Immaculate conception of Mary?

narnia59 · Dec 16, 2014

Albion said:
I know. But then again, I never said otherwise.

The fact that she was a sinner and knew herself to be a sinner doesn't rest upon this event.

Because she recognized she needed a Savior does not prove that she was a sinner. Without the merits of her son, she knew she would have fallen into the same state as the rest of humanity. She knew that her soul actually "magnified" the Lord. Impossible if her soul was sinful.

narnia59 · Dec 16, 2014

BobRyan said:
Mary was a sinner in need of 'God my Savior".

Mary did indeed know that God had saved her. Assuming He was required to wait until she sinned before doing that is problematic. It's also problematic to believe that a soul affected by sin could "magnify" the Lord.

BobRyan said:
Someone says to Christ "Blessed be your mother" Jesus responds "ON the Contrary - blessed are those who hear my words and do them".

Most translations are "rather", which by definition means:

1 : with better reason or more propriety : more properly <this you should pity rather than despise Shakespeare>
2: more readily or willingly : preferably <I'd rather not go> <would rather read than watch television> often used interjectionally to express affirmation
3: more correctly speaking <my father, or rather my stepfather>
4: : to the contrary : instead <was no better but rather grew worse Mark 5:26 (Revised Standard Version)>

Jesus is not denying that Mary was blessed to be his mother. To profess that puts Christ in direct contradiction with the Holy Spirit, who inspires Elizabeth to say to Mary "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb" (Luke 1:41-42). But Christ is stating that with even "better reason" she is blessed because she heard the word of God and obeyed it (Luke 1:38).

That view also puts Christ directly in contradiction with his own words to the Pharisees who felt they could set aside honoring their parents for their 'religious duty' (Mark 7:9-13). To believe that Christ would fail to honor Mary and publicly "diss" her is such a way in quite sad.

BobRyan said:
Stephen "being full of grace" is someone else who was also a sinner.

Both words rooted in 'charis', but two different forms of the word. The form used for Mary, "kecharitōmenē" is unique in all of Scripture and is in the perfect tense.

BobRyan said:
The real story here is why are they making up a story about Mary being born sinless as if they think that only a sinless person can give birth to a sinless person... when by definition they know that Mary's mother is not sinless?

I've heard some Catholics make that argument but it is indeed flawed and not the reason Mary is gifted by God with such grace.

Albion · Dec 16, 2014

narnia59 said:
Because she recognized she needed a Savior does not prove that she was a sinner.

This is true, but there's more than that in Scripture which leads to the same conclusion .

pshun2404 · Dec 16, 2014

The alleged immaculate conception of Mary never existed as a belief of the Christian faith. It was never passed on by the Apostles as something we should believe. NO apostolic church father (or any until well after the the great schism of 1054) ever mentioned such a thing. It was entirely made up by men of the Mary cult within the Roman Catholic church in the middle ages and was not even being decided on until the 1400s. It was not made an official "dogma" until 1854. It is absurd to put this in some foreground as a theological debate when it was made up more than 12 centuries after the Apostles gave us the truth!

I am absolutely convinced Mary herself is ashamed for all of you who hold to this man made tradition....she was a woman....probably one of the best women alive....clearly God counted her as blessed among women, and we love her, she is the mother of our Lord set apart by God to be the one who would bear the Son of God...shame on you and all who promote her to even higher degrees of almost goddess like quality...

Realizing you know no better and have been taught this I am sure the Lord will forgive you but be careful brothers and sisters not to put any other thing before God...He is first and He became flesh to mediate our deliverance and reconciliation and no one else....

The Lord have mercy on all our souls

Paul

Rhamiel · Dec 16, 2014

the idea that saying "God saved Mary from original sin"
means she is "almost Goddess like" is ridiculous

I mean, do you think that Eve before the Fall was "almost Goddess like"
maybe Protestants are just really tempted to see people as gods and goddesses?
some kind of latent Paganism in their mindsets that makes veneration of saints so very dangerous for them?

Catholics can understand that God does great things for His servants
Catholics are not tempted to see them as gods
since Protestants are so inclined to see saints as gods, maybe it is better that they do not have veneration of the saints since they are so tempted to see them as gods

Albion · Dec 16, 2014

pshun2404 said:
The alleged immaculate conception of Mary never existed as a belief of the Christian faith. It was never passed on by the Apostles as something we should believe. NO apostolic church father (or any until well after the the great schism of 1054) ever mentioned such a thing. It was entirely made up by men of the Mary cult within the Roman Catholic church in the middle ages and was not even being decided on until the 1400s. It was not made an official "dogma" until 1854. It is absurd to put this in some foreground as a theological debate when it was made up more than 12 centuries after the Apostles gave us the truth!

