• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

I'm starting to change my mind about the End Times (help!)

Freth

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 11, 2020
1,630
1,982
Midwest, USA
✟572,865.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,360
4,307
Wyoming
✟150,247.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I apologize if this is not the right place for this.

I wanted some help with End Times theology. For most of my Christian walk, I've believed in the Left Behind type of theology. The tribulation is ahead of us and will be kicked off by the rapture of the church.

But all of a sudden I've been introduced to preterist theology and I don't know what to believe anymore. Could Daniel and even Revelations have warned about Nero being the fulfillment of being the little horn rising up as the Beast of the Sea? I heard he matches up with 666, he ended temple sacrifice after breaking a treaty with Jerusalem, and so much more.

I always heard that the best would be killed and brought back from the dead, which I just read the beast was Rome and after Nero killed himself, the empire was surely dead, but "came back to life" better than ever after Vespasian came to rule.

This is difficult for me because I have been waiting for the return of the Messiah. Is He not supposed to return after the tribulation? What have we been doing for the last 2,000 years if the tribulation happened so long ago? Was Nero the antichrist?

I don't know what to believe anymore! Please help me out if you have some answers for me (or even share good books and resources that can help me.) Thanks!

There is the partial preterist view, which is incorporated into the amillennial and post-millennial paradigm.

However, it is obvious that the book of Revelation was written to first-century Christians. People think that the book is foreseeing future events, but it is actually discussing the events during the book's writing. It mentions the destruction of the Temple and persecution of the Church. The only part that is likely about the future are the last few chapters, but if you study the sequence of historical events and match them with the descriptions of Revelation, most of it already happened, but are illustrated in allegorical language. The book isn't about warning Christians about a time far away, but about encouraging Christians during difficult times that they were facing. You're actually reading history, in a sense.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,590
8,226
50
The Wild West
✟762,880.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I apologize if this is not the right place for this.

I wanted some help with End Times theology. For most of my Christian walk, I've believed in the Left Behind type of theology. The tribulation is ahead of us and will be kicked off by the rapture of the church.

But all of a sudden I've been introduced to preterist theology and I don't know what to believe anymore. Could Daniel and even Revelations have warned about Nero being the fulfillment of being the little horn rising up as the Beast of the Sea? I heard he matches up with 666, he ended temple sacrifice after breaking a treaty with Jerusalem, and so much more.

I always heard that the best would be killed and brought back from the dead, which I just read the beast was Rome and after Nero killed himself, the empire was surely dead, but "came back to life" better than ever after Vespasian came to rule.

This is difficult for me because I have been waiting for the return of the Messiah. Is He not supposed to return after the tribulation? What have we been doing for the last 2,000 years if the tribulation happened so long ago? Was Nero the antichrist?

I don't know what to believe anymore! Please help me out if you have some answers for me (or even share good books and resources that can help me.) Thanks!

I suggest going back to the Early Church and reading their interpretations of the End Times, which are neither Full Preterist nor Premillenial Dispensationalist, and are also by the way shared not just by the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics and the Assyrian Church of the East, but also by the Lutherans, Anglicans, and most Methodists, and historically were predominant among Calvinism (however Premillenial Dispensationalism has become popular in some Calvinist and especially Baptist churches despite having not been their historic theology; many facets of Premillenial Dispensationalism such as the pre-Tribulation Rapture originated with John Nelson Darby, a member of the Plymouth Brethren (who also did not historically believe in Premillenial Dispensatioanlism; my recollection is that Darby’s views were controversial enough to cause if not a schism, than at least a rift or disagreement within the Plymouth Brethren).

But as I see it, one cannot go wrong with the historic belief of the Lutherans, Anglicans, traditional Calvinists, Roman Catholics and both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I removed my comment, because I probably violated the forum rules and don't want to get a reprimand from the moderators.


In that case, maybe I should remove mine as well. Which still means we both need to remove what we have quoted by each other.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,590
8,226
50
The Wild West
✟762,880.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
@DavidPT and @Douggg would it be fair to say you agree with me that both full preterist and pretribulation rapture eschatology is interesting but implausible? I believe this to be the case for, for among other reasons, its recent provenance and lack of support among the early Church Fathers, medieval Scholastic theologians and Protestant Reformers alike.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Gregorikos
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
@DavidPT and @Douggg would it be fair to say you agree with me that both full preterist and pretribulation rapture eschatology is interesting but implausible? I believe this to be the case for, for among other reasons, its recent provenance and lack of support among the early Church Fathers, medieval Scholastic theologians and Protestant Reformers alike.


