I'm starting to change my mind about the End Times (help!)

keras said:

That is how it is during this Christian age.
But it won't be in the future, as God does not change. He wanted sacrifices and offerings in the past and He will do so again. Proved by Zechariah 14:16-21
This does not abrogate the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus for our sins now.

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Jesus said that he did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it. Fulfill means met the obligation. The only law that could be fulfilled is the cerimonial law, the law of sacrifices of lambs that pointed forward to the lamb of GOD being offered for all mankinds sins.

type vs anti type

Why do you think the curtain was rent in twan?

John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

What was finished? The plan of salvation was finished with the last blood sacrifice offered for mankinds sins, the blood of Jesus. Therefor no need for blood sacrifices except to pagan gods.

Douggg said:

As SDA, do you support Christians rebuilding the temple and starting animal sacrifices again ?

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Absolutly not

Douggg said:

Such as praying to the virgin Mary ? I don't think so.

keras, in his scenario thinks that Christians from around the world will migrate to the land of Israel, following a solar flare event. And then proceed to build a Christian nation called Beulah.

But there are Catholic Christians (a large number worldwide) and non-Catholic (also a large number worldwide) Christians, like SDA. Which of those two are going to give up their firmly held doctrines ?

One reason, I don't see the scenario as viable.

As SDA, do you support Christians rebuilding the temple and starting animal sacrifices again ?

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The New Testament is replete with the idea that the temple is the body of Jesus. Ephesians 2:19–22 says, “Ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God: And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” (See also 1 Peter 2:5.)

Even after God provides all this clear evidence that His temple is a spiritual one, many Christians are waiting for the Jews to receive a construction permit to rebuild a physical temple on the site where a Muslim mosque now sits. However, there is no prophecy, promise, or commandment in the Bible that says the physical temple would ever be rebuilt after the Romans razed it nearly 2,000 years ago.
Does the temple need to be rebuilt? | AF News | Amazing Facts

Original Happy Camper said:

However, there is no prophecy, promise, or commandment in the Bible that says the physical temple would ever be rebuilt

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This is qn absolute denial of many Prophesies.
The Temple will be rebuilt:

Zechariah 8:2 Again, the word of the Lord came to me; I am very jealous for Zion, I am burning with jealousy for her. [the Lord will clear the holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43]

Zechariah 8:3 This is what the Lord says; I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem, it will be called the City of Faithfulness and the Temple mount will be called the Holy Mountain.

Zechariah 8:4-5 This is what the Lord Almighty says; Once again old people and children will inhabit the streets of Jerusalem.

Zechariah 8:6 This is what the Lord Almighty says; Even if this may seem impossible to the remnant of this nation, will it be impossible for Me?

Zechariah 8:7-8 These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.

The Land cleansed, His faithful Christian people gathered and settled in the Land. Back to Jerusalem: the place of origin for our Christian faith.


Zechariah 8:9 These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; Take heart, all you who now hear that the Temple is to be rebuilt as the prophets foretold. [Zechariah 6:15, Haggai 2:6-9, +]

Zechariah 8:10 Before that time, there was no hiring of man or beast, because of your enemies, for I had set every man against his neighbour.

Zechariah 8:11 But, I do not feel the same toward the remnant of this people as I did in former days, says the Lord of Hosts.

Zechariah 8:12 For they will sow in safety, I will give them rain and the Land will yield it’s produce. This is the inheritance of My people.
The heritage of every faithful Christian person, from every tribe, race, nation and language.

Saucy said:

I apologize if this is not the right place for this.

I wanted some help with End Times theology. For most of my Christian walk, I've believed in the Left Behind type of theology. The tribulation is ahead of us and will be kicked off by the rapture of the church.

But all of a sudden I've been introduced to preterist theology and I don't know what to believe anymore. Could Daniel and even Revelations have warned about Nero being the fulfillment of being the little horn rising up as the Beast of the Sea? I heard he matches up with 666, he ended temple sacrifice after breaking a treaty with Jerusalem, and so much more.

I always heard that the best would be killed and brought back from the dead, which I just read the beast was Rome and after Nero killed himself, the empire was surely dead, but "came back to life" better than ever after Vespasian came to rule.

