Immaculate conception of Mary?

[Rhamiel]

we do not believe that her mother was sinless

part of this belief comes from the book of Genesis
when God cursed the Serpent this is what was said
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

those who are in sin are described as slaves to the devil
a slave does the will of his master
enmity is to actively go against something, like a state of warfare
slaves to sin, those dead in sin, do not have enmity with sin or the devil

how could Mary be sinless?
by the grace of God

 

[mmksparbud]

(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(1Jn 4:7) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.


(1Jn 5:1) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.



(Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


She was as sinless as all followers of God, from what I read. Was she translated?? Sinlessness would mean translation--if she was sinless she would have deserved translation, or then Enoch and Elijah would be far more worthy than she. Both of them were written down, I see nothing that states she was.

Christ came to die for our sins--He came to show us that, as He, though fully divine, He was fully human, and in His humanity was so close to His father that he was sinless. And that we, as His adopted brothers, may attain that kind of closeness in spirit. He was fully human, which did not require Him to have a sinless mother, for no man has been born of a sinless woman. Her sins were covered through the observance of the sacrificial laws that she and all other Jews followed. And as they were sinless when the sacrifice cleansed their sins, so was she. Do you realize that what you're saying is that she is greater than Christ?? According to you, she was born sinless, lived sinless, and died sinless---Christ was not sinless, He became sin at the cross, when all sin was placed on Him, yet she was kept sinless??---don't think so---nobody gets a free ride. It was the death of the sinless Son of God that saves us, not her sinlessness. He was sinless till the cross--

 

[Galilee63]

The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God - by Bishop Alexander (Mileant)

This is a short post in relation to how our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God was first "obedient" to God The Most High as a Child and then as a Teenager and Adult.

Obedience to God The Most High is living without sin and if with sin - repenting regularly in accordance with God The Most High's teachings back when our Lady Mary was growing up.

Either way one describes and questions our Blessed Virgin Mary in relation to sin - our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God as Mary while growing up - was completely "obedient" to God The Most High - which later led to God The Most High making evident to the world that The Eternal Father had "chosen" His Mary - "His highly favoured one" - His Child of God whom was a Virgin to conceive His only Begotten Son Emmanuel/Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Content: Honoring the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Life of the Virgin Mary. Contemporary Appearances of the Mother of God.

"All creatures, the assembly of Angels and the human race rejoice in You, O Blessed One."

From the early times of Christianity, the Blessed Virgin Mary, because of Her great virtues, Her help to the needy, and Her preeminent role in God's plan for the salvation of mankind, held a distinct position of admiration and love among Christians.

The honoring of the Holy Virgin began from the time when the Archangel Gabriel greeted Her with the words: "Rejoice, O Blessed One, the Lord is with Thee! Blessed art Thou among women!" announcing to Her the mystery of the conception of the Son of God. A few days later with the words "Blessed is the Fruit of Thy womb," the righteous Elizabeth saluted the pure Virgin. St. Luke explains in his Gospel that the Holy Spirit revealed to Elizabeth that Mary had become the Mother of the Lord, the promised Savior of mankind (Luke 1:28-42).

The Orthodox Church expresses reverence toward the Blessed Virgin by the many feast days commemorating the various events in Her life. In prayers the Virgin Mary is called Theotokos, which in Greek means the Mother of God, since the One Who was born from Her was at the time of conception and always will be the true God.

Many Christian preachers and poets composed prayers, songs of praise (called Akathists) (from the Greek, meaning not-sitting) and inspirational sermons in honor of the Virgin Mary. With all this reverence for the Blessed Virgin Mary, Theotokos, it is consoling and enlightening to learn how she lived, how she prepared herself, and how she blossomed to such a spiritual height as to become the receptacle for the incarnate Word of God.

Several prophecies of the Old Testament foretold of the incarnation of the Son of God and of the blessed Woman who would become a tool for the salvation of mankind. The very first promise concerning the Redeemer, heard by our fallen ancestors Adam and Eve, contained a prophecy about a special Woman. God said to the devil: "I shall put enmity between thee and the Woman, and between thy seed and Her Seed" (Genesis 3:15). It should be noted that during the time of the Old Testament the progeny were always called the seed or descendent of a male parent. Only here is the Redeemer-to-Come referred to as the Seed of the Woman, and this was the first indication that He would have no human father. Many centuries afterward the prophet Isaiah added important details to this first prophecy of Genesis. He said that the Woman, Who will give birth to the Messiah-Emmanuel, will be a virgin. "God Himself shall give you a sign," explained the prophet Isaiah to the disbelieving descendants of king David, — "the Virgin shall accept into her womb and bear a Son, and shall name Him Emmanuel, which means: God is with us" (Isaiah 7:14). Even though the word "Virgin" did not seem right to the ancient Hebrews, since a birth without fail conjectured conjugal cohabitation, they did not dare to substitute another more "appropriate" word, for example, "woman." Another important message in the prophecy of Isaiah about the coming Messiah is that He will be God Himself. Hence the title Theotokos — "birth-giver of God" — given to the Virgin Mary by the ancient Church.

As we know from early Christian writings, the Apostle Luke the Evangelist personally knew the Virgin Mary and based several chapters of His Gospel on Her recollections. He even quoted Her exact words several times. He was a physician and an artist, and because of his affection for Her, he painted Her portrait, from which later icon painters made copies.