I don't agree they are interesting, but I do agree they are implausible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,590
8,226
50
The Wild West
✟762,880.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I don't agree they are interesting, but I do agree they are implausible.

I think they are intellectually interesting but incorrect, simply because they are complex, and the pre-trib rapture makes for an interesting story (that said, Left Behind is not well written in my opinion; in fact I think it is racist in its depiction of the Anti-Christ as Romanian, giving him a name that no Romanian has but which does also allude to the Carpatho-Rusyn or Ruthenian people, a persecuted minority population in Eastern Europe, who are also predominantly Greek Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, with the noted painter Andy Warhol being a pious Ruthenian Greek Catholic of the sub-ethnicity known as Lemkos, who live mainly in Poland; the Carpathian/Ruthenian/Lemko Christians and Romanian Orthodox Christians were among the most severely persecuted by the Communists and are among the most devout in Europe, so the character of Nicolae Carpathia really offended me.

Also there was a disturbing Tribulation Force video game in which you had to convert people using “praise and worship music” among other things, which would send me running the other way, and those who you could not convert you had to shoot, with guns. Because killing people who won’t convert to Christianity is so totally in line with the Gospels and is the kind of thing we want to teach our kids with video games… :doh: I guess the traditional Christian approach of evangelizing people through gentle persuasion and acts of charity, and being willing to accept martyrdom rather than resort to violence against those who persecute us, for example, in the case of St. Moses the Strong, is too boring? So perhaps we should just, I don’t know, convert to Islam where converting people at gunpoint is completely acceptable?

By the way lest you think I am exaggerating about that video game, there is a review on Ars Technica. It horrified a lot of people and did not help to promote Christianity among geeks.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,629.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
@DavidPT and @Douggg would it be fair to say you agree with me that both full preterist and pretribulation rapture eschatology is interesting but implausible? I believe this to be the case for, for among other reasons, its recent provenance and lack of support among the early Church Fathers, medieval Scholastic theologians and Protestant Reformers alike.
Well, my view is that both the full and partial preterist views are invalid.

The pretribulation rapture, in my view, is very possible and has merit, but I don't think the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins.

My rapture timing window view is anytime between right now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God - the transgression of desolation ( ToD ) act.

I borrowed the words "any time" from Luke 21:34, as a name for my view. The rapture window is the shaded blue area.



upload_2022-9-20_22-54-6.jpeg
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

wonderkins

Active Member
Jul 16, 2017
309
215
Winlock
✟166,268.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, my view is that both the full and partial preterist views are invalid.

The pretribulation rapture, in my view, is very possible and has merit, but I don't think the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins.

My rapture timing window view is anytime between right now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God - the transgression of desolation ( ToD ) act.

I borrowed the words "any time" from Luke 21:34, as a name for my view. The rapture window is the shaded blue area.



View attachment 321038
A couple questions...how many desolations are there? And why do you label your antichrist person, "antichrist"? The Bible only ever uses the term antichrist in 1st and 2nd John. And they never describe the "antichrist" characteristics. The Bible literally defines antichrist.

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
— 1 John 2:22
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,629.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
A couple questions...how many desolations are there?
Two.

1. The term transgression of desolation is found in Daniel 8:12-13. It is an act versus a thing like the abomination of desolation to be setup.

The transgression of desolation "act" will be the act of the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood, in Thessalonians2:4. That act will trigger the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

It also ends the Antichrist's time as being the King of Israel thought to be messiah. As the person is revealed to be the man of sin.

2. The abomination of desolation setup is found in Daniel 12:11-12. It will be the statue image made of the beast in Revelation 13.

And why do you label your antichrist person, "antichrist"?
To be correct, technically, and not the common usage of the term, the person is the Anti (instead of and against Jesus the true Christ) - christ only for the time he is the King of Israel messiah of the false messianic age.

At other times, he is the little horn, over a coalition of ten EU leaders in particular, starting out.

Then following Gog/Magog, he is the prince who shall come.