This is difficult for me because I have been waiting for the return of the Messiah. Is He not supposed to return after the tribulation? What have we been doing for the last 2,000 years if the tribulation happened so long ago? Was Nero the antichrist?

I don't know what to believe anymore! Please help me out if you have some answers for me (or even share good books and resources that can help me.) Thanks!

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Good thread Saucy. One caution though. 'Left behind' theology and 'Preterism' are two extremes opposite to each other. Try looking for something more in the middle. I recommend the A-millennial system. If you arn't prepared to let go of a literal 1000-year reign on earth you should opt for historic pre-millennial.

Blessings.

I was kind of where you were about 20 years ago but by main thing was about the pretrib doctrine. I used to believe that as well but I found it not to be biblical.

As some have suggested start with Christ and the gospels -Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.

But after that I would then read the entire bible if you are really wanting truth -chapter by chapter, verse by verse. And if you're reading from the KJames, a strong's concordance is a huge help seeing how some words can be lost in translation and some words can also have different meanings when translated and utilized in different verses.
That's how I went into my studies. I kept thinking how can I call myself a Christian and I had never read the bible in it's entirety? It's our Father's letter to us. That was over 20 years ago and I'm still trying to study and let the word grow each and every day. But someone planted a seed for me that certain doctrines I had been "taught" were not biblical. And I found out they were right. I actually stopped going to church after that. One could spend a lifetime in certain churches and walk away only being fed milk.

Much prophecy about the end times can be found in the OT as well. That's how I went into my studies -only seeking the truth after I started dropping doctrines that I found could not be backed up in the Bible.

But I do think the subject of the end times is extremely important or else Christ would not have given strict warnings as well as Paul on the subject of deception. And Paul is talking to the Thessalonians about that, not the Jews. And he's preaching to the Ephesians about having the full armour on to be able to stand in that evil "day" and to fight Satan. Satan and his will be here at some point. I don't believe that's happened yet. He will be disgused as an angel of light (Paul's teaching) and performing miracles in the sight of men. And it's by those miracles that the entire world will be ensnared. He will be bringing peace and prosperity (Daniel and 1st Thes). People will be thinking he's the savior. Anti in the Greek can mean "instead" of. He will be here instead of Christ proclaiming to be God. I don't think that fits Nero. (or Titus) The true Christ returns at the 7th trump. Right before that people will be thinking "peace and safety" and then bam, destruction when the true Christ returns.

I'm giving you some of my beliefs as well but really we all have to follow our own course in what we think the Holy Spirit is trying to tell us.

keras said:

Zechariah 8:7-8 These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.

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The reason Zechariah said "I am about to rescue My people" is because that was about 5 years before the 2nd temple was completed and the exiles were returning. Zechariah's prophecy was totally about the second temple period right up to it's destruction.

Saucy said:

But all of a sudden I've been introduced to preterist theology and I don't know what to believe anymore.

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Believe that the Great Tribulation will start in exactly 150 years (it will not, but you will not be alive then, so that fact is irrelevant). Then live your life as if you will be called to give an accounting for how you "invested" the days on this earth that you were given.

Whatever happens, Jesus has your back and God has it covered. So don't sweat the stuff that ain't yours. Focus on your neighbor across the street and the person in the next work cubicle ... God sent THEM to you and put YOU by them.

That's my 2 cents.

Ed Parenteau said:

The reason Zechariah said "I am about to rescue My people" is because that was about 5 years before the 2nd temple was completed and the exiles were returning. Zechariah's prophecy was totally about the second temple period right up to it's destruction.

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Just how much faithfulness and justice happened then?
No; Zechariah 8:1-23 simply does not fit anywhere in history. It is an end times Prophecy.

Zechariah 8:22 Many peoples and mighty nations will go up to the Lord in Jerusalem and entreat His favor. During the Millennium. Zechariah 14:16-21`

keras said:

Just how much faithfulness and justice happened then?
No; Zechariah 8:1-23 simply does not fit anywhere in history. It is an end times Prophecy.

Zechariah 8:22 Many peoples and mighty nations will go up to the Lord in Jerusalem and entreat His favor. During the Millennium. Zechariah 14:16-21`

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The millennium was that period of time when Christ was reigning on David's throne at the right hand of the Father, and ended with the casting out of Jerusalem in the generation Christ said it would happen, therefore fulfilling the law and the prophets as promised.
Matthew 5:17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Are you claiming that 100% of the law is still being kept?