The Birth of the Most Holy Virgin Mary. As time drew near for the Redeemer of the world to be born, there lived in the town of Nazareth, in Galilee, a man by the name of Joachim with his wife Anna. Joachim was a direct descendant of King David but lived a very modest and simple life. Both he and his wife were God-fearing people and were known for their humility and compassion. They never had children and, being very aged, had little chance at having any. However, not willing to despair, they continued to ask God to send them a child. They even made a vow that if they had an infant, they would dedicate that child to the service of God. At that time, to be childless meant to be punished by God for sins. Childlessness was especially difficult for Joachim since, according to prophecy, the Messiah-Christ was to be born into his family line. Owing to their patience and faith, the Lord finally sent them a great joy: Anna had a daughter. The newborn child was given the name of Mary, which means in Hebrew "Mistress-Hope."

Presentation to the Temple. When the Virgin Mary became three years old, Her God-fearing parents prepared themselves to carry out their vow: they took Her to the temple in Jerusalem in order to consecrate Her to God. Mary was left to stay at the temple, in a special school for girls. There She, with the other maidens, was taught the Law of God as well as handiwork. She prayed and read the Scriptures. The Blessed Virgin lived at the temple for approximately eleven years and grew up to be deeply pious and obedient to Him, as well as very modest and industrious. Willing only to serve God, She gave a vow to never marry and to remain forever a virgin.

The Holy Virgin Mary at Joseph's. Since Joachim and Anna were in advanced old age, they did not live for long after Her presentation to the temple, and the Virgin Mary was left an orphan. When She reached Her fourteenth birthday, according to the law, She could no longer stay at the temple and had to wed. The High Priest, being aware of Her vow but reluctant to violate the law of marriage, formally betrothed Her to a distant relative of Hers, the widowed octogenarian Joseph, who promised to care for her and protect her virginity. Joseph lived in the town of Nazareth and also came from the lineage of King David. He was not a wealthy man and worked as a carpenter. Joseph had children from his first marriage: Judah, Simon, James (the Lesser) and Joses (Matthew 13:55), whom the Gospels refer to as "brethren" of Jesus. The Virgin Mary led as modest and solitary a life in the home of Joseph as She did in the temple.

The Annunciation. During Her first year in the house of Joseph, about six months after the appearance of the Angel Gabriel to Zacharias (see Luke 1:8-25), as the birth of the prophet John the Baptist was approaching, the forenamed Angel was sent by God into the town of Nazareth to the Holy Virgin with the joyous news that the Lord had chosen Her to become the Mother of the Savior of the world. The Angel, having appeared, told Her, "Rejoice, O Blessed One! (literally, "filled with grace") The Lord is with Thee! Blessed art Thou amongst women." Mary was puzzled by the words of the Angel and unsure what this greeting was supposed to mean. The Angel continued by saying to Her: "Fear not, Mary, for Thou hast found favor with God. And therefore, Thou wilt bear a Son and shalt name Him Jesus. He shall be great and shall be known as the Son of the Most-high, and to His Kingdom there shall be no end." Still puzzled, Mary asked the Angel: "How can that be, since I know not a man?" The Angel replied that this would be accomplished by the power of the omnipotent God: "The Holy Spirit shall come upon Thee, and the power of the Most-high shall overshadow Thee; therefore, accordingly, that Holy One which shall be born of Thee shall be called the Son of God. Your relative, Elizabeth, not having had any offspring till her very old age, shall soon give birth to a son; for with God nothing shall be impossible." Then Mary humbly answered, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word" (Luke 1:26-38). After this reply the Holy Spirit descended upon Mary, and She conceived the Word of God. Thus, in the most modest circumstances happened the greatest miracle in the life of mankind! Here the Infinite joined the finite; the Light, unapproachable to Angels, descended into the Virgin's womb!

In discussing this Angelic appearance, the Fathers of the Church underline the wisdom of the young Mary. She was careful not to accept Gabriel's message in haste, remembering what happened to Eve when she believed the serpent. Although God decided to make the Virgin Mary the Mother of the Savior, He wanted Her voluntary consent because He never overpowers or disregards the gift of free will that He gave us.
(continued next post).

 

[Galilee63]

Visiting the righteous Elizabeth. Having heard that her relative Elizabeth, the wife of the priest Zacharias, would soon bear a son, Mary hastened to visit her. On entering the house, She saluted Elizabeth. Upon hearing Mary's voice, Elizabeth, being filled with the Holy Spirit, recognized Mary to be worthy to become the Mother of the Lord. She cried out aloud and said: "Blessed art Thou among women, and Blessed is the Fruit of Thy womb! And from whence is such happiness for me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?"

The Virgin Mary, in answer to Elizabeth's greeting, glorified God with the following words: "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my savior. For He hath regarded the low estate of His handmaiden: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For He that is mighty hath done to me great things; and Holy is His name. And His mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation" (Luke 1:46-50). Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned to Nazareth.

When the righteous, aged Joseph learned that Mary was expecting a child, he was scandalized, assuming that something had gone very wrong. Jewish law required unfaithful wives to be mercilessly stoned. But God revealed to Joseph not to be afraid of what had happened and to be kind to Mary. The Angel of God appeared to Joseph in his sleep and told him that Mary would bear a Son through the action of the Holy Spirit, just as the Lord God had predicted through the prophet Isaiah (Is 7:14) and the Angel commanded Joseph to give Him the name "Jesus" Savior — because He shall save people from their sins.

