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Immaculate Conception of Mary by her mother??, Assumption of Mary into heaven??

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BobRyan

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Immaculate Conception
Which is defined as - the Immaculate Conception of Mary by her mother-- Mary born sinless like Christ.

Assumption of Mary into heaven
Mary taken bodily to heaven without dying --or--- Mary resurrected at her death then bodily assumed into heaven.

I don't find any NT author commenting/admitting/stating the above.
I don't find any mention of this in Christian documents for more than 200 years after Christ.

Question:

Without any scripture support and without any early church documents in first or second century showing that Christians all believed in it - how did it come about?

On what basis could either of these teachings be considered mandatory, required or even true??
 

BobRyan

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If these events even happened - are they so minor, so trivial that no NT writer would think to mention or share it?

They are both events that supposedly happen within the span of the life of Mary, so not some ancient event long before the NT and not something that happens only in the 2nd century after all Bible writers had passed away.

If something of that magnitude had happened - then NT writers would be as interested/excited/adamant about it as those people are today who believe it is true. And we certainly don't see that in the NT text.

============ 2023 07 15
And we have a winner! Bill is among those few who take the time to address the questions asked in the OP

First Bill introduces us to Raymond Brown


Good Day, BobRyan

"Raymond E. Brown, S.S., born in 1928 and ordained in 1953, has been recognized by universities in the U.S.A. and Europe by some twenty honorary doctoral degrees. He was appointed by Pope Paul VI to the Roman Pontifical Biblical Commission, and with church approval he has served for many years on the Faith and Order Commission of the World Council of Churches. Time magazine once described him as 'probably the premier Catholic scripture scholar in the U.S.,' and he is the only person to have served as president of all three of these distinguished societies: the Catholic Biblical Association, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the Society of New Testament Studies."

He teaches on the 2 dogmas with in His denomination.
Makes us think that R. Brown is not about to confine himself to ad hominem in all his comments. So we have a good start here

Raymond E. Brown: Some Roman Catholics may have expected me to include a discussion of the historicity of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary. But these Marian doctrines, which are not mentioned in Scripture, clearly lie outside my topic which was the quest for historical knowledge of Mary in the NT. Moreover, I would stress the ambiguity of the term “historicity” when applied to these two doctrines. A Roman Catholic must accept the two dogmas as true upon the authority of the teaching Church, but he does not have to hold that the dogmas are derived from a chain of historical information.

Raymond E. Brown: There is no evidence that Mary (or anyone else in NT times) knew that she was conceived free of original sin, especially since the concept of original sin did not fully exist in the first century. The dogma is not based upon information passed down by Mary or by the apostles;
Well there you have it.
it is based on the Church’s insight that the sinlessness of Jesus should have affected his origins
In other words they came up with guess.... a guess that God was not AS capable of having Christ born sinless while still being born of a woman with a sinful nature - AS He was of having MARY born sinless while still being born of a woman with a sinful nature.

How in the world did that even make sense to them??
Nor does a Catholic have to think that the people gathered for her funeral saw Mary assumed into heaven—there is no reliable historical tradition to that effect,
Yeah -- seems to be a number of problems that all get back to that "no reliable biblical or historical evidence in favor of..."
and the dogma does not even specify that Mary died. Once again the doctrine stems from the Church’s insight about the application of the fruits of redemption to the leading disciple: Mary has gone before us, anticipating our common fate. Raymond E. Brown, Biblical Reflections on Crises facing the Church (New York: Paulist Press, 1975), p. 105, fn. 103.

In Him,

Bill
Thank you Bill. You have actually taken the time to answer the questions asked in the OP.

Your participation has taken the discussion forward as opposed to some of the more ad hominem avoid-substance things that people think of.

I am saving your response in my files for reference.

Bob
 
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sandman

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Additionally … it would contradict…. Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And keep in mind that John didn’t get the revelation from Christ Jesus (to write the book of John) until possibly 80 AD …certainly Jesus had plenty of time to look around and confirm that truth.
 
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concretecamper

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Question:

Without any scripture support and without any early church documents in first or second century showing that Christians all believed in it - how did it come about?

