Immaculate conception of Mary?

[Albion]

It's a historical fact.

It's not an historical fact. The Church in Britain was the oldest Christian church in the gentile world at that time and had been proclaimed so by five ROMAN CATHOLIC councils. Its faith did not change under Henry, who died a Catholic, never having been declared a heretic.

All of this is different from the history of the Continental Reformation. It's also quite different from the revisionist history that unsuspecting Catholics have been taught by their church ever since the Reformation.

In 1570, the Papacy finally gave up on its attempts at undermining the Church of England through political intrigue, revolution, or military invasion and decided to break off relations with the CofE. If Rome ever seeks to end its schism, I'm sure that there are Anglicans who would welcome that.

 

[patricius79]

It's a historical fact. It all started In 1533 when King Henry Vlll divorced Catherine of Aragon and married Anne Boleyn. As a result, he was excommunicated by Pope Clement ll who refused to annul the previous marriage. Civil divorce is forbidden in the Catholic Church ( Matt. 19:9; Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18; 1 Cor. 7:10-11). See the ECFs on marriage and divorce. Anyway, he decreed the Act of Supremacy in 1534, making the English monarch instead of the pope the head of the Catholic Church in England. He also closed down all the Catholic monastaries. After a brief experiment with Protestantism under his son Edward VI (1547-53) and a brief return to Catholicism under his elder daughter Mary I (1555-58), England officially became Protestant in 1559 under his younger daughter Elizabeth I (1558-1603). Except under the Catholic James II (1685-88), Catholicism remained illegal for the next 232 years. Catholic Christians faithful to the Holy See at Rome and refusing to swear allegiance to the English soveriegn existed mostly in secret congregations centred on the country houses of Catholic peers and gentry. Priests had to be trained and ordained abroad, and on returning to England they were liable to imprisonment. From about 1580 to 1680 they also risked execution, as did those who harboured them. Catholics were also liable to fines for not attending Protestant services (‘recusancy’). About 300 faithful Catholic clergy were martyred. After Catholic worship finally became legal on a permanent basis in 1791, most of the country-house chapels were closed and the missions moved to the nearest towns, following the shifts of population caused by the Industrial Revolution. So Catholic churches in England are now mostly in cities and towns and date from the last two hundred years. Hence, the Anglican Church is not the Catholic Church in England. The bishops who swore allegiance to the English sovereign forfeited their apostolic lineage. All ordinations have been invalid ever since. Meanwhile, in the complexity of the outgrowth of all the different branches in Anglicanism, most ancient apostolic traditions have been lost, including the Marian traditions. What you are left with is some borrowed Catholic capital which includes the Bible.

It all started with Henry. Despite his actions, he never espoused Protestant beliefs. But the true Catholic Church was in hiding for centuries. Your idea of there being a "papal Roman Catholic Church" apart from the Catholic churches of Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and former Constantinople (sorry, no London) is a piece of revisionist historical fiction.

It's sad that people like Henry VIII break away from the Catholic Church over things like wanting a divorce from their lawful wife.

But thanks to the intercession of Mary Immaculate, there is great hope.

 

[justinangel]

It's not an historical fact. The Church in Britain was the oldest Christian church in the gentile world at that time and had been proclaimed so by five ROMAN CATHOLIC councils. Its faith did not change under Henry, who died a Catholic, never having been declared a heretic.

The first Gentile church was established at Antioch.

King Henry Vlll was excommunicated and died outside of the faith, regardless of whether he didn't reject any traditional Catholic doctrines of faith. Morever, his last rites were administered by Thomas Cranmer, like Henry, declared a heretic and apostate in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Cranmer was not considered a Roman Catholic priest any longer and any rites he performed were ruled invalid – such as Henry’s adulterous marriage to Anne Boleyn after his divorce - by the Apostolic See. Henry certainly wasn't a good Catholic, by any means: annulling his own marriage to Catherine of Aragon and marrying Anne Boleyn after declaring himself “Supreme Head of the Church of England; persecuting those who opposed the Acts of Supremacy and Succession; dissolving the monasteries. I believe he turned St. Augustine's monastery into a deer farm; his handling of the Pilgrimage of Grace.