The subsequent Evangelical narratives mention the Virgin Mary in conjunction with the events in the life of Her Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus, they speak of Her in connection with the birth of Christ in Bethlehem, then His circumcision, the worship of the Magi, the offering brought to the temple on the 40th day, the flight into Egypt, settling in Nazareth, traveling to Jerusalem for the feast of Passover when He reached His twelfth birthday, and so forth. We will not dwell on those events here. It should be noted that though the Evangelical references to the Virgin Mary are concise, they give the reader a clear comprehension of Her great moral eminence: Her humility, great faith, patience, courage, obedience to God, love and dedication to Him, and devotion to Her Divine Son. From these incidental but characteristic references we see why, in the words of the Angel, She became worthy "to attain favor from God."

The first miracle performed by Jesus Christ, at the wedding feast in Cana of Galilee, gives us an insight into the great kindness of His Mother and into Her influence on Her Son. These qualities made Her a powerful intercessor for all Christians, especially for those who suffer or are oppressed. Having noticed a shortage of wine at the wedding feast, the Blessed Virgin drew the attention of Her Son to that fact, and though the Lord answered Her cryptically "What is it to Me and You Woman? My hour has not yet come," She was not discouraged by this rebuke, being sure that Her Son would not ignore Her plea. She told the servants: "Whatever He tells you, do this." As can be seen from this forewarning to the servants, this undertaking would come to a favorable end.

Indeed, Her intercession drew divine intervention to an event in the life of a poor, little-known family. Thus happened the first miracle of Jesus, after which "His disciples believed in Him" (John 2:11).

The Gospels depict the Mother of God as having constant concern for Her Son, following Him in His journeys, always ready to help Him at any time, caring for His well-being and tranquility at home, which He always refused to take advantage of. Finally, we see Her standing in indescribable grief by the Cross of Her Crucified Son, hearing His final words and commandments, entrusting Her care to His beloved pupil. Not a word of reproach or despair left Her lips. She conceded all to the will of God. This was the time of Her supreme greatness.

Again, briefly, there is mention of the Virgin Mary in the Acts of the Holy Apostles when, upon Her as well as the Apostles, on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit descended in the form of fiery tongues. After that, according to tradition, She lived some 10 to 20 years. Fulfilling the Lord's will, the Apostle John the Theologian, author of the fourth Gospel, took Her into his home, and with great love, as if being Her own son, he cared for Her till Her very end. When the Christian faith spread to other countries, many Christians came from far off countries to see and hear Her. From that time the Most Holy Virgin Mary became a mother to all of Christ's pupils and a high example of virtue.

The Dormition (called the Assumption by the Roman-Catholic church). Once, as the Holy Virgin prayed on the Mount of Olives (near Jerusalem), the Angel Gabriel appeared to Her, as he had the first time in Nazareth, holding in his hand a branch with a white flower from Paradise, and announced to Her that in three days Her earthly life would come to an end and that the Lord would take Her to Him. The Lord arranged it so that toward that time the Apostles congregated in Jerusalem from the many parts of the world where they were preaching. At the hour of Her end, a bright light illuminated the room in which the Virgin Mary was lying. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself, surrounded by Angels, appeared and received Her most pure soul. The Apostles buried Her holy body, according to Her wish, at the foot of the Mount of Olives in the Garden of Gethsemane, in the cave where reposed the bodies of her parents and of the righteous Joseph. During the burial, many miracles came to pass. By touching the bier of the Mother of God, the blind regained their sight, demons were exorcised, and many diseases were cured.

Three days after the burial of the Theotokos, there arrived belatedly the Apostle Thomas, who had missed the burial. He was very distraught at not having paid his last respects to the Mother of Jesus and wished to see Her body for the last time. When the cave in which the Virgin Mary was buried was opened, Her body was not found, but only Her burial clothes. The Apostles returned to their home in amazement. In the evening during their prayers, they heard Angels singing. Glancing upward, the Apostles saw the Most Holy Virgin surrounded by Angels, in radiant heavenly glory. She said to the Apostles: "Rejoice! I am with you for all the days and nights."

She has been fulfilling this promise to help and defend Christians to the present day, having become our heavenly Mother. For Her great love and all-powerful help, Christians always have honored Her and turned to Her for help, appealing to Her as the "Fervent intercessor for the Christian race, the Joy of all those who grieve, Who did not abandon us after Her Dormition." From these earliest times, following the example of the prophet Isaiah and the righteous Elizabeth, all Christians began to address Her as the Mother of God or Theotokos, and this title was confirmed during the Third Ecumenical Council (431 AD) in Ephesus.

The Most Holy Virgin Mary serves as great example to all those who are striving for perfection. She was the first who decided to dedicate Her whole life to God and who showed that voluntary virginity is higher than wedded life. From the first centuries, in emulating Her and Her Son and other prophets and apostles, many Christians began to pass their life in virginity, prayer, fasting, meditation and contemplation. Thus, the monastic life arose, and there appeared many monasteries which became sources of inspiration for a pious life and spiritual wisdom. Unfortunately, the present ungodly world does not appreciate and even sometimes ridicules the advancement of virginity, disregarding the words of the Lord: "For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs (virgins) for the kingdom of heaven's sake." To this the Lord added this very unambiguous directive: "He who is able to accept it, let him accept it" (Matthew 19:12).

