romans 3:23........
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Is there ANY Bible Scripture that says Mary is exempt from all the Scriptures that say ALL have sinned??????

I am amazed at what you just wrote. You posted........
"Why would ALL women be guilty of Eve's sin? Because they are not. Only Eve is.

Then in the very same sentence you said.........
"She is the one who sinned. All women suffer the CONSEQUENCES of Eve's sin...as well as death...".

YOU just agreed with what I said. ALL WOMEN SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF EVE'S SIN!!!!!!

YES!!!!!

As the desendants of Adam and Eve, as descendants we now carry the sin nature. We experience the consequences of living in a fallen world as well as the ill effects of our own sins.

So you agree with me. No one is guilty of "original sin". We can suffer the consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve. Only THEY were in the garden. There is a big difference!

 

[PloverWing]

Is Romans 3:23..........in YOUR Bible?

Have you READ Psalms 53:1.......

Do you think that Jesus was lieing?????

Know what.........THEY ALREADY KNOW THE PROBLEM and are hoping no one asks!

Chill.

This kind of shouting isn't going to lead to anything productive.

Catholic priests and theologians disagree with me about some things, but they're not ignorant of the Bible, and they're not stupid. A respectful dialogue about the Immaculate Conception might be interesting at some point, but shouting at people won't persuade them, just like shouting at me wouldn't persuade me.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

It is likely Eve had some labor pain before the fall. Maybe not much. I wasn't there. And possible Mary had a similar and perhaps minimal pain. Again, I wasn't there. Isaiah 66 would indicate a minimal pain, if you accept that as at all messianic.

My first priest's wife (EO we have married priests) was in labor with their fourth child and gave birth when they were both sleeping. He woke up to hear her saying, "Uh father, go get the nurse!"

 

[chevyontheriver]

My first priest's wife (EO we have married priests) was in labor with their fourth child and gave birth when they were both sleeping. He woke up to hear her saying, "Uh father, go get the nurse!"

Which is to say such pain is variable. And Mary likely had a notably easy time of it or we would never have combined it with Isaiah 66.

 

[Major1]

Chill.

This kind of shouting isn't going to lead to anything productive.

Catholic priests and theologians disagree with me about some things, but they're not ignorant of the Bible, and they're not stupid. A respectful dialogue about the Immaculate Conception might be interesting at some point, but shouting at people won't persuade them, just like shouting at me wouldn't persuade me.

Very nice responce as it allowed you to not respond to one single question posed to you!

 

[Major1]

So you agree with me. No one is guilty of "original sin". We can suffer the consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve. Only THEY were in the garden. There is a big difference!

I guess that we are not speaking to each other in English.

We all suffer from Original Sin.

Instead of the time you spend on the internet forum....take the time to goggle the meaning of "Federal Headship".

It would also be helpful if you would read the Bible explination on this.

Romans 5:12-14.........
" Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law."

Paul is saying very clearly that all men share in the consequences of Adam’s sin. When he states, “because all sinned,” Paul is referring to our union with Adam in his transgression of God’s command, which is the Federal Headship" Bible doctrine.

Allow me to help you further.....Both Adam and Christ stood before God’s covenant as a representative for their people. Adam, as a type of Christ, undertook the test of the covenant of works (Gen 2:16–17) on behalf of all his natural offspring (his failure affecting them all), just as Christ fulfilled the covenant of works on behalf of all his spiritual offspring (his victorious obedience gaining them salvation).

This principle of covenant headship is vital not only to Original Sin but also to the imputation of Christ’s righteousness in the gospel. Paul makes this connection clear: ......

Romans 5:15 confirms this.........
“For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many”.