On what basis could either of these teachings be considered mandatory, required or even true??
Because the same Church that said the Gospel of Matthew is inspired text, says that Mary was Immaculately conceived and Assumed into Heaven. It's just that simple.
 
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concretecamper

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If something of that magnitude had happened - then NT writers would be as interested/excited/adamant about it as those people are today who believe it is true. And we certainly don't see that in the NT text.
The Gospels are about Jesus. :doh:
 
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The Liturgist

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Immaculate Conception
Which is defined as - the Immaculate Conception of Mary by her mother-- Mary born sinless like Christ.

Assumption of Mary into heaven
Mary taken bodily to heaven without dying --or--- Mary resurrected at her death then bodily assumed into heaven.

I don't find any NT author commenting/admitting/stating the above.
I don't find any mention of this in Christian documents for more than 200 years after Christ.

Question:

Without any scripture support and without any early church documents in first or second century showing that Christians all believed in it - how did it come about?

The Assumption of the Theotokos occurred in same way the miraculous conversion of the Syrians in Edessa, Nineveh, Seleucia-Cstesiphon (sometimes referred to as Babylon but in practice a newer city) and Kerala India, by St. Thomas the Apostle, who was martyred in Kerala in 53 AD came about. These were significant events but were not recorded in canonical scripture. Also there is a book more likely than not originating in the second century, and no later than the third century, concerning the Dormition of the Theotokos, the Liber Requiel Mariae, so frankly that half of your question is misleading.

If there were no documents of potential second century provenance reporting the Dormition, your argument would still be fallacious, since nearly the entire history of the Christian Church (including the life of Ellen G. White) is not mentioned explictly in the New Testament, but since there is actually a document widely regarded as being of second century provenance that documents this incident, it is misleading.

I would also note that just as there are various scriptures that the Adventists interpret as presaging the career of Ellen G. White, there are likewise scriptures that the Orthodox, Assyrians and Roman Catholics regard as prophecies of the Dormition, or Assumption as the Roman Catholics and Oriental Orthodox and also the many High Church Anglicans and other high church Protestants who believe in this doctrine regard as prophetic of it, and also scriptures that the Roman Catholics use to defend the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

Would I be correct in assuming that Ellen G. White objected to the doctrine of the Dormition?

On what basis could either of these teachings be considered mandatory, required or even true??

In addition to the same reasons that your denomination requires of its clergy, and probably its laity, a mandatory belief in the authenticity of the writings of Ellen G. White and certain other documents, which is to say, ecclesiastical authority, which Rome posesses, the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches possess, and which your church posesses, there are several very compelling reasons to believe in the Dormition of the Theotokos. Two of the most compelling are that unlike every other important figure in the New Testament, we have no bodily relics of her, which is extremely unusual, considering we have the head of St. John the Baptist, the body of St. Peter the Apostle, and many other relics, such as the body of St. Mark the Evangelist, which the Venetians stole from the Coptic Orthodox Church, but recently the Roman Catholic Church did return his head. However, even more compelling than the lack of relics is the extreme holiness of the Theotokos, who did literally give birth to God Himself in the person of the Son, and as such had a far more intimate relationship with God than even Moses or Adam or King David, of whom the Theotokos is an ancestor. It is for this reason that she is worthy of hyperdoulia, or extreme veneration, but she is not worshipped by the Orthodox nor would she desire or accept worship, and any apparition claiming to be the Blessed Virgin Mary who demands worship is not really the Blessed Virgin Mary but a demonic imposter. This is not to say she has not appeared to the faithful; her appearance to an Aztec who painted the famed icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe resulted in the miraculous conversion of the Mexicans and the demise of the wicked, vile and filthy Mesoamerican human sacrifice cult which had resulted in the death of millions of Mexicans and other Central Americans from its Mayan origins to its decadent Aztec successors.’

Bearing this in mind, considering that the holy prophets Enoch and Elijah were taken up, and considering that Moses was also assumed bodily after his repose, it would be inconsistent and strange if the literal Mother of God were not also taken up on the occasion of her repose.