 

[Galilee63]

Bishop Alexander Mileant's post,

"In reviewing the earthly life of the Theotokos, it is essential to emphasize that, just as at the moment of Her greatest glory, when She was chosen to become the Mother of the Savior, as well as at the hour of Her greatest grief, by the prophecy of the righteous Simon, as She stood at the foot of the Cross when "a weapon pierced Her soul," She displayed complete self-control and faith in God. In all events, big or small, She invariably manifested the strength and beauty of Her virtues: humility, perseverance, patience, courage, hope in the Lord and unbounded love for Him! That is why we Christians hold Her in such high esteem and want to emulate Her". (end here).

Luke 2:22-40

Jesus Presented in the Temple

22 When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”[a]), 24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”

25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah. 27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:

29
“Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you may now dismiss your servant in peace.
For my eyes have seen your salvation,
which you have prepared in the sight of all nations:
a light for revelation to the Gentiles,
and the glory of your people Israel.”

33 The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him. 34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

36 There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four.[d] She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. 38 Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.

39 When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. 40 And the child grew and became strong; He was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was on Him.

Luke of whom knew The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God and had spent a great deal of time with The Blessed Virgin Mary did not state which birds were presented. Regardless of what birds were presented to God The Most High - God would have known and accepted (in His Holy Will) the birds presented to Him, given that God had appointed Mary as His Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God when He had appeared to The Blessed Virgin Mary overshadowing Her with His Holy Spirit through Archangel Gabriel and later when God The Most High and The Holy Spirit Gifted The Blessed Virgin Mary again with The Holy Spirit (once as a Child already) while in accompaniment with Jesus' Disciples receiving The Gift of Tongues; all these things were bestowed upon The Blessed Virgin Mary by God The Most High.

Why ever would people wish to discredit (particularly as Christians - followers of Jesus Christ our Saviour - Jesus/God The Most High's "Heavenly Mother of God" - Queen of Heaven, Queen of The Universe, Queen of Earth and Queen of Mercy? "Our Heavenly Mother Mary" we may or may not ever face during judgement by Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit in a complete replay of our life sins, in a complete replay of what we have stated about Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's "Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God" in God's Holy Will.

Luke 2:22-24 - Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord"), and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons." It was one of these two types of birds; Luke doesn't specify which was actually offered. Later, in verse 39, he just says, "So when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city, Nazareth."

 

[bbbbbbb]

It also never says that she sinned.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7856209-2/#post66781346

The Bible also never says that I have sinned. Therefore, shall I conclude that I am incapable of sin and was conceived without original sin?

 

[bbbbbbb]

since "all" have sinned
does that mean animals have sinned?
or what about Jesus?
or the good Angels?
or the Father and the Holy Spirit?

I would say that animals are not capable of making moral choices
and that God and the good angels have never sinned

I would also say that Mary never sinned
not of her own power, but by the grace of God

Not to mention all the plants, rocks, water, planets, comets, and black holes. I suggest that we get real here and understand the obvious context and intent of the statement.

 

[pshun2404]

[QUOTE=narnia59;66786191]Your assertion that "NO apostolic church father (or any until well after the great schism of 1054) ever mentioned such a thing" isn't exactly correct. In some of the earliest of church fathers (Justin Martyr and Irenaeus for example), they refer to Mary as the "new Eve". ...understanding Mary as the New Eve is rooted in the earliest of the church fathers and there are numerous parallels between the two that are present in Scripture. And that implies being created in the same state that Eve was created -- without sin.

[/QUOTE]

That is not at all implied (created without sin, as she not the product of special creation but was born through normal conjugal union) and so has NOTHING to do with her being immaculately conceived....the point does not even relate...again none of the fathers taught by the Apostles (or by those they taught) teach such a doctrine as her being immaculately conceived.

You also said "Why some find it hard to believe that Christ bestowed the greatest measure of grace on his mother, I do not understand.

And yes, may the Lord have mercy on us all. Especially those who have to stand before him having judged and professed his mother to be a sinner."


God is not a respecter of persons, we are all equals at the foot of the cross....and as for judging Mary, I did no such thing....she was a human with a fallen human nature just like the rest of us and gloried and rejoiced in God her SAVIOR...as devoted and pure as she was (more so than most of us since then) she would tell you she still had sin in her life (otherwise why rejoice that her Savior was being born)...at least until being filled with the Holy Spirit and born from above.

Now Mary was the mother of the Christ, but it is not about Him being through her but her (as well as all of us) being made a new creature THROUGH HIM (no one comes to the Father except THROUGH me)...NO ONE (that includes Mary) can enter the Kingdom unless they are born of the water and the Spirit...even MARY had to be born AGAIN...