Ed Parenteau said:

The millennium was that period of time when Christ was reigning on David's throne at the right hand of the Father, and ended with the casting out of Jerusalem in the generation Christ said it would happen, therefore fulfilling the law and the prophets as promised.

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The Millennium will be a thousand years, commencing when Jesus Returns. NOT 40 years!

Your belief is a direct rejection of Revelation 20.

keras said:

The Millennium will be a thousand years, commencing when Jesus Returns. NOT 40 years!

Your belief is a direct rejection of Revelation 20.

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No, it's a direct rejection of an earthly reign. For, Jesus must be received into heaven until the time of the restoration of all things according to all the prophets of old(Acts 3:21) where He reigns until all his enemies have been put under His feet, the last is death(1 Corinthians 15:25, Acts 2:29-36) which happens Rev 21.
Why would you take what John sees in a vision while in the spirit as materially literal?

Ed Parenteau said:

Why would you take what John sees in a vision while in the spirit as materially literal?

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Because Jesus gave the vision to John - so His servants will know what will soon take place. Revelation 1:1

keras said:

Because Jesus gave the vision to John - so His servants will know what will soon take place. Revelation 1:1

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Then why do you believe the 1000yrs as seen in his vision didn't soon take place? Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father where He would reign( 1 Corinthians 15:25) until the last enemy which is death was destroyed which happened in Rev 21. Therefore, it can't be an earthly reign of 1000 years. It's a heavenly reign where a 1000 years is as a day or a watch in the night, therefore the fulfillment of the Exodus's 40 years with fulfillment of the fall feasts in the fall of AD 70 when the walls of Jerusalem fell. Jericho was a type of Jerusalem as Joshua was a type of Christ. Christ leading us into the true eternal promised land--Himself.
When John went in the spirit in Rev 1, Jesus explained what the symbols John saw meant. This is indicating that what he sees in the spirit will be symbolic. Certainly you don't believe Jesus is a literal lamb with seven eyes and seven horns, or looks like jasper and carnelian, or a rider on a white horse with a sword coming out of His mouth, or Rev 1:14The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. 15His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters. 16He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest.
It seems to me that the things John sees in the spirit are symbolic.

Saucy said:

I apologize if this is not the right place for this.

I wanted some help with End Times theology. For most of my Christian walk, I've believed in the Left Behind type of theology. The tribulation is ahead of us and will be kicked off by the rapture of the church.

But all of a sudden I've been introduced to preterist theology and I don't know what to believe anymore. Could Daniel and even Revelations have warned about Nero being the fulfillment of being the little horn rising up as the Beast of the Sea? I heard he matches up with 666, he ended temple sacrifice after breaking a treaty with Jerusalem, and so much more.

I always heard that the best would be killed and brought back from the dead, which I just read the beast was Rome and after Nero killed himself, the empire was surely dead, but "came back to life" better than ever after Vespasian came to rule.

This is difficult for me because I have been waiting for the return of the Messiah. Is He not supposed to return after the tribulation? What have we been doing for the last 2,000 years if the tribulation happened so long ago? Was Nero the antichrist?

I don't know what to believe anymore! Please help me out if you have some answers for me (or even share good books and resources that can help me.) Thanks!

