Imagery in The Passion

[theseed]

In OBOB there is a thread about the imagery of the movie. Some said that the "high table" is an allusion to the passover, and the to God's Kingdom--with the high chairs. Plus, they said that when mary says "why is this night different from any other night" is also a passover quote?

Can any of you MJ's corroberate this?

Let's make this thread about the imagery too, because there is so much to talk about. Did you notice that Satan had no eyebrows and that he did not blink? Did you also know that the person was a woman with a man's voice dubbed?

 

[theseed]

Also, I heard on the radio that one of the hands that hammered the nail into Yeshua was Mel Gibson's. He wanted to make the point that it was HIS SIN that crucified Messiah, not Jew or Gentile.

Yes, that's true.

What does the large table have to do with Passover? Some one said that they trade the low table out for a high one? And what about the comment, "What makes this night so different from other nights"? Does this have anything to do with Passover?

 

[theseed]

How long has the Passover Seder been in effect? I wish I knew if Mary really said that casually, but I figure that it's an enhancement of the story.

 

[theseed]

Passover has been observed since Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt under evil Pharoah and crossed the Red Sea to escape his army. (Remember the 10 plagues, blood on the lintels, angel of death, swift flight from Egypt)

Yes I know that, but I did not know that the ceremony has been around that long.

 

[koilias]

Some said that the "high table" is an allusion to the passover, and the to God's Kingdom--with the high chairs.

Hmm...I've never heard of the "high table". You were actually supposed to lean during the Passover, during the old days, so it is strange to me to hear that "high chairs" are specified anywhere. In Israel though we reconstructed the ancient practice...and we actually had the Passover laying on cushions on the ground over a low table, the way they would have done it in Yeshua's day.

The current form of the Passover ceremony, the Seder, was created during the Yavneh period at the end of the first century. Before, the ceremony involved a real sacrifice and it was eaten in haste. The Rabbis had to construct the Seder in its place after the temple's destruction...although some of it (especially the singing of the Psalms) was probably more ancient.

 

[theseed]

In the movie, Yeshua is building a table for a rich man, and it's a tall table, and he says that he is going to build tall chairs. Mary tries it out and sees if she can lean over it. She says, "it will never catch on"

 

[Henaynei]

In the movie, Yeshua is building a table for a rich man, and it's a tall table, and he says that he is going to build tall chairs. Mary tries it out and sees if she can lean over it. She says, "it will never catch on"

I love it - a bit of humor!!

 

[theseed]

When Jesus had built that "modern" table, I realized that this was forshadowign to the Last Supper.

In "City of God" by Mary Agreda (one of the sources of the movie), the regular jewish table at the Last Supper was removed at a point of the ceremony and a larg table (modern-like; high) was brought in and it was at the high table, which could be seen to resemble an altar of today, that the Institution tof the Holy Mass took place.

Is this true about he table?

 

[Henaynei]

When Jesus had built that "modern" table, I realized that this was forshadowign to the Last Supper.



Is this true about he table?

No, it would not be true. It may very well be true that it is Catholic tradition, but it is NOT consistant with anything Jewish from that period.

 

[simchat_torah]

During the time period tables were very very low to the ground and one would sit upon a pillow at the table. During Pesach (passover), they would actually recline at the floor when partaking of the meal.

 

[theseed]

During the time period tables were very very low to the ground and one would sit upon a pillow at the table. During Pesach (passover), they would actually recline at the floor when partaking of the meal.

And they would not change it out at anytime?

 

[Henaynei]

And they would not change it out at anytime?

One hundred years later, maybe.....

It is not like they could go to Ethan Allen and pick up a nice Colonial American drop leaf table for the dinning hall.........

Placing Yeshua at a "tall" table is myth originating with the culture and practice of the people creating or passing on these stories [low tables were unknown to them and the height of the table is only obliquely alluded to in that one disciple is noted leaning on "Yeshua's chest." (Note - in general one leaned on one's left arm so as to have the right free to eat - so the disciple noted to be leaning on Yeshua's chest was Yochanan and reclining on Yeshua's right side...using that go back and read that section of scripture again )

The stories provided a sorely needed method of passing on information about common beliefs and theology as supported by the church - but they doubtless added and colored them to make them more memorable, or "contemporary," or powerful, or meaningful to the intended audience..... remember in early church history most of the people could not read and all bibles were laboriously hand written, each one taking years to produce - ballards, stories and fables were the only bible most of the people had...

 

[theseed]

the height of the table is only obliquely alluded to in that one disciple is noted leaning on "Yeshua's chest

There are verses where it describes Jesus as reclining, also revealing the height, because this meant that he was laying down--since the did not have Laz-e-boys

 

[Charlesinflorida]

There are verses where it describes Jesus as reclining, also revealing the height, because this meant that he was laying down--since the did not have Laz-e-boys

Yes it's like all that art work that is so sacred, where Jesus is this Blu-eyed Blonde-haired english looking fellow and he and the folks around him are mostly dressed in 11th century European clothing.