 

[Rhamiel]

Not to mention all the plants, rocks, water, planets, comets, and black holes. I suggest that we get real here and understand the obvious context and intent of the statement.

the obvious context
that book was written for the Church
everyone who read that book has been a sinner
all have sinned is the general rule

Jesus and Mary are the exceptions to that rule

you agree that "all" does not mean all
you do not think that Jesus has sinned

so the argument is not over if "all" literally means "all"
the argument is over who is the exception

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Martin Luther had mixed feelings about the Immaculate Conception of Mary:

In the course of his life, Martin Luther made contradictory statements about Mary's immaculate conception. For example, in 1532 Luther says that Mary was conceived in sin, in 1544 he says: 'God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, for she has conceived and borne the Lord Jesus.'[18] Elsewhere, "All seed except Mary was vitiated [by original sin]."[19] When concentrating specifically on Mary herself as the Mother of God, Luther acknowledges God's singular action in bringing her into the world, but in making general comments about the universality of human sinfulness, he includes her among all the rest of humanity.


Mother Mary, like us, was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her, sanctified and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood, but not with sinful flesh and blood. The Holy Spirit permitted the Virgin Mary to remain a true, natural human being of flesh and blood, just as we. However, he warded off sin from her flesh and blood so that she became the mother of a pure child, not poisoned by sin as we are. For in that moment when she conceived, she was a holy mother filled with the Holy Spirit and her fruit is a holy pure fruit, at once God and truly man, in one person."[20]
Luther's Marian theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[mmksparbud]

the obvious context
that book was written for the Church
everyone who read that book has been a sinner
all have sinned is the general rule

Jesus and Mary are the exceptions to that rule

you agree that "all" does not mean all
you do not think that Jesus has sinned

so the argument is not over if "all" literally means "all"
the argument is over who is the exception

There is only one exception:

(Heb 4:15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

(Heb 9:28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If you can state the verse where this is said of Mary, that would settle the question. Was she translated?

 

[Albion]

Martin Luther had mixed feelings about the Immaculate Conception of Mary:

Luther was one who appears to have tried to strain the human additions and exaggerations out from the basic religious truths, for which he gets my respect. But, on the other hand, it's hard to do that with precision, neither leaving anything wrongful but not diminishing anything essential.

As for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in particular, at least it's about her having been honored by God. That's essentially what Gabriel proclaimed to her, but we'd have good reason for thinking that anyway.

However, when it comes to attributing to Mary special heavenly powers, authority, jurisdiction, etc. that is another matter! We've tried--some of us--to keep the focus on these kinds of issues, even though many of the replies seem to want to wander off into something else.

 

[bbbbbbb]

the obvious context
that book was written for the Church
everyone who read that book has been a sinner
all have sinned is the general rule

Jesus and Mary are the exceptions to that rule

you agree that "all" does not mean all
you do not think that Jesus has sinned

so the argument is not over if "all" literally means "all"
the argument is over who is the exception

In light of the fact that God is an "exception to the rule" that all have sinned, your analogy can include all other beings and things. However, in the context of the two psalms (14 and 53) make it abundantly clear that mankind is in view and not god, one certainly cannot include God incarnate as being in the context of having sinned. You seem to also include another incarnate goddess, Mary, as well. I do not find any passages in holy scripture which make her an exception to humanity in the same sense of God Almighty, do you?

 

[Galilee63]

Deleted the post given I need to pray for a family urgently.

 

[mmksparbud]

The Lord punished (killed) those who did not have the utmost respect for the Ark (1 Chr. 13:10-11) and blessed those who took it into their care (1 Chr. 13:14).

The Holy Ark of The Covenant.

Hebrews 9:1-12

Rev 11:18-12:17

The Ark of the Old Covenant the Word of God made stone and the Ark of the New Covenant carried the Word of God made flesh with The Blessed Virgin Mary expecting Jesus Christ our Saviour.
The old Ark of the Covenant disappears in Jeremiah 3:16.
The new Ark of the Covenant resurfaces in Revelation 11:19 as the Woman with 12 stars around Her head; our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God.
The Ark of the Covenant has been restored to the temple, which is now in Heaven (refer to Hebrews 9:1-12)
A Woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary wearing a Crown is there - the new Holy Ark
The Woman in Revelations bore the King of the Israelites (Jesus) - who will rule the nations and sits at the Right Hand of God The Father Almighty
Satan/the devil is very interested in destroying Her but The Blessed Virgin Mary is safe.
Her Children are all faithful Christians who "follow the Lamb" (Rev 12:17)
The Israelites knew God used the Ark powerfully and they brought it into battle (Jos. 6:3-4). The Ark of the New Covenant, Mary, is introduced into the Heavenly battle against Satan (Rev 11:19)

OH, good grief, that is a stretch if ever there was one.

(Heb 8:5) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.


(Exo 25:22) And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.


The ark has absolutely not one single thing to do with Mary. The Mercy Seat was on the ark, between the cherubim and it was were God would commune with the High Priest. It represented God's heavenly throne, where the real covering cherubs are. Those that touched the ark were touching the throne of God and that is why they died. By claiming Mary as the ark you are putting her right smack on the throne of God, actually making her the throne itself!

 

[Galilee63]

The post was deleted thank you given I was editing when the system crashed.

Half of it was copied and pasted - some was not intended to be posted of that copy and paste.

I have posted some parallels in relation to our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God, Her Immaculate Conception and some parallels given by an author on the Holy Ark of The Covenant.

You were responding to a post right at the time I was editing the post.

