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"I'm not an expert, BUT......."

juvenissun

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I suppose its all well and good for the interpretation that seems right to you to be the "correct" one... as long as you stick to theology and stay out of the physical world. But that's not what you guys do... now is it? And that's the problem. In the real physical world, there is only one correct answer... and the best way to find it is with science, not with creationism. Certainly not with non-experts sitting on a couch and musing over lines from scripture.



This is the fallacy of the false dichotomy, as has already been pointed out ot you numerous times. In any case, you have yet to show us that evolution is wrong. So, where does that leave you?

I did it every time I care to pick up an issue of evolution. I always succeeded.

The only thing I need to do is to find an exception or a contradiction to the conclusion of the study. And that is super easy. That is basically why evolution is wrong. It only explain one very specific feature, but has to ignore an overwhelmingly amount of exceptions. There is not any other scientific theory as limited as that.
 
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AV1611VET

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I'm sorry, juv, but where have you ever succeeded in showing evolution is wrong? Just one little example?
Care to tell us what would falsify this theory of evolution?

And I mean falsify it -- I don't mean send you guys behind closed doors to peer review yourselves to death, only to come out with one or two new theories.

And while you're at it, care to tell us what evidence those who peer review against this theory of evolution use to try and refute it?

Or, as I suspect, evolution is treated like it's as rock-solid as mathematics?
 
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Nathan Poe

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Care to tell us what would falsify this theory of evolution?

And I mean falsify it -- I don't mean send you guys behind closed doors to peer review yourselves to death, only to come out with one or two new theories.

And while you're at it, care to tell us what evidence those who peer review against this theory of evolution use to try and refute it?

Or, as I suspect, evolution is treated like it's as rock-solid as mathematics?

Well, a creationist willing to do their own homework would certainly shake a whole lot of beliefs to their foundations.
 
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AV1611VET

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Well, a creationist willing to do their own homework would certainly shake a whole lot of beliefs to their foundations.
I doubt it.
 
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Split Rock

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I did it every time I care to pick up an issue of evolution. I always succeeded.
I guess we need to put you in the came category as dad, then. You are only "undefeated" in your own mind. In the real world, where the rest of us live, you have never succeeded in disputing evolution.

The only thing I need to do is to find an exception or a contradiction to the conclusion of the study. And that is super easy. That is basically why evolution is wrong. It only explain one very specific feature, but has to ignore an overwhelmingly amount of exceptions. There is not any other scientific theory as limited as that.
Absurd. Evolution explains the diversity and distribution of all life on earth. That is a pretty big series of features. Where are the exceptions you speak of?

Your Noble Prize awaits you, Juvie!
 
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Naraoia

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Care to tell us what would falsify this theory of evolution?
The ToE is a large and complex theory, so to falsify the whole ToE, an awful lot of hypotheses would need to be wrong. However, it's possible to break it down and come up with observations that would falsify various parts of it. Or would have - there are things that weren't known at the time the ToE emerged and could have turned out to contradict it, but didn't.

There is now so much evidence for the origination of life's diversity through evolution (from the fossil record to molecular phylogenetics), and for some of the specifics (e.g. adaptation through selection) that nothing short of a miracle could completely overturn them. That doesn't mean they are unfalsifiable, only that they aren't awfully likely to be falsified. They could have been.

For example, evolution by natural selection would be dead if there were no beneficial mutations - or even if beneficial mutations existed, but couldn't actually lead to adaptation in the wild for whatever reason.

As Darwin noted in Origin, if a feature was found in an organism that existed solely for the benefit of another creature, it would "annihilate" his theory:
Origin said:
Natural selection cannot possibly produce any modification in any one species exclusively for the good of another species; though throughout nature one species incessantly takes advantage of, and profits by, the structure of another. But natural selection can and does often produce structures for the direct injury of other species, as we see in the fang of the adder, and in the ovipositor of the ichneumon, by which its eggs are deposited in the living bodies of other insects. If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory, for such could not have been produced through natural selection.
Common descent would be falsified if it turned out that lineages were unable to split, since for two or more different life forms to share a common ancestor, they must have diverged from that ancestor.

Or, for that matter, if any evidence was found of your boundaries that nature cannot cross, we'd be in trouble.

Or, for that matter, if we never saw novelties - new genes at the very least - form.

The neat idea of common descent producing a tree of life was falsified by the discovery of (really quite extensive) horizontal gene transfer. The tree of life is only a good approximation of what's going on for some groups of organisms. When you get to things like bacteria, individual genes may have family trees, but the history of the organisms themselves is more of a tangled net.

