I'm listening......

[shernren]

Evolution would suggest there was death before Adam: A christian believes it was through Adam's fall that sin and death entered the world= No sin and no death before adam. This is part of the gospel and the work of Jesus Christ. As in adam all have sinned so in Christ all have been made alive.

Here's a question: Did Jesus Christ die for the animals?

No? But I thought He came to conquer death!

That quick thought experiment reveals that when it comes to "no death before the Fall" it can extend, at most, to humans. There is no moral element in the death of an animal, because there is no moral element in the life of an animal. Morality is defined under Christian absolute terms as compliance with God's clearly expressed will. God never gave animals the free choice to disobey His commands, and therefore animals never sinned. Therefore animals have not had to suffer the consequence of the Fall directly.

Animals have had to suffer indirectly, though, through man's greed. Although the Fall has not done anything directly to animals, it has done something terrible to man, who in turn projects this greed onto destruction of the environment. Mind you, in many cases death helps the environment. A prime example is the problem of immigrant species. When a foreign, more robust species is introduced into an ecosystem, it quickly overwhelms the natives and causes extinction. What is the solution? Death for the immigrants, of course!

Who are we to know for sure that God did not intend animals to die? "God is love" does not mean "God is cuddly". God's love is a fearsome love and I see no reason why His perfection in creation cannot include death as a method to balance and cycle the ecosystem.

Jesus suffered and died on a cross to redeem us from Adam's fall. He suffered literal hideous torture for an allegorical fall?

We are not saying that the Fall was merely allegorical. We are saying (some of us, at any rate) that the Genesis 2 description of the Fall is allegorical. If something is described allegorically that does not mean it does not exist.

What we are saying is that sin didn't necessarily come into the world because some bloke pushed a piece of contraband carbohydrate down his pharynx. We are saying that sin comes into the world right here and right now, whenever we do something wrong, whenever we know what God says and end up turning the other way. That is our fall here and now. That is what Jesus comes to save us from.

The bible clearly states that the time frames required for evolution just do not exist. If God's word is false on this, then chances are its false elsewhere?

What is clear to you may not be clear to us and may not have been clear to the Jews when God gave them Genesis. Do you know for sure that God specifically said "six days" in order that nobody would believe seven, or eight, or ten, or twelve ... or that God said "six days" just to get a point across to the Israelites, the point that He was and is the Creator?

 

[lismore]

Where does scripture suggest there was no bacterial, plant or animal death before Adam? How could Eden have been a functioning eco-system without death?

hello

Jesus Christ redeemed to undo the fall.

Things will be:

4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

(Rev 21).

Perhaps you believe this is not literal though? maybe it just means things are going to be abit better?

 

[lismore]

What is clear to you may not be clear to us and may not have been clear to the Jews when God gave them Genesis. Do you know for sure that God specifically said "six days" in order that nobody would believe seven, or eight, or ten, or twelve ... or that God said "six days" just to get a point across to the Israelites, the point that He was and is the Creator?

That depends on what your view of God is. Some believe God will tell the truth to those who will listen, no matter how shocking or unbelievable that truth is. Others believe what you say.

At the end of the day believe what you like.

 

[gluadys]

hello

Jesus Christ redeemed to undo the fall.

Things will be:

4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

(Rev 21).

Perhaps you believe this is not literal though? maybe it just means things are going to be abit better?

This is a clear reference to human death, but I don't know that it has anything to do with the death of carrots. Do they suffer pain when they die? Do they mourn or weep when they see other carrots die?

I have no problem with the concept that the fall occurred before the first human death. But I see no scriptural or logical support for the concept that there was no non-human death before the fall.

Eden could not have been a place of life unless natural non-human death was also part of it.