It's true that there have been periods in history when devotion to the Virgin was not particularly popular. Then there were periods (such as with the so-called "Cult of the Virgin" that blossomed during the High Middle Ages in parallel to the phenomenon of Courtly Love and Chivalry) when it became hugely important.

So...the idea has waxed and waned just like other trends in social and religious history. In the 19th and 20th centuries, we were in one of the "up" periods and it produced the decrees on the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary, along with numerous claims of Marian apparitions at Fatima and elsewhere. It's probable that, in the near future, these things will decline and something else will be on the rise.

pshun2404 · Dec 16, 2014

Rhamiel I said others....when we are saved we are all saved from the consequence of the original sin...there is just no basis for this happening to Mary when she was conceived...until some men made it up many many many centuries later.

Donkick · Dec 16, 2014

The bible does not say Mary was sinless, it says she conceived and was a virgin.

Romans 3 - all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

concretecamper · Dec 16, 2014

pshun2404 said:
The alleged immaculate conception of Mary never existed as a belief of the Christian faith. It was never passed on by the Apostles as something we should believe.....

Paul

Using your logic, the doctrine of the Trinity should not be believed. None of the Apostles spoke about it.

Rhamiel · Dec 16, 2014

while the Eastern Orthodox do not believe in the Immaculate Conception
maybe they can talk about their own beliefs on the "Blamelessness of Mary"
I am not EO and not very well versed on this topic

Albion · Dec 16, 2014

concretecamper said:
Using your logic, the doctrine of the Trinity should not be believed. None of the Apostles spoke about it.

No one knows whether they did or did not, but we believe it because it's in the Bible. You are asking us to believe a doctrine that IS NOT affirmed by the Bible. Big diff.

narnia59 · Dec 16, 2014

Albion said:
No one knows whether they did or did not, but we believe it because it's in the Bible. You are asking us to believe a doctrine that IS NOT affirmed by the Bible. Big diff.

There are any number of groups who accept the Bible yet deny the doctrine of the Trinity. One can see it implicitly, but there is no explicit statement that formulates the understanding of the nature of God as Trinity as defined by the Council of Nicaea and accepted by most who claim the name of Christian.

narnia59 · Dec 16, 2014

Albion said:
This is true, but there's more than that in Scripture which leads to the same conclusion .

Not without a big stretch, and there is certainly things within Scripture than support the belief that she was sinless.

"My SOUL MAGNIFIES the Lord" for example.

Albion · Dec 16, 2014

narnia59 said:
Not without a big stretch, and there is certainly things within Scripture than support the belief that she was sinless.

"My SOUL MAGNIFIES the Lord" for example.

Talk about a big stretch.

My soul magnifies the Lord, so I'm sinless.

I suppose you're going to tell us that the plain meaning is that she couldn't have praised the Lord except that she knew that she was conceived without sin. And the fact that she also described herself as needing a savior is supposed to count for nothing?

Or maybe it's supposed to be that no one ever refers to his mind or being or will as his "soul."

We really have to be serious if this discussion is to clarify anything for anyone!

concretecamper · Dec 16, 2014

Albion said:
No one knows whether they did or did not, but we believe it because it's in the Bible. You are asking us to believe a doctrine that IS NOT affirmed by the Bible. Big diff.

The doctrine of the Trinity IS NOT in the bible. Point me to the area of the Bible that shows the 3 Persons in the Trinity are equal in Majesty. Point me to the area of the Bible that shows the 3 Persons of the Trinity are distinct yet 1 God. Popcorn ready......

And I will also wait for pshun2404 to respond to my question.

narnia59 · Dec 16, 2014

pshun2404 said:
The alleged immaculate conception of Mary never existed as a belief of the Christian faith. It was never passed on by the Apostles as something we should believe. NO apostolic church father (or any until well after the the great schism of 1054) ever mentioned such a thing. It was entirely made up by men of the Mary cult within the Roman Catholic church in the middle ages and was not even being decided on until the 1400s. It was not made an official "dogma" until 1854. It is absurd to put this in some foreground as a theological debate when it was made up more than 12 centuries after the Apostles gave us the truth!

I am absolutely convinced Mary herself is ashamed for all of you who hold to this man made tradition....she was a woman....probably one of the best women alive....clearly God counted her as blessed among women, and we love her, she is the mother of our Lord set apart by God to be the one who would bear the Son of God...shame on you and all who promote her to even higher degrees of almost goddess like quality...

Realizing you know no better and have been taught this I am sure the Lord will forgive you but be careful brothers and sisters not to put any other thing before God...He is first and He became flesh to mediate our deliverance and reconciliation and no one else....