Then he is anointed the King of Israel messiah by the false prophet (Judaism believes that their coming messiah will be anointed by a known prophet). Thus becoming the Antichrist.

Then after three years thereabouts, he commits the ToD act, revealing himself as the man of sin, and not the messiah after all. Ending his time as the Antichrist.

God has him killed for the act, in Ezekiel 28:1-10, assassinated by strangers to him.

A week or so later, God brings him back alive in disdain for the person, and as the strong delusion that God sends to those who will have believed his achieved God-hood claim lie. In 2Thessalonians2:11.

At which time of coming back to life, is possessed by the cunning spirit of the serpent beast from Genesis now in the bottomless pit, he earns the term the beast in Revelation 13 and from there to his end.

The Bible only ever uses the term antichrist in 1st and 2nd John. And they never describe the "antichrist" characteristics. The Bible literally defines antichrist.

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
That is an often made argument.

Although the term is not found written in previous text of the bible - the concept of the Antichrist was commonly known by them John was addressing in 1John.

As they had "heard", not read. They heard from persons like John himself, who quoted Jesus in John 5:43 about the Jews rejecting him (as their king) but accepting another (as their king).

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The Antichrist will reject the Father and Son principle of Christianity. The Antichrist will deny Jesus in all facets. It is what the Jews expect of their anticipated messiah.


'
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,972
Alabama
✟509,396.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Two.

1. The term transgression of desolation is found in Daniel 8:12-13. It an act versus a thing like the abomination of desolation to be setup.

The transgression of desolation "act" will be the act of the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood, in Thessalonians2:4. That act will trigger the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

It also ends the Antichrist's time as being the King of Israel thought to be messiah. As the person is revealed to be the man of sin.

2. The abomination of desolation setup is found in Daniel 12:11-12. It will be the statue image made of the beast in Revelation 13.


To be correct, technically, and not the common usage of the term, the person is the Anti (instead of and against Jesus the true Christ) - christ only for the time he is the King of Israel messiah of the false messianic age.

At other times, he is the little horn, over a coalition of ten EU leaders in particular, starting out.

Then following Gog/Magog, he is the prince who shall come.

Then he is anointed the King of Israel messiah by the false prophet (Judaism believes that their coming messiah will be anointed by a known prophet). Thus becoming the Antichrist.

Then after three years thereabouts, he commits the ToD act, revealing himself as the man of sin, and not the messiah after all. Ending his time as the Antichrist.

God has him killed for the act, in Ezekiel 28:1-10, assassinated by strangers to him.

A week or so later, God brings him back alive in disdain for the person, and as the strong delusion that God sends to those who will have believed his achieved God-hood claim lie. In 2Thessalonians2:11.

At which time of coming back to life, is possessed by the cunning spirit of the serpent beast from Genesis now in the bottomless pit, he earns the term the beast in Revelation 13 and from there to his end.

That is an often made argument.

Although the term is not found written in previous text of the bible - the concept of the Antichrist was commonly known by them John was addressing in 1John.

As they had "heard", not read. They heard from persons like John himself, who quoted Jesus in John 5:43 about the Jews rejecting him (as their king) but accepting another (as their king).

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The Antichrist will reject the Father and Son principle of Christianity. The Antichrist will deny Jesus in all facets. It is what the Jews expect of their anticipated messiah.


'

IMO your post is a incredible story not based on biblical facts

Try this story

Grammatically, it makes sense that all references to “he” in Daniel 9:27 refer to the same person throughout the text, that is, to Jesus Christ Himself. Simply read the entire verse in the KJV. The “it” that is made “desolate” refers to the Jewish sanctuary. Speaking to the leaders of Israel, Jesus mournfully declared, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate ” (Matthew 23:38). But how could Jesus Christ make the Jewish sanctuary desolate? The answer is simple: By His death on the cross. When Jesus finally cried out, “It is finished” (John 19:30), the entire Jewish temple service, including its sacrifices, “ceased” to be of value in the sight of God. It was “desolate.”