Now the reason why the Roman Catholics and some Anglicans and Lutherans believe in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is because St. Augustine’s approach to Original Sin developed in refutation of the Pelagian heresy, which was initially rejected by Rome and the Eastern churches in favor of the model of Hereditary or Ancestral Sin proposed by St. John Cassian, but later adopted by the Roman church, but not the three Eastern churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East). St. Augustine proposes that Original Sin is transmitted through concupiscience in reproductive intercourse, requiring, in order to uphold the ancient belief of the church that the Blessed Virgin was in one form or another sinless, a belief held by the majority of Christians even today, the Roman church required the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in order to declare her conception free from the transmission of her sin. It is the belief of the Orthodox churches, the Assyrians, and myself, that this doctrine is superfluous, because St. Augustine was in error, and the refutation of Pelagius by St. John Cassian, in which an inclination to sin is inherited as well as a guilt, thus requiring the action of the Holy Spirit to guide us to salvation, is correct, and in this model there is no need for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and insofar as it makes the Theotokos less like an ordinary human mother, it is undesirable, as we want to stress the complete humanity and concurrent deity of Christ the Son of God and the Son of Man, our Messiah and Savior and the very Word of God in whom is the source of all truth and reason, as decreed by the Father and conveyed to us through the uncreated Grace of the Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of the Dormition however is uncontroversial among the ancient churches, being agreed to by all of them, and by many Protestants as well, about 20-25% of Anglicans I would estimate, and Anglicanism is of course the largest Protestant denomination and denominational grouping, followed by the various Lutheran communities and the various Calvinist communities.
 
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The Liturgist

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Additionally … it would contradict…. Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And keep in mind that John didn’t get the revelation from Christ Jesus (to write the book of John) until possibly 80 AD …certainly Jesus had plenty of time to look around and confirm that truth.

No it wouldn’t, because it is referring specifically to the Ascension of the Risen Christ, but people had in the past been taken up into Heaven without tasting death, for example, St. Elijah, or after death, for example, St. Moses.
 
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BobRyan

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Because the same Church that said the Gospel of Matthew is inspired text, says that Mary was Immaculately conceived

So then you say it is not the Bible - but rather a church tradition that came along later?
and Assumed into Heaven. It's just that simple.
Again - not the Bible but a tradition?

So then why no mention of it as the belief of the Christian church in first or second centuries?
 
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BobRyan

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In addition to the same reasons that your denomination requires of its clergy, and probably its laity, a mandatory belief in the authenticity of the writings of Ellen G. White
Not true of the laity - but certainly teachers would have to agree with the Bible doctrine in the NT and OT on the gift of prophecy and that it can happen in the case of someone who is not a Bible writer (as we see in 1 Cor 14) - and in our case Ellen White being an example of someone with that Biblical gift of prophecy as defined by scripture ...

For Sola Scriptura groups - like SDAs -- There is no "because we say so"
 
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concretecamper

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So then you say it is not the Bible - but rather a church tradition that came along later?
No, I'm saying you accept the Church's proclamation that the Gospel of Matthew inspired text without biblical proof so you should have no issue with accepting Church teaching on Mary.
Again - not the Bible but a tradition?
You must provide biblical proof that all truths that a Christian must believe is explicit in the Bible. You can't.
So then why no mention of it as the belief of the Christian church in first or second centuries?
False
 
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BobRyan

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As for the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary traditions --

BobRyan said:
So then why no mention of it as the belief of the Christian church in first or second centuries?
That was the place where you were supposed to post christian sources in the first or second century saying that the church was teaching the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary by Mary's mother, or the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven.

you can choose to believe anything you wish - but the statement above is about what you actually don't have as a historic document.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Again - not the Bible but a tradition?

Nothing in the Bible about the immaculate conception of Mary by her mother.
Nothing in the Bible about the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven

Yet all of those events supposedly happen around the time of the first century and would be known to the NT writers if it were a fact being taught by the early christian first century church.
You must provide biblical proof that all truths that a Christian must believe is explicit in the Bible.
you must provide some evidence that people who believed those two new ideas in the first century never write about it because that is what people do who believe that sort of thing... they don't talk about it.
 