The Lord have mercy on all our souls

Paul

Your assertion that "NO apostolic church father (or any until well after the great schism of 1054) ever mentioned such a thing" isn't exactly correct. In some of the earliest of church fathers (Justin Martyr and Irenaeus for example), they refer to Mary as the "new Eve". That's well before the dogma of the Trinity is defined or the canon of Scripture is even established, which is WAY early in the scheme of things. Did they extrapolate that to consider what that meant in terms of original sin? No, but then again, the church's understanding of original sin and how that affects our human nature doesn't getting really fleshed out until Augustine comes along in a couple of hundred years. But understanding Mary as the New Eve is rooted in the earliest of the church fathers and there are numerous parallels between the two that are present in Scripture. And that implies being created in the same state that Eve was created -- without sin.

As far as that making Mary a "goddess" of some type -- I have no clue how people conclude that being sinless somehow equates a person to God. Adam and Eve were created in that state and it was certainly God's intention they remain in it. The angels who didn't rebel are sinless creatures and have been since God created them. Being sinless doesn't imply that Mary is a goddess. It simply means that she is more human than the rest of us. Human as God designed us to be before the parasite of sin entered the human race.

Ephesians 4:7-8 "But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

Why some find it hard to believe that Christ bestowed the greatest measure of grace on his mother, I do not understand.

And yes, may the Lord have mercy on us all. Especially those who have to stand before him having judged and professed his mother to be a sinner.

narnia59 · Dec 16, 2014

Albion said:
Talk about a big stretch.

My soul magnifies the Lord, so I'm sinless.

I suppose you're going to tell us that the plain meaning is that she couldn't have praised the Lord except that she knew that she was conceived without sin. And the fact that she also described herself as needing a savior is supposed to count for nothing?

Or maybe it's supposed to be that no one ever refers to his mind or being or will as his "soul."

We really have to be serious if this discussion is to clarify anything for anyone!

There is a big difference in praising God and stating that your soul magnifies him. And she was rejoicing in God, her Savior. Not her 'sometime in the future' Savior. There is no implication that she sinned and had been saved, and most certainly can be a recognition that he had saved her from sin at all. Not to mention saving her from having to stand at the foot of the cross and knowing that by her sin she was responsible for the death of her son. Now that's a gift a loving son would choose to give to His mother.

Ok, here's some Scripture. Biblical parallels between Mary (the new Eve) and Eve:

Woman (Eve) comes from man (Adam). Man (Christ) is born of woman (Mary). These are the only times in the history of the world where an individual receives their flesh soley from one person and the parallel is noted by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:11-12 "Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God."

Eve is approached by a fallen angel (Satan). Mary is approached by the angel Gabriel.

Eve accepts the fruit offered by the fallen angel. Mary accepts the fruit offered by the angel Gabriel -- "blessed is the fruit of your womb".

Eve's fruit is taken from the tree, resulting in the fall of man. Mary's fruit (Christ) is taken from the tree (the cross) resulting in the salvation of man.

Eve's disobedience brings death to all her children. Mary's obedience restores life by delivering Christ into the world.

Which is why the earliest of church fathers referred to Mary as the new Eve. The "undoing" of the knot Eve tied on humanity.

narnia59 · Dec 16, 2014

Donkick said:
The bible does not say Mary was sinless, it says she conceived and was a virgin.

Romans 3 - all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

It also never says that she sinned.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7856209-2/#post66781346

Rhamiel · Dec 16, 2014

Donkick said:
The bible does not say Mary was sinless, it says she conceived and was a virgin.

Romans 3 - all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

since "all" have sinned
does that mean animals have sinned?
or what about Jesus?
or the good Angels?
or the Father and the Holy Spirit?

I would say that animals are not capable of making moral choices
and that God and the good angels have never sinned

I would also say that Mary never sinned
not of her own power, but by the grace of God

mmksparbud · Dec 16, 2014

OK--I was just skimming through these posts and it hit me--I had no idea that RCC taught Mary was sinless from birth! Pardon my ignorance, I thought they just thought she was a virgin and stayed that way. I don't get it--does that mean that her mother is considered sinless too?? And how come they think she was sinless, the bible just says she was a virgin--nothing says she was sinless, where does that come from?? And nothing states she remained a virgin, for that matter. How can she have been sinless--she did not have a divine nature, only Jesus had that. She was human, born after the fall of Adam and Eve, nobody has been born sinless--not even Enoch or Elijah. They had the sacrificial system and their sins were covered and they were translated. There is no record of Mary being translated, that would have been definitely recorded---had she been sinless, she would not have died, but she did die.(Rom 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

If the disciples had considered her sinless, they would have said something, for that matter, Jesus would have absolutely pointed it out. Being the only walking, breathing living, sinless human being on the planet at the time, someone would have pointed it out!!

Immaculate conception of Mary?

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