The entire drama surrounding the fate of the Temple included the Jews, the Messiah, and finally, Roman armies led by Titus that finished the job in 70 A.D. To make it simple, here is the entire text below with explanations in brackets:

(27) And he [Christ] shall confirm the [new] covenant with many for one week [the last 7-year period of Daniel 9:24]: and in the midst of the week [after 3 ½ years of holy ministry] he [Christ] shall cause [by His death on the cross] the sacrifice [of the Jewish Temple] and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations [of the Jewish leaders who instigated Christ’s death] he [Christ] shall make it [the Temple] desolate [Christ’s death ultimately finished the Temple service], even until the consummation [which occurred 40 years later when the Roman armies led by Titus finally burned the Temple to the ground and killed approximately one million Jews. See War of the Jews by Josephus], and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate [the Jewish nation and its Temple in 70 A.D.].

Christ’s death not only atoned for our sins, but it also meant the end of the Jewish temple service itself (making it desolate). Finally, in 70 A.D., Roman armies finished the job, thus completing “the desolation.”

Jesus clearly predicted the events of 70 A.D. when He forewarned His disciples, saying, “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh” (Luke 21:20).
Daniel 9:27b Explained - White Horse Media
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,629.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
IMO your post is a incredible story not based on biblical facts

Try this story

Grammatically, it makes sense that all references to “he” in Daniel 9:27 refer to the same person throughout the text, that is, to Jesus Christ Himself. Simply read the entire verse in the KJV. The “it” that is made “desolate” refers to the Jewish sanctuary. Speaking to the leaders of Israel, Jesus mournfully declared, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate ” (Matthew 23:38). But how could Jesus Christ make the Jewish sanctuary desolate? The answer is simple: By His death on the cross. When Jesus finally cried out, “It is finished” (John 19:30), the entire Jewish temple service, including its sacrifices, “ceased” to be of value in the sight of God. It was “desolate.”

The entire drama surrounding the fate of the Temple included the Jews, the Messiah, and finally, Roman armies led by Titus that finished the job in 70 A.D. To make it simple, here is the entire text below with explanations in brackets:

(27) And he [Christ] shall confirm the [new] covenant with many for one week [the last 7-year period of Daniel 9:24]: and in the midst of the week [after 3 ½ years of holy ministry] he [Christ] shall cause [by His death on the cross] the sacrifice [of the Jewish Temple] and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations [of the Jewish leaders who instigated Christ’s death] he [Christ] shall make it [the Temple] desolate [Christ’s death ultimately finished the Temple service], even until the consummation [which occurred 40 years later when the Roman armies led by Titus finally burned the Temple to the ground and killed approximately one million Jews. See War of the Jews by Josephus], and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate [the Jewish nation and its Temple in 70 A.D.].

Christ’s death not only atoned for our sins, but it also meant the end of the Jewish temple service itself (making it desolate). Finally, in 70 A.D., Roman armies finished the job, thus completing “the desolation.”

Jesus clearly predicted the events of 70 A.D. when He forewarned His disciples, saying, “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh” (Luke 21:20).
Daniel 9:27b Explained - White Horse Media
Do you believe that another temple will be built for the son of perdition in 2Thesslaonians2:4 to sit in, claiming to be God ?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,629.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Saucy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2005
46,775
19,959
Michigan
✟895,820.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
OHC, why would Jesus desire to make His Father's house desolate ?
Isn't it through the Holy Spirit, we become the temple, so temple worship and sacrifice are no longer needed? When Christ died, the veil was torn from top to bottom. The spirit poured into believers at Pentecost.

For a long time I have been watching and waiting for a third temple to be built. I keep seeing news about a red heifer being found and all we need is the temple. So, does the Dome of the Rock need to fall? Will the third temple be built elsewhere? Is there any biblical evidence of a third temple or did the events already happen leading up to 70 AD?

Thank you to everyone who has answered in here so far!
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,559
4,834
59
Oregon
✟901,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I suggest going back to the Early Church and reading their interpretations of the End Times, which are neither Preterist nor Premillenial Dispensationalist
I believe this to be the case for, for among other reasons, its recent provenance and lack of support among the early Church Fathers

Maybe no individual ECF held that ALL Eschatology was fulfilled in 70AD However, when we accumulate all the individual prophesies that any given ECF on their own DID believe to be fulfilled in 70AD, and put them together, we arrive very near a consistent preterist position, even if they were personally inconsistent on their application thereof.