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BobRyan

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No it wouldn’t, because it is referring specifically to the Ascension of the Risen Christ, but people had in the past been taken up into Heaven without tasting death, for example, St. Elijah, or after death, for example, St. Moses.
If I am not mistaken == you also do not teach the immaculate conception of Mary by her mother or the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven.
 
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BobRyan

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The Assumption of the Theotokos occurred in same way the miraculous conversion of the Syrians in Edessa

If the Orthodox church teaches the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven - please provide a reference
 
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BobRyan

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Now the reason why the Roman Catholics and some Anglicans and Lutherans believe in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is because St. Augustine’s approach to Original Sin developed in refutation of the Pelagian heresy
Augustine lived in the late part of 4th and early 5th century . If Catholics, Anglicans and Lutherans all get their "Immaculate conception of Mary by her mother idea" from Augustine - then as I stated in the OP - not only do we have no scripture stating it, but there are also no statements that the church was teaching this in the first or second century since of course - Augustine had not been born yet.
 
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concretecamper

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That was the place where you were supposed to post christian sources in the first or second century saying that the church was teaching the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary by Mary's mother, or the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven.
The point of my post was not to provide evidence one way or the other. It was simple to point out the hypocrisy of accepting some of Church Tradition and rejecting others.
you must provide some evidence that people who believed those two new ideas in the first century never write about it because that is what people do who believe that sort of thing... they don't talk about it.
No I don't. I just posted to bring to light your hypocrisy.
 
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FenderTL5

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If the Orthodox church teaches the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven - please provide a reference
a small section from the Matins service August 15 every year (Kathisma I):

Ἀναβόησον Δαυΐδ, τίς ἡ παροῦσα
Ἑορτή; Ἣν ἀνύμνησα φησίν, ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ
τῶν Ψαλμῶν, ὡς θυγατέρα θεόπαιδα καὶ
Παρθένον, μετέστησεν αὐτήν, πρὸς τὰς
ἐκεῖθεν μονάς, Χριστὸς ὁ ἐξ αὐτῆς, ἄνευ
σπορᾶς γεννηθείς· καὶ διὰ τοῦτο χαίρουσι,
μητέρες καὶ θυγατέρες, καὶ νύμφαι Χριστοῦ,
βοῶσαι· Χαῖρε, ἡ μεταστᾶσα, πρὸς τὰ ἄνω
βασίλεια.

Prophet David, tell us please, what do
we celebrate today? * "The Assumption of

the one, whom in the Psalms I extolled * as
daughter and Virgin and the Mother of God,
* when Christ, who without seed was born of
her, himself * transported her to heaven, to the
mansions there. * And on this day especially
mothers, * daughters, and brides of Christ
salute her with joy, * 'Rejoice, O Lady! You

were transported * to the royal courts on
high!'"

However, the Orthodox Feast of the Dormition differs somewhat from the Latin Feast of Assumption.
There's evidence of the Orthodox Dormition being celebrated in the Church in Jerusalem as early as the 1st century, although it was not added to the church-wide liturgical calendar until later.

(the Immaculate Conception as taught in the west is unnecessary in Orthodox teaching)
 
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BobRyan

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However, the Orthodox Feast of the Dormition differs somewhat from the Latin Feast of Assumption.
There's evidence of the Orthodox Dormition being celebrated in the Church in Jerusalem as early as the 1st century, although it was not added to the church-wide liturgical calendar until later.

(the Immaculate Conception as taught in the west is unnecessary in Orthodox teaching)
Dormition is not bodily assumption to heaven - it is the burial. It least that is how some people view it.

In any case - what is your explanation for no scripture on that and no reference to it for 300+ years?
 
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BobRyan

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The point of my post was not to provide evidence one way or the other.
ok well then you were successful.
It was simple to point out the hypocrisy of accepting some of Church Tradition and rejecting others.
What would be 'some'?

In Mark 7:6-13 we see Christ doing the very thing you are arguing against.
 
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FenderTL5

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Dormition is not bodily assumption to heaven - it is the burial. It least that is how some people view it.

In any case - what is your explanation for no scripture on that and no reference to it for 300+ years
see post 17
 
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