All of this is different from the history of the Continental Reformation. It's also quite different from the revisionist history that unsuspecting Catholics have been taught by their church ever since the Reformation.

History is revised by those who come after. There were no Protestants for 1500 years.

In 1570, the Papacy finally gave up on its attempts at undermining the Church of England through political intrigue, revolution, or military invasion and decided to break off relations with the CofE. If Rome ever seeks to end its schism, I'm sure that there are Anglicans who would welcome that.

There was no Church of England until Henry came along. Until then, there was the Catholic Church in England in communion with Rome - and there still is after having suffered great persecution for over 200 years. Even before the so-called reformation, which was actually a revolution and a rise of nationalism, it was the papacy which took care of those who tried to undermine the Catholic Church. (Mt. 16:18-19). Faithful Eastern bishops appealled to Rome in their contention with apostate clerics in the first millennium. Thus the pope's word was final at the ecumenical councils, just as Peter's was at the Council of Jerusalem. The gates of Hell shall not prevail against Christ's Church. You'll never find gay couples receiving the sacrament of Holy Matrimony in the Catholic Church or women being ordained priests. These things are a radical break from the Apostolic Tradition. So we Catholics can't be the schismatics.

 

[justinangel]

Tell us 5 traditions extant in Paul's time to which we should abide. Then you might have a point.

Study the Church Fathers and you'll find much more than 5.

 

[justinangel]

Me either, except for a floating Pascha tradition.

http://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/easter#IV._Easter_Controversy

 

[justinangel]

To clarify, Paul said "born of a woman". That's in scripture. Have you any extant oral tradition from Paul's time?

I just told you - the Virgin Birth. But Paul doesn't explicitly write that Jesus was born of a virgin. He actually wrote "made of a woman" to underscore the incarnation. So the Virgin Birth is not in Paul, at least not explicitly.

 

[justinangel]

I asked for traditions that existed in Paul's time to which we should hold on to. You answered the bible was a tradition. So, you've answered your own question. RC had nothing to do with canonizing the bible, except their own at Trent, which is far removed from tradition extant in Paul's time.

The Canon of Scripture was determined at the Synod of Rome in the late 4th century by the decree of Pope Damasus l. It is ironic that Protestants reject the inclusion of the deuterocanonicals at councils such as Hippo (393) and Carthage (397), because these are the very same early Church councils that Protestants appeal to for the canon of the New Testament. These councils endorsed Pope Damasus' ruling, by the way. The Council of Trent was an ecumenical council which infallibly ruled that the decisions of the 4th century councils must be upheld, after the Protestants unauthoritatively removed the deuterocanonical books because they contained content that didn't support their newly found beliefs. Sola fide and Purgatory, for example, are strange bedfellows.

Do you have any other traditions extant in Paul's time to which we should hold?

Are we playing 20 Questions?

 

[patricius79]

The first Gentile church was established at Antioch.

King Henry Vlll was excommunicated and died outside of the faith, regardless of whether he didn't reject any traditional Catholic doctrines of faith. Morever, his last rites were administered by Thomas Cranmer, like Henry, declared a heretic and apostate in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Cranmer was not considered a Roman Catholic priest any longer and any rites he performed were ruled invalid – such as Henry’s adulterous marriage to Anne Boleyn after his divorce - by the Apostolic See. Henry certainly wasn't a good Catholic, by any means: annulling his own marriage to Catherine of Aragon and marrying Anne Boleyn after declaring himself “Supreme Head of the Church of England; persecuting those who opposed the Acts of Supremacy and Succession; dissolving the monasteries. I believe he turned St. Augustine's monastery into a deer farm; his handling of the Pilgrimage of Grace.

I get much of my history from movies , but didn't Henry VIII even kill St. Thomas More and St. John Fisher unjustly?

Also, do you know what was Henry VIII's belief as to Mary, specifically in regard to her holiness/sinlessness? Obviously I'm sure that Queen Elizabeth--his daughter by adultery with Anne Boleyn, if I remember right-- probably rejected the Catholic Church's teachings about the Mother of God.

 

[Standing Up]

Study the Church Fathers and you'll find much more than 5.

Church fathers are after Paul. So you got nothing.