Positive evidence that the appearance of evolution was produced by some other process (say, divine intervention ;)) also comes here.

And the obligatory mention of the Precambrian bunny - anything that out of place wouldn't necessarily invalidate everything else we have inferred about the history of life on earth, but it would be a puzzle current evolutionary theory couldn't solve.

And I mean falsify it -- I don't mean send you guys behind closed doors to peer review yourselves to death, only to come out with one or two new theories.
*rolleyes* Talking to you would be a lot less frustrating if you could drop the endless science-hating for just a moment. What's wrong with peer-review anyway? (I could probably think of a few things that are "wrong" with it, but I want to know why you are so cynical about it.)

And while you're at it, care to tell us what evidence those who peer review against this theory of evolution use to try and refute it?
While we are at it, care to show me an example or two of "those"?

Or, as I suspect, evolution is treated like it's as rock-solid as mathematics?
Not quite as rock-solid as mathematics, but as rock-solid as any scientific theory. If you're happy with relativity, atomic theory or quantum mechanics, you ought to be happy with evolution. It's no less well-evidenced than those.

I can guarantee you, if observations pop up that contradict what we think we know of evolution, they will be picked up by science. It happens on a smaller scale all the time, and that's why the ToE of today is a different theory from what it was 150 years ago.
 
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Split Rock

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Care to tell us what would falsify this theory of evolution?

And I mean falsify it -- I don't mean send you guys behind closed doors to peer review yourselves to death, only to come out with one or two new theories.
We've been over this before, no?

1. Mammal fossils in the Cambrian.
2. The nested hierarchy of life based on morphology does not match that based on genetic sequence.
3. Cetaceans genetic sequence closer to fish than terrestrial mammals.
4. True chimeras like pegasus, manticores, etc.

And while you're at it, care to tell us what evidence those who peer review against this theory of evolution use to try and refute it?
There isn't any that I have seen.

Or, as I suspect, evolution is treated like it's as rock-solid as mathematics?
It is pretty rock solid, yes. That is what we have been trying to tell you guys for years now.
 
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juvenissun

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I'm sorry, juv, but where have you ever succeeded in showing evolution is wrong? Just one little example?

Bacteria do not evolve into non-bacteria.

Remember that one? I can't remember other shorter ones.

Anyway, if you like, we can start a fresh one anytime.
 
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juvenissun

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I guess we need to put you in the came category as dad, then. You are only "undefeated" in your own mind. In the real world, where the rest of us live, you have never succeeded in disputing evolution.


Absurd. Evolution explains the diversity and distribution of all life on earth. That is a pretty big series of features. Where are the exceptions you speak of?

Your Noble Prize awaits you, Juvie!

Give you a summary:

Evolution has explanations 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ...
That 1 explains A; 2 explains B, 3 explains C, etc.

BUT, 1 can not explain B, C, D, ... etc. 2 can not explain A, C, D, ... etc.

That is what you mean by "evolution can explain everything".
The very strictly confined "successful" explanations can only cheat high school students (and some dumb ones in my 101 class).
 
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Nathan Poe

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Give you a summary:

No, what you've got here is a pile of incoherent gibberish, not a "summary" of anything.

Evolution has explanations 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ...
That 1 explains A; 2 explains B, 3 explains C, etc.

BUT, 1 can not explain B, C, D, ... etc. 2 can not explain A, C, D, ... etc.

the point is that everything is explained -- so what's your complaint?
 
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Skavau

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The science of evolution model is fine.
The implication of evolution model is evil. That is why I want to defeat it.
So there we are then. You admit that evolution is scientifically true but want to destroy it because you think its evil. You confirm again my analysis of creationism.

Apparently the truth comes second to you than making reality appear nice.
 
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Nathan Poe

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So there we are then. You admit that evolution is scientifically true but want to destroy it because you think its evil. You confirm again my analysis of creationism.

Apparently the truth comes second to you than making reality appear nice.

Wtih creationism used as a tool for social control and personal glory, I'd say putting truth second is far too generous.
 
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mzungu

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Bacteria do not evolve into non-bacteria.

Remember that one? I can't remember other shorter ones.

Anyway, if you like, we can start a fresh one anytime.
So please explain to us how you came to be from the elements that make up your body? How on earth does Magnesium or Calcium, or any of the elements make up a living human being?

Your question is flawed simply because that is not how evolution works. It is very common amongst creationists to think that evolution allows for a crocoduck.