Also many paintings of Yeshua you see him depicted with a malformation of the hand called a "Dupuytren's contracture" which is caused by calogen binding in the palmar facia. I causes the 4th and 5th digits of the hand to be folded in toward the palm. I believe the reason this was done was because for some reason many of the European royals carried the gene for this contracture. It usually happens in males over 40 years old. But I think it was meant to portray Christs royal status.

I have a lot of gripes toward this false image of the fabricated gentilish Jesus than was made up to replace the true Messiah Yeshua. This only served to further separate Jews from their messiah.

CIF

 

[theseed]

I have a lot of gripes toward this false image of the fabricated gentilish Jesus than was made up to replace the true Messiah Yeshua. This only served to further separate Jews from their messiah.

I agree, and I gripe some too.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

I agree, and I gripe some too.

This is a little of topic, but is worth saying.

The Jesus of the chruch is much different than the Yeshua of scriptures. The church pretty much robs Him of His Jewishness, takes away his Torah obedeint life style , even making it seem that He put an end to Torah, when that is just the opposite of what he said or did. The church says Jesus broke the sabbath. He didn't. He did what was legal to do on the Sabbath, To heal, and releave suffering and save life.

They say that he did away with Kosher laws. He didn't. He dismissed as superfulous, the Rabbinical traditions that were added to he Kosher laws, such as hand washings ect.

Yeshua, the real one from scripture, said, "If any man breaks the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same, he will be the least in the Kingdom of heaven. If your righreousness (obedience to Divine commandments ) does not exceed that of the pharises you will in no way enter the kingdom of heaven.

He wore Tallit with TziTzi, he maintained the appointed feasts, he maintained Torah correctly. He knew what to do because He was the giver of Torah, and is the living Torah. How different from this Jesus character who the church formed up from anti-semitism, antinomialism, and generous portions from Pagan mysteries, particularly of the Roman and Greek cultures. They adopted Pagan feast days, Pagan non-Kosher-diet, Pagan rituals and observaces, and painted a cross on them burying forever any sign that this was the promised Messiah of Israel. They made up doctrines for this Jesus religion that actually made it impossible for a Jew to believe in him. And required converts to renounce any connection to Judaism or the old testament and the commandments.

Constantine said

We desire to have nothing in common with this so hated
people, for the Redeemer has marked out another path for us. To this
we will keep,and be free from disgraceful association with this people.
...The Apostalic Canons, [4th cent.]: If a clergyman enter into a
synagogue of Jews or heretics, [i.e.,Nazarenes/Messianic Jews] to pray,
let him be excommunicated. [Cannon 64]. If any bishop, presbyter or
deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast of festival with
the Jews, or receives from them any gift of their feasts, as unleavened
bread, or any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let
him be excommunicated.


This oath was required. Notice in the last lines, it is admitted that Christianity is a "NEW Roman Religion", which had its own "LEGALISMS"

I renounce all customs, rites, leagalisms, unleavened breads and
sacrifice of lambs of the Hebrew, and all the other feasts of the
Hebrew, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications,sanctifications,
and propitations, and fasts and new moons, and Sabbaths, and
superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and
the food and drink of the Hebrew; in one word, I renounce absolutely
everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom,...But if it be with
deceit and hypocrisy, and not with a sincere and perfect faith and a
genuine love of Christ, but with pretence to be a Christian that I
come, and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish
superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with
them, or secretly conversing with them and condemning the Christian
religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain
faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave
to me, as well as the anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be
set down with Satan and the devils."

Furthermore, I accept all customs, rites, legalisms and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, sanctifications by Pontius Maximus, propitiations and feasts, the New Sabbath – The Sol Dei [Day of the Sun], all new chants and observances, all foods and drinks of the Romans in the New Roman Religion.

CIF

 

[Henaynei]

wow - CIF - it is good to review that once in a while..... thanks

 

[ShirChadash]

This is a little of topic, but is worth saying.

The Jesus of the chruch is much different than the Yeshua of scriptures. The church pretty much robs Him of His Jewishness, takes away his Torah obedeint life style , even making it seem that He put an end to Torah, when that is just the opposite of what he said or did. The church says Jesus broke the sabbath. He didn't. He did what was legal to do on the Sabbath, To heal, and releave suffering and save life.

They say that he did away with Kosher laws. He didn't. He dismissed as superfulous, the Rabbinical traditions that were added to he Kosher laws, such as hand washings ect.