The Ark of the Old Covenant

God loved his people and wanted to be close to them. He chose to do so in a very special way. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The prayer of the people of God flourished in the shadow of the dwelling place of God’s presence on earth, the ark of the covenant and the temple, under the guidance of their shepherds, especially King David, and of the prophets" (CCC 2594). God instructed Moses to build a tabernacle surrounded by heavy curtains (cf. Ex 25-27). Within the tabernacle he was to place an ark made of acacia wood covered with gold inside and out. Within the Ark of the Covenant was placed a golden jar holding the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant (cf. Heb 9:4).

When the ark was completed, the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle (Ex 40:34-35; Nm 9:18, 22). The verb for "to cover" or "to overshadow" and the metaphor of a cloud are used in the Bible to represent the presence and glory of God. The Catechism explains:


In the theophanies of the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory—with Moses on Mount Sinai, at the tent of meeting, and during the wandering in the desert, and with Solomon at the dedication of the temple. In the Holy Spirit, Christ fulfills these figures. The Spirit comes upon the Virgin Mary and "overshadows" her, so that she might conceive and give birth to Jesus. On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the "cloud came and overshadowed" Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and "a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!’" Finally, the cloud took Jesus out of the sight of the disciples on the day of his Ascension and will reveal him as Son of Man in glory on the day of his final coming. The glory of the Lord "overshadowed" the ark and filled the tabernacle. (CCC 697)

It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.

God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark (Ex 25-30). It was a place where God himself would dwell (Ex 25:8). God wanted his words—inscribed on stone—housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would he want his Word—Jesus—to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would he not make her flawless?


The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God, the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant. In fact, St. Luke’s account of the Annunciation of the angel to Mary nicely incorporates the images of the tent of meeting with God in Sinai and of the temple of Zion. Just as the cloud covered the people of God marching in the desert (cf. Nm 10:34; Dt 33:12; Ps 91:4) and just as the same cloud, as a sign of the divine mystery present in the midst of Israel, hovered over the Ark of the Covenant (cf. Ex 40:35), so now the shadow of the Most High envelops and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary (cf. Lk 1:35). (Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People, The Shrine: Memory, Presence and Prophecy of the Living God)

King David and Elizabeth

Luke weaves additional parallels into the story of Mary—types that could be overlooked if one is unfamiliar with the Old Testament. After Moses died, Joshua led the Israelites across the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Joshua established the Ark of the Covenant in Shiloh, where it stayed for more than 200 years. One day the Israelites were losing a battle with the Philistines, so they snatched the ark and rushed it to the front lines. The Philistines captured the ark, but it caused them great problems, so they sent it back to Israel (1 Sm 5:1-6:12).

David went out to retrieve the ark (1 Sm 6:1-2). After a man named Uzzah was struck dead when he touched the ark, David was afraid and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" He left the ark in the hill country of Judea for three months. We are also told that David danced and leapt in front of the ark and everyone shouted for joy. The house of Obed-edom, which had housed the ark, was blessed, and then David took the ark to Jerusalem (2 Sm 6:9-14).

Compare David and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." (Lk 1:39-45)

Mary arose and went to the hill country of Judea. I have been to both Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided), and they are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea.
When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" Elizabeth uses almost the same words: "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke is telling us something—drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel.
When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark. The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.
When the Old Testament ark arrived—as when Mary arrived—they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sm 6:12; 1 Kgs 8:9-11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Lk 1:56; 2:21-22).

It seems clear that Luke has used typology to reveal something about the place of Mary in salvation history. In the Ark of the Old Covenant, God came to his people with a spiritual presence, but in Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, God comes to dwell with his people not only spiritually but physically, in the womb of a specially prepared Jewish girl.

The Old Testament tells us that one item was placed inside the Ark of the Old Covenant while in the Sinai wilderness: God told Moses to put the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments inside the ark (Dt 10:3-5). Hebrews 9:4 informs us that two additional items were placed in the Ark: "a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded." Notice the amazing parallels: In the ark was the law of God inscribed in stone; in Mary’s womb was the Word of God in flesh. In the ark was the urn of manna, the bread from heaven that kept God’s people alive in the wilderness; in Mary’s womb is the Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life. In the ark was the rod of Aaron, the proof of true priesthood; in Mary’s womb is the true priest. In the third century, St. Gregory the Wonder Worker said that Mary is truly an ark—"gold within and gold without, and she has received in her womb all the treasures of the sanctuary."

While the apostle John was exiled on the island of Patmos, he wrote something that would have shocked any first-century Jew. The ark of the Old Covenant had been lost for centuries—no one had seen it for about 600 years. But in Revelation 11:19, John makes a surprising announcement: "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple."

At this point chapter 11 ends and chapter 12 begins. But the Bible was not written with chapter divisions—they were added in the 12th century. When John penned these words, there was no division between chapters 11 and 12; it was a continuing narrative.

What did John say immediately after seeing the Ark of the Covenant in heaven? "And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child" (Rv 12:1-2). The woman is Mary, the Ark of the Covenant, revealed by God to John. She was seen bearing the child who would rule the world with a rod of iron (Rv 12:5). Mary was seen as the ark and as a queen.