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In my opinion, Nero was definitely anti-Christian, but not the Antichrist referred to in Revelation.
The Antichrist will be born prior to the tribulations (in fact, I believe he is a very young man at this moment). The tribulations are basically all of the natural disasters that occur when the sixth and seventh seals of the book in heaven are broken by Jesus.
The first six of the seven Trumpets sounded by angels in Revelation herald the natural disasters and the bowls of wrath are the consequences of of these disasters. For example, the first Trumpet heralds a massive volcanic eruption and the 1st bowl of wrath is what occurs to mankind after this eruption. This continues until the seventh Trumpet, which heralds the arrival of Jesus back to our world. This happens when the situation in the world is bleak and darkest after Armageddon occurs in the 3rd WW.
By my calculations, the Antichrist will become the 51st president of the USA, and will return as the 53rd president of the USA.
When he loses the election in between, it is the metaphorical fatal wound to the head (ie: he is the head of the country). He is also the 6th and 8th 'king' after his father, which fits with biblical prophecy (sorry, I don't have time to put all the biblical verses that correspond to these events).
It is also interesting that by my calculations, the Antichrist will in fact come to power on the 1st day of the 666th holy month (30 day months) of his life. So we have a few decades to wait before these events begin to occur.
As you may have noticed, the wicked of the world are getting wickeder; incidences of hate, crime and war are on the rise (per biblical prophecy). As promised, God has brought to us a device (computer/internet) that blinds those of wicked intent to the truth. We already see massive polarization in the American populace (and in many other countries) where many are led by conspiracy theories and lies that are perpetuated as the algorithms within their media applications provide links to more extreme theories.
The end-time prophecies are coming to fruition; we are part it. In my opinion, the end-time countdown began on September 11th 2001. This countdown will last 77 holy years (360 day years or 12x 30 day months).
God bless you and your family.
Love God, love yourself and love your neighbor!

Ed Parenteau said:

Then why do you believe the 1000yrs as seen in his vision didn't soon take place?

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Because the things Prophesied from Revelation 6:12 to Rev 19:10, must take place before Jesus Returns.
The 'soon' to Jesus in heaven is just 2 'days'. Which are 2000 years earth time.

Ed Parenteau said:

When John went in the spirit in Rev 1, Jesus explained what the symbols John saw meant. This is indicating that what he sees in the spirit will be symbolic

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This is wakadoodle.
John sees symbols. Jesus explains them as physical things and events.
Then you say they are still symbols?

keras said:

Because the things Prophesied from Revelation 6:12 to Rev 19:10, must take place before Jesus Returns.
The 'soon' to Jesus in heaven is just 2 'days'. Which are 2000 years earth time.

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So now we know that 3rd woe happens 2000 years after the second woe.
Revelation 11:14The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.

Here Jesus threatens the church at Pergamum that if they don't repent, He's coming to them in 2000 years Revelation 2:16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.

keras said:

This is wakadoodle.
John sees symbols. Jesus explains them as physical things and events.
Then you say they are still symbols?

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I have absolutely no clue as to how you interpreted what I said that way. I used the future tense(what he sees in the spirit will be symbolic) and gave several examples of what I meant afterwards.

Ed Parenteau said:

So now we know that 3rd woe happens 2000 years after the second woe.

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None of the 'woes' have passed yet.
We wait for all the things Prophesied from the Sixth seal onward, to take place.

Ed Parenteau said:

Here Jesus threatens the church at Pergamum that if they don't repent, He's coming to them in 2000 years Revelation 2:16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.

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All of the seven Churchs are types, they represent Churchs today, is their various stages of development.

Ed Parenteau said:

It seems to me that the things John sees in the spirit are symbolic.

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Of course the allegories like the 7 headed Lamb, are symbolic, but symbols are representative of actual people or things. It isn't too difficult to understand them.

keras said:

None of the 'woes' have passed yet.
We wait for all the things Prophesied from the Sixth seal onward, to take place.

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Based on "your" declaration that soon=2,000years, when the 2nd woe passes it will be 2,000 years until the 3rd woe passes. And besides that, where'd you get this "new revelation" of "soon" meaning 2000 years from?

keras said:

All of the seven Churchs are types, they represent Churchs today, is their various stages of development.

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Unless you can prove that from scripture, that's just arbitrarily creating your own revelation and replacing God's revelation with it because youth don't believe what He told the seven churches. In fact, futurists change not only the meaning of words they don't like, they change the meaning of personal pronouns and verbs also and pretend they are directed at themselves rather than those to whom they were directed.

keras said:

Of course the allegories like the 7 headed Lamb, are symbolic, but symbols are representative of actual people or things. It isn't too difficult to understand them.

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So then, what are the symbols in revelation 20 and who and what do they represent?

Ed Parenteau said:

where'd you get this "new revelation" of "soon" meaning 2000 years from?

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2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4.
A thousand years on earth is like a day to God in heaven.

Like most people, you will only understand the Prophesies as they happen. Isaiah 35:4-5, Matthew 11:25