Yeshua, the real one from scripture, said, "If any man breaks the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same, he will be the least in the Kingdom of heaven. If your righreousness (obedience to Divine commandments ) does not exceed that of the pharises you will in no way enter the kingdom of heaven.

He wore Tallit with TziTzi, he maintained the appointed feasts, he maintained Torah correctly. He knew what to do because He was the giver of Torah, and is the living Torah. How different from this Jesus character who the church formed up from anti-semitism, antinomialism, and generous portions from Pagan mysteries, particularly of the Roman and Greek cultures. They adopted Pagan feast days, Pagan non-Kosher-diet, Pagan rituals and observaces, and painted a cross on them burying forever any sign that this was the promised Messiah of Israel. They made up doctrines for this Jesus religion that actually made it impossible for a Jew to believe in him. And required converts to renounce any connection to Judaism or the old testament and the commandments.

Constantine said

We desire to have nothing in common with this so hated
people, for the Redeemer has marked out another path for us. To this
we will keep,and be free from disgraceful association with this people.
...The Apostalic Canons, [4th cent.]: If a clergyman enter into a
synagogue of Jews or heretics, [i.e.,Nazarenes/Messianic Jews] to pray,
let him be excommunicated. [Cannon 64]. If any bishop, presbyter or
deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast of festival with
the Jews, or receives from them any gift of their feasts, as unleavened
bread, or any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let
him be excommunicated.


This oath was required. Notice in the last lines, it is admitted that Christianity is a "NEW Roman Religion", which had its own "LEGALISMS"

I renounce all customs, rites, leagalisms, unleavened breads and
sacrifice of lambs of the Hebrew, and all the other feasts of the
Hebrew, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications,sanctifications,
and propitations, and fasts and new moons, and Sabbaths, and
superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and
the food and drink of the Hebrew; in one word, I renounce absolutely
everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom,...But if it be with
deceit and hypocrisy, and not with a sincere and perfect faith and a
genuine love of Christ, but with pretence to be a Christian that I
come, and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish
superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with
them, or secretly conversing with them and condemning the Christian
religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain
faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave
to me, as well as the anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be
set down with Satan and the devils."

Furthermore, I accept all customs, rites, legalisms and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, sanctifications by Pontius Maximus, propitiations and feasts, the New Sabbath – The Sol Dei [Day of the Sun], all new chants and observances, all foods and drinks of the Romans in the New Roman Religion.

CIF

This is amazing -- DH was just this morning re-reading over the creed of Constantine that you posted above, Charles, and we were discussing it a few hours ago. Here I am now, reading along through your post, and getting set to "Amen" it and also add that ^ creed into the thread, as example of what you were already saying in your post... and there it is, by your own placement! A hearty thank you from me... I believe this was supposed to be posted, and I thank you for doing so, CIF.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

This is amazing -- DH was just this morning re-reading over the creed of Constantine that you posted above, Charles, and we were discussing it a few hours ago. Here I am now, reading along through your post, and getting set to "Amen" it and also add that ^ creed into the thread, as example of what you were already saying in your post... and there it is, by your own placement! A hearty thank you from me... I believe this was supposed to be posted, and I thank you for doing so, CIF.

Thanks,
I don't really have a grievance aginst the church membersip, because they are led by shepherds who are supposed to look out for them and to make sure what they receive is good food. Where my grievance is focused is church leadership, many of whom are quite aware of these truths but are so taken with the sytem of mens design, or so under the thumb of the church buracracy that they are afraid to speak up. They see the historical evidence are are not willing repent themselves let alone lead their flock to repentance, so the lie continues to be perpetuated, generation by generation. The reusult is the church grows more apostate, and luke-warm. And the Jews are kept away from Messiah. My hope is that some who read posts like this will be pricked in their spirits enough to investigate it or themselves. I know it happens because it happened to me, and others I know who cae out of the Babylonian system, and returned to the Lord God YHVH.

Baruach HaShem Adonai.

Charles

 

[ShirChadash]

Thanks,
I don't really have a grievance aginst the church membersip, because they are led by shepherds who are supposed to look out for them and to make sure what they receive is good food. Where my grievance is focused is church leadership, many of whom are quite aware of these truths but are so taken with the sytem of mens design, or so under the thumb of the church buracracy that they are afraid to speak up. They see the historical evidence are are not willing repent themselves let alone lead their flock to repentance, so the lie continues to be perpetuated, generation by generation. The reusult is the church grows more apostate, and luke-warm. And the Jews are kept away from Messiah. My hope is that some who read posts like this will be pricked in their spirits enough to investigate it or themselves. I know it happens because it happened to me, and others I know who cae out of the Babylonian system, and returned to the Lord God YHVH.

^this would perfectly describe our postion and thoughts, as well, CIF.

Shalom,
~z~