But does this passage really refer to Mary? Some say the woman represents Israel or the Church, and certainly she does. John’s use of rich symbolism is well known, but it is obvious from the Bible itself that the woman is Mary. The Bible begins with a real man (Adam), a real woman (Eve), and a real serpent (the devil)—and it also ends with a real man (Jesus, the Last Adam [1 Cor 15:45]), a real woman (Mary, the New Eve [Rv 11:19-12:2]), and a real serpent (the devil of old). All of this was foretold in Genesis 3:15.

John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote about this passage in Revelation:

What I would maintain is this, that the Holy Apostle would not have spoken of the Church under this particular image unless there had existed a Blessed Virgin Mary, who was exalted on high and the object of veneration to all the faithful. No one doubts that the "man-child" spoken of is an allusion to our Lord; why then is not "the Woman" an allusion to his mother? (On the Blessed Virgin Mary)

Our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God quite clearly has Conceived without sin.

Blessed be God our Heavenly Father forever, Amen.

 

[Galilee63]

Later in the same chapter we read that the devil went out to persecute the woman’s other offspring—Christians—which certainly seems to indicate that Mary is somehow the mother of the Church (Rv 12:17).

Even if someone rejects Catholic teaching regarding Mary, he cannot deny that Catholics have scriptural foundations for it. And it is a teaching that has been taught by Christians from ancient times. Here are a few representative quotations from the early Church—some written well before the New Testament books were officially compiled into the final New Testament canon:

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides" (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).

Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: "Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary" (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church echoes the words from the earliest centuries: "Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the Ark of the Covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is ‘the dwelling of God . . . with men’" (CCC 2676).

The early Christians taught the same thing that the Catholic Church teaches today about Mary, including her being the Ark of the New Covenant.

Mary, the Ark As Revealed in Mary's Visit to Elizabeth

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant Mary: Ark of the New Covenant

The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1-11). Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).

Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14). John the Baptist - of priestly lineage - leapt in his mother's womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).

David asks, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9).

Elizabeth asks, "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43).

David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15). Elizabeth "exclaimed with a loud cry" in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).

The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11). Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).

The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11).

The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39-45).

The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God's presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9-11).

Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21-22).

Mary as the Ark Revealed by Items inside the Ark

Inside the Ark of the Old Covenant Inside Mary, Ark of the New Covenant

The stone tablets of the law - the word of God inscribed on stone The body of Jesus Christ - the word of God in the flesh

The urn filled with manna from the wilderness - the miraculous bread come down from heaven The womb containing Jesus, the bread of life come down from heaven (John 6:41)

The rod of Aaron that budded to prove and defend the true high priest The actual and eternal High Priest.

 

[Galilee63]

You do realise that it is a sin of Blasphemy against Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit, Alfred, when one degrades The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God? I have only just read the remainder of your second post in response to another poster.

I am pointing this fact out to you for your own soul good eternally.

The Catholic Catechism further states that:

"The second commandment forbids every improper use of God's name. Blasphemy is the use of the name of God, of Jesus Christ, of the Virgin Mary, and of the saints in an offensive way."- CCC 2162

chapletsrosariesandlitanies.blogspot.com/2011/03/...for-blasphemy.html


Reparation for Blasphemy Against the Blessed Virgin Mary

Most glorious Virgin Mary, Mother of God and our Mother, turn thine eyes in pity upon us, miserable sinners; we are sore afflicted by the many evils that surround us in this life, but especially do we feel our hearts break within us upon hearing the dreadful insults and blasphemies uttered against thee, O Virgin Immaculate. O how these impious sayings offend the infinite Majesty of God and of His only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ! How they provoke His indignation and give us cause to fear the terrible effects of His vengeance! Would that the sacrifice of our lives might avail to put an end to such outrages and blasphemies; were it so, how gladly we should make it, for we desire, O most holy Mother, to love thee and to honor thee with all our hearts, since this is the will of God. And just because we love thee, we will do all that is in our power to make thee honored and loved by all men. In the meantime do thou, our merciful Mother, the supreme comforter of the afflicted, accept this our act of reparation which we offer thee for ourselves and for all our families, as well as for all who impiously blaspheme thee, not knowing what they say. Do thou obtain for them from Almighty God the grace of conversion, and thus render more manifest and more glorious thy kindness, thy power and thy great mercy. May they join with us in proclaiming thee blessed among women, the Immaculate Virgin and most compassionate Mother of God.

Hail Mary three times.

Source: The Raccolta, 1950

Reparation for Insults to the Blessed Virgin Mary

O blessed Virgin, Mother of God, look down in mercy from Heaven, where thou art enthroned as Queen, upon me, a miserable sinner, thine unworthy servant. Although I know full well my own unworthiness, yet in order to atone for the offenses that are done to thee by impious and blasphemous tongues, from the depths of my heart I praise and extol thee as the purest, the fairest, the holiest creature of all God's handiwork. I bless Thy holy Name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin, Co-Redemptrix of the human race.

I bless the Eternal Father who chose thee in an especial way for His daughter; I bless the Word Incarnate who took upon Himself our nature in thy bosom and so made thee His Mother; I bless the Holy Spirit who took thee as His bride. All honor, praise and thanksgiving to the ever-blessed Trinity who predestined thee and loved thee so exceedingly from all eternity as to exalt thee above all creatures to the most sublime heights. O Virgin, holy and merciful, obtain for all who offend thee the grace of repentance, and graciously accept this poor act of homage from me thy servant, obtaining likewise for me from thy Divine Son the pardon and remission of all my sins. Amen.