For certain, the greatest number of the earliest Christians believed that a number of, if not all, prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem. The challenge, in fact, is to find even one early Christian that didn't teach the Preterist interpretation of Matthew 24. The earliest and most significant writers were in unanimous agreement, proclaiming the fulfillment of these prophecies in the time of the AD70 destruction of the Jewish city, temple and nation.

Here's a snippet:

Origen - Against Celsus | John | Matthew "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem."

Chrysostom - Homilies on Matthew 24 "Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it."

Chrysostom - St. Chrysostom's Liturgy "Having in remembrance, therefore, this saving commandment and all those things which have come to pass for us: the Cross, the Grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Sitting at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming"

The ECFs recognized:

(1) that the great tribulation is past, transpiring at AD 66-70
(2) that AD 70 involved a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment

So, while they did not establish a biblically consistent preterism, they were far more preteristic in their understanding of eschatology than most modern futurists. The fact is that the ECFs had their hands full with formulating a consistent Christology (the nature of Christ and the Trinity), and didn't spend as much time formulating an orthodox, systematic eschatology. We know that the ECFs had mostly assigned Matthew 24 to the past, and the Protestant Reformers had a majority view that all Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

Classical preterism (i.e. The Catholic Preterism of the likes of James Aiken, Scott Hahn, St Cryssostom, St Thomas Aquinas, Eusebius, etc...) sees AD 70 as a temporal judgment-coming of God/Christ.

St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Eusebius all understood this basic principle of bible eschatology, and we really ought to take their words to heart.

As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's [future] coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)

And even St. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (AD 336-395)
"Do we romance about three Resurrections? Do we promise the gluttony of the Millennium? Do we declare that the Jewish animal-sacrifices shall be restored? Do we lower men's hopes again to the Jerusalem below, imagining its rebuilding with stones of a more brilliant material? What charge like these can be brought against us, that our company should be reckoned a thing to be avoided?"

Regardless, it's the views of the ECF from AD30-70 who's views we ought to prefer when they are shown to contradict the views of the Later ECF.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,590
8,226
50
The Wild West
✟762,880.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Maybe no individual ECF held that ALL Eschatology was fulfilled in 70AD However, when we accumulate all the individual prophesies that any given ECF on their own DID believe to be fulfilled in 70AD, and put them together, we arrive very near a consistent preterist position, even if they were personally inconsistent on their application thereof.

For certain, the greatest number of the earliest Christians believed that a number of, if not all, prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem. The challenge, in fact, is to find even one early Christian that didn't teach the Preterist interpretation of Matthew 24. The earliest and most significant writers were in unanimous agreement, proclaiming the fulfillment of these prophecies in the time of the AD70 destruction of the Jewish city, temple and nation.

Here's a snippet:

Origen - Against Celsus | John | Matthew "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem."

Chrysostom - Homilies on Matthew 24 "Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it."

Chrysostom - St. Chrysostom's Liturgy "Having in remembrance, therefore, this saving commandment and all those things which have come to pass for us: the Cross, the Grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Sitting at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming"

The ECFs recognized:

(1) that the great tribulation is past, transpiring at AD 66-70
(2) that AD 70 involved a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment

So, while they did not establish a biblically consistent preterism, they were far more preteristic in their understanding of eschatology than most modern futurists. The fact is that the ECFs had their hands full with formulating a consistent Christology (the nature of Christ and the Trinity), and didn't spend as much time formulating an orthodox, systematic eschatology. We know that the ECFs had mostly assigned Matthew 24 to the past, and the Protestant Reformers had a majority view that all Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

Classical preterism (i.e. The Catholic Preterism of the likes of James Aiken, Scott Hahn, St Cryssostom, St Thomas Aquinas, Eusebius, etc...) sees AD 70 as a temporal judgment-coming of God/Christ.

St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Eusebius all understood this basic principle of bible eschatology, and we really ought to take their words to heart.

As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's [future] coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)

And even St. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (AD 336-395)
"Do we romance about three Resurrections? Do we promise the gluttony of the Millennium? Do we declare that the Jewish animal-sacrifices shall be restored? Do we lower men's hopes again to the Jerusalem below, imagining its rebuilding with stones of a more brilliant material? What charge like these can be brought against us, that our company should be reckoned a thing to be avoided?"

Regardless, it's the views of the ECF from AD30-70 who's views we ought to prefer when they are shown to contradict the views of the Later ECF.