I don't even know why I take the time to answer to your posts:doh:
 
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KBD

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I think the question is a fair one for Christians. We are not usually experts at geology or other areas of science. It boils down to a single problem--if a Christian insists on their version of an absolute literal approach to the Bible then they feel must defend it literally, even when it doesn't measure up to the fossil record, scientific facts, etc.
I personally think this is a wrong approach. If the sun and moon were not even created until the 4th day--according to Genesis--why must we insist on literal 24 hour days of creation? What if God merely revealed His creation plan to Moses over a period of 7 days? I think the absolute literalist approach to the Bible is wrong, because it misses the bigger picture.
The Bible is a book of theology and teaching first and foremost, and not a science text book. One can believe the stories of the Bible and grasp the teaching without demanding everything be taken absolutely literally. The point it makes is that God is Creator, humankind fallen beings prone to sin, and that God is involved with His creation and humanity. But to use the Bible as an excuse for ignoring facts and denying truth is a big mistake that hurts our credibility with the non-Christian world.
This does not mean we should set aside our skepticism of science or our right to question the facts presented, but faith in God does not demand denial of scientific truth.
Science can neither prove nor disprove the reality of God. We need not fear science. A willingness to consider that Jesus used parables and stories to teach greater truths in the New Testament can be used as a pattern looking backward towards Geneses. Don't fear science, don't fear truth, Jesus is the friend of truth, and we should be as well.
 
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mzungu

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I think the question is a fair one for Christians. We are not usually experts at geology or other areas of science. It boils down to a single problem--if a Christian insists on their version of an absolute literal approach to the Bible then they feel must defend it literally, even when it doesn't measure up to the fossil record, scientific facts, etc.
I personally think this is a wrong approach. If the sun and moon were not even created until the 4th day--according to Genesis--why must we insist on literal 24 hour days of creation? What if God merely revealed His creation plan to Moses over a period of 7 days? I think the absolute literalist approach to the Bible is wrong, because it misses the bigger picture.
The Bible is a book of theology and teaching first and foremost, and not a science text book. One can believe the stories of the Bible and grasp the teaching without demanding everything be taken absolutely literally. The point it makes is that God is Creator, humankind fallen beings prone to sin, and that God is involved with His creation and humanity. But to use the Bible as an excuse for ignoring facts and denying truth is a big mistake that hurts our credibility with the non-Christian world.
This does not mean we should set aside our skepticism of science or our right to question the facts presented, but faith in God does not demand denial of scientific truth.
Science can neither prove nor disprove the reality of God. We need not fear science. A willingness to consider that Jesus used parables and stories to teach greater truths in the New Testament can be used as a pattern looking backward towards Geneses. Don't fear science, don't fear truth, Jesus is the friend of truth, and we should be as well.
I absolutely agree with you. Jesus spoke in parables and this point seems to be missed by many who take the Bible literally.

People see a threat in something because of ignorance. Many Scientists are Christians and they certainly have no problem between their faith and science.

Faith is a spiritual thing, and the Bible is a book of faith which in turn is a spiritual guide. It certainly is not a science text book and anyone who tries to interpret it as such is missing the whole point of what Jesus taught.

Science deals with the physical world and religion with the spiritual world. Apples and oranges are both fruit and good to eat and enjoy and not to be compared with each other!

:wave:
 
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AV1611VET

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Hello and welcome to CF! :wave:
If the sun and moon were not even created until the 4th day--according to Genesis--why must we insist on literal 24 hour days of creation?
When I read stuff like this, it negates all the science that is presented before it, and all the science that is presented after it; as it shows me that science isn't being applied when Genesis 1 is brought up; and I then suspect subterfuge.

Anyone should realize that you don't need the sun and the moon for a 24-hour period to elapse.

One rotation of the earth on its axis should do it; but for the record, even that isn't required.
 
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AV1611VET

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I absolutely agree with you. Jesus spoke in parables and this point seems to be missed by many who take the Bible literally.
Jesus' parables were real occurrences He witnessed Himself.
 
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juvenissun

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So there we are then. You admit that evolution is scientifically true but want to destroy it because you think its evil. You confirm again my analysis of creationism.

Apparently the truth comes second to you than making reality appear nice.

You have to be very careful in reading so you can get the real meaning in an argument.

I did not say that. What I said was:

Evolution "model" is scientific. I did not say its implication is true.

Give an example: Evolution said that human evolved from chimp. I accept that methods used in those studies are scientific. But I reject the conclusion.
 
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