Source: The Raccolta.

www.liturgialatina.org/raccolta/contents.htm



Atonement for Neglecting to Honor Mary

Lord, forgive all reviling of Mary's name!
We beseech Thee, hear us!
Lord, forgive all contempt of her Immaculate Conception!
We beseech Thee, hear us!
Lord, forgive all coldness in the honoring of Mary!
We beseech Thee, hear us!
Lord, forgive all contempt of Mary's pictures!
We beseech Thee, hear us!
Lord, forgive all neglect of the Holy Rosary!
We beseech Thee, hear us!
Lord, forgive all indifference to Mary's Motherly love!

I am not participating in this thread any longer.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You do realise that it is a sin of Blasphemy against Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit, Alfred, when one degrades The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God? I have only just read the remainder of your second post in response to another poster.

I am pointing this fact out to you for your own soul good eternally.

The Catholic Catechism further states that:

"The second commandment forbids every improper use of God's name. Blasphemy is the use of the name of God, of Jesus Christ, of the Virgin Mary, and of the saints in an offensive way."- CCC 2162

chapletsrosariesandlitanies.blogspot.com/2011/03/...for-blasphemy.html


Reparation for Blasphemy Against the Blessed Virgin Mary

Most glorious Virgin Mary, Mother of God and our Mother, turn thine eyes in pity upon us, miserable sinners; we are sore afflicted by the many evils that surround us in this life, but especially do we feel our hearts break within us upon hearing the dreadful insults and blasphemies uttered against thee, O Virgin Immaculate. O how these impious sayings offend the infinite Majesty of God and of His only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ! How they provoke His indignation and give us cause to fear the terrible effects of His vengeance! Would that the sacrifice of our lives might avail to put an end to such outrages and blasphemies; were it so, how gladly we should make it, for we desire, O most holy Mother, to love thee and to honor thee with all our hearts, since this is the will of God. And just because we love thee, we will do all that is in our power to make thee honored and loved by all men. In the meantime do thou, our merciful Mother, the supreme comforter of the afflicted, accept this our act of reparation which we offer thee for ourselves and for all our families, as well as for all who impiously blaspheme thee, not knowing what they say. Do thou obtain for them from Almighty God the grace of conversion, and thus render more manifest and more glorious thy kindness, thy power and thy great mercy. May they join with us in proclaiming thee blessed among women, the Immaculate Virgin and most compassionate Mother of God.

Hail Mary three times.

Source: The Raccolta, 1950

Reparation for Insults to the Blessed Virgin Mary

O blessed Virgin, Mother of God, look down in mercy from Heaven, where thou art enthroned as Queen, upon me, a miserable sinner, thine unworthy servant. Although I know full well my own unworthiness, yet in order to atone for the offenses that are done to thee by impious and blasphemous tongues, from the depths of my heart I praise and extol thee as the purest, the fairest, the holiest creature of all God's handiwork. I bless Thy holy Name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin, Co-Redemptrix of the human race.

I bless the Eternal Father who chose thee in an especial way for His daughter; I bless the Word Incarnate who took upon Himself our nature in thy bosom and so made thee His Mother; I bless the Holy Spirit who took thee as His bride. All honor, praise and thanksgiving to the ever-blessed Trinity who predestined thee and loved thee so exceedingly from all eternity as to exalt thee above all creatures to the most sublime heights. O Virgin, holy and merciful, obtain for all who offend thee the grace of repentance, and graciously accept this poor act of homage from me thy servant, obtaining likewise for me from thy Divine Son the pardon and remission of all my sins. Amen.

Source: The Raccolta.

www.liturgialatina.org/raccolta/contents.htm



Atonement for Neglecting to Honor Mary

Lord, forgive all reviling of Mary's name!
We beseech Thee, hear us!
Lord, forgive all contempt of her Immaculate Conception!
We beseech Thee, hear us!
Lord, forgive all coldness in the honoring of Mary!
We beseech Thee, hear us!
Lord, forgive all contempt of Mary's pictures!
We beseech Thee, hear us!
Lord, forgive all neglect of the Holy Rosary!
We beseech Thee, hear us!
Lord, forgive all indifference to Mary's Motherly love!

I am not participating in this thread any longer.

That is probably best for everyone concerned because I would be surprised to find that anyone here has had the patience and time to wade through your tedious posts.

 

[mmksparbud]

That is probably best for everyone concerned because I would be surprised to find that anyone here has had the patience and time to wade through your tedious posts.

Well, they are long, but I did wade through--nothing new and full of humanistic philosophy and no scriptural proof of anything remotely linked to sinlessness. The ark is the throne if God, the mercy seat where God communed with the priest. The only person ever born on this planet without the aide of both parents involved is Jesus Christ. He was born of a virgin, which means she was a virgin still, even during His birth. Mary's conception was through normal means, no scriptural proof for anyone else being born through any other way. Christ was still born fully human, as such He did not require a sinless woman, he was tempted in all ways as we are which requires His humanity. He was fully divine and thus able to have His blood pay the price for our sins.
There is no question that Mary deserves praise and respect and honor--but she would be horrified to find the kind of adoration shown her---jut as Paul was by Cornelius bowing down to him. No one is blaspheming Mary. No greater honor has been placed on anyone. However,
(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;