To be clear, I am not talking about that, but “Full Preterism”, which is restricted in discussion to Controversial Christian Theology and is a belief that all Eschatological items in Scripture already happened, not merely the obvious ones such as the destruction of the Temple, our Lord predicting the display of an idol of Caligula posing as Jupiter in the Temple, and so on. Because clearly that aspect of Preterism is scripturally based. However Full Preterism is a whole different animal. It’s like the difference between a Civet Cat and a housecat…less closely related than a housecat and a lion.

Indeed I edited my post to say “Full preterist” and I apologize for the confusion, that said, it did prompt you to provide some exquisite Patristic quotations. Although I would note that the Roman Catholic Church does not reckon St. Thomas Aquinas a Church Father but rather a Schoolman, as they consider the last Patristic theologian was St. John of Damascus, and after him followed the Scholastics like St. Odo of Cluny, Anselm of Canterbury, and St. Thomas Aquinas. The Eastern Orthodox disagree and regard St. Gregory Palamas, who is often regarded as the Eastern Orthodox equivalent of St. Thomas Aquinas (certainly, both used Aristotle, but Palamas was not a systematic theologian like St. Aquinas but rather the defender of the Hesychasts, I would consider him a mystical theologian, and Aquinas has become increasingly popular in Eastern Orthodox circles; there is a book I greatly desire for my library called An Orthodox Reading of Thomas Aquinas).
 
Last edited:
  • Friendly
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0

wonderkins

Active Member
Jul 16, 2017
309
215
Winlock
✟166,268.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Two.

1. The term transgression of desolation is found in Daniel 8:12-13. It is an act versus a thing like the abomination of desolation to be setup.

The transgression of desolation "act" will be the act of the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood, in Thessalonians2:4. That act will trigger the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

It also ends the Antichrist's time as being the King of Israel thought to be messiah. As the person is revealed to be the man of sin.

2. The abomination of desolation setup is found in Daniel 12:11-12. It will be the statue image made of the beast in Revelation 13.


To be correct, technically, and not the common usage of the term, the person is the Anti (instead of and against Jesus the true Christ) - christ only for the time he is the King of Israel messiah of the false messianic age.

At other times, he is the little horn, over a coalition of ten EU leaders in particular, starting out.

Then following Gog/Magog, he is the prince who shall come.

Then he is anointed the King of Israel messiah by the false prophet (Judaism believes that their coming messiah will be anointed by a known prophet). Thus becoming the Antichrist.

Then after three years thereabouts, he commits the ToD act, revealing himself as the man of sin, and not the messiah after all. Ending his time as the Antichrist.

God has him killed for the act, in Ezekiel 28:1-10, assassinated by strangers to him.

A week or so later, God brings him back alive in disdain for the person, and as the strong delusion that God sends to those who will have believed his achieved God-hood claim lie. In 2Thessalonians2:11.

At which time of coming back to life, is possessed by the cunning spirit of the serpent beast from Genesis now in the bottomless pit, he earns the term the beast in Revelation 13 and from there to his end.

That is an often made argument.

Although the term is not found written in previous text of the bible - the concept of the Antichrist was commonly known by them John was addressing in 1John.

As they had "heard", not read. They heard from persons like John himself, who quoted Jesus in John 5:43 about the Jews rejecting him (as their king) but accepting another (as their king).

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The Antichrist will reject the Father and Son principle of Christianity. The Antichrist will deny Jesus in all facets. It is what the Jews expect of their anticipated messiah.


'
The reason I bring it up is, in Josephus, of the war book 6 chapter 10, the siege of Jerusalem in 70ad is ending and he says it is the second desolation of Jerusalem. I suppose that all assumes you care what he said. But he was a Jewish pharisee and historian.

Here's a part of that:

Chapter 10.

That whereas the city of Jerusalem had been five times taken formerly, this was the second time of its desolation. A brief account of its history.

1. And thus was Jerusalem taken, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, on the eighth day of the month Gorpeius [Elul] [A.D. 70]. It had been taken five (28) times before: though this was the second time of its desolation.


As for the antichrist, if the Bible doesn't give that title to a specific person, maybe we also shouldn't. I say that as someone who no longer believes in the antichrist figure that so many are looking for.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0