 

[Standing Up]

The Canon of Scripture was determined at the Synod of Rome in the late 4th century by the decree of Pope Damasus l. It is ironic that Protestants reject the inclusion of the deuterocanonicals at councils such as Hippo (393) and Carthage (397), because these are the very same early Church councils that Protestants appeal to for the canon of the New Testament. These councils endorsed Pope Damasus' ruling, by the way. The Council of Trent was an ecumenical council which infallibly ruled that the decisions of the 4th century councils must be upheld, after the Protestants unauthoritatively removed the deuterocanonical books because they contained content that didn't support their newly found beliefs. Sola fide and Purgatory, for example, are strange bedfellows.

Keep in mind the Damasine list rejects the PoJames upon which the myth of Mary e-v hangs.

Still, no one still really believes there was a Synod of Rome at that time.
https://books.google.com/books?id=0HKOJt33wLYC&pg=PA158&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Rome

 

[patricius79]

Keep in mind the Damasine list rejects the PoJames upon which the myth of Mary e-v hangs.

The N.T. Canon given through the Papacy does not recognize the Protoevangelion of James as the Word of God. That doesn't mean that there is nothing true in it regarding our spiritual Mother, the Ever-Virgin Mother of God, the Immaculate Conception.

 

[Standing Up]

The N.T. Canon given through the Papacy does not recognize the Protoevangelion of James as the Word of God. That doesn't mean that there is nothing true in it regarding our spiritual Mother, the Ever-Virgin Mother of God, the Immaculate Conception.

You don't know what your Pope teaches:

V. The remaining writings [including PoJ] which have been compiled or been recognised by heretics or schismatics the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church does not in any way receive; of these we have thought it right to cite below a few which have been handed down and which are to be avoided by catholics:
http://www.tertullian.org/decretum_eng.htm

Aren't you Catholic? Make a choice ...

 

[patricius79]

You don't know what your Pope teaches:

V. The remaining writings [including PoJ] which have been compiled or been recognised by heretics or schismatics the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church does not in any way receive; of these we have thought it right to cite below a few which have been handed down and which are to be avoided by catholics:
http://www.tertullian.org/decretum_eng.htm

Aren't you Catholic? Make a choice ...

Not receiving a book, and telling Catholics to avoid it, doesn't mean that everything in it is false. Obviously the Catholic Church has always believed that our Immaculate Mother is Ever-Virgin.

 

[Standing Up]

Not receiving a book, and telling Catholics to avoid it, doesn't mean that everything in it is false. Obviously the Catholic Church has always believed that our Immaculate Mother is Ever-Virgin.

RC does not in ANY WAY receive. partially, fully, one word of it. Avoid it. Make up something else.

 

[patricius79]

RC does not in ANY WAY receive. partially, fully, one word of it. .

That's going beyond what was said. If you were definitely right, you wouldn't need to add your interpolation to make your point.

 

[Standing Up]

That's going beyond what was said. If you were definitely right, you wouldn't need to add your interpolation to make your point.

It's bolded so you can't miss it.

V. The remaining writings [including PoJ] which have been compiled or been recognised by heretics or schismatics the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church does not in any way receive; of these we have thought it right to cite below a few which have been handed down and which are to be avoided by catholics:
http://www.tertullian.org/decretum_eng.htm

 

[patricius79]

It's bolded so you can't miss it.

V. The remaining writings [including PoJ] which have been compiled or been recognised by heretics or schismatics the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church does not in any way receive; of these we have thought it right to cite below a few which have been handed down and which are to be avoided by catholics:
http://www.tertullian.org/decretum_eng.htm

Right.

I know that the early Church did believe that Mary is Ever-Virgin and Immaculate. St. Irenaeus, for example, talks about how Mary gave before before she went into labor.

 

[Standing Up]

Right.

I know that the early Church did believe that Mary is Ever-Virgin and Immaculate. St. Irenaeus, for example, talks about how Mary gave before before she went into labor.

Labor has nothing to do with the doctrine of EV.

 

[patricius79]

Labor has nothing to do with the doctrine of EV.

Why do you say that?

 

[Standing Up]

Why do you say that?

'Cause the doctrine is she was a virgin before, during, and after birth.