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Illusions of Phylogeny

SLP

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Really, then why don't you point out what is false?

Found this on another forum:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

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Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "



Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."





What are the methods used to assess creationism's claims? Are they testable? have they been tested on knowns?

Nested hierarchies are predictions of evolution which have been confirmed via tested methodologies.

All you are offering is inflammatory assertions coupled with unwarranted condescension produced by the Dunning-Kruger effect, as best I can tell.
 
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SLP

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Once again, you focus on exceptions and ignore the preponderence of the evidence.

Standard.

There is a YEC on another forum that I read claiming that because he came across one example of a bottlenecked species exhibiting 'surprising' amounts of diversity that the whole concept of bottlenecks is false, despite being given several examples of measured bottleneck-related decreases in diversity.

One cannot argue with these pseudo-know-it-alls, but one can demonstrate to fence sitters how polywrong their YEC pals are.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Standard.

There is a YEC on another forum that I read claiming that because he came across one example of a bottlenecked species exhibiting 'surprising' amounts of diversity that the whole concept of bottlenecks is false, despite being given several examples of measured bottleneck-related decreases in diversity.

One cannot argue with these pseudo-know-it-alls, but one can demonstrate to fence sitters how polywrong their YEC pals are.

You can present them with evidence, but you can't make them believe it.
 
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SLP

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Yep, it's hard to avoid studying something you've defined as 'change over time'.

Maybe if your theory wasn't built on total equivocation you wouldn't be fooling yourselves into thinking every time a mutation occurs that its evidence that a human and a snail share a common ancestor.

Say, that is super clever. But do you really think that strawman nonsense will convince anyone that you are out of your league?
 
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SLP

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Not sure what you're getting at here. I already know phylogenetic models use shared traits. Why do you think I started this thread? I'm simply pointing out how the illusion is sold to the public. They look at these nested hierarchies and assume it describes Common Descent when it's just abstract nested groupings.

Then I submit that you do not understand phylogenetics.
 
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SLP

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No, it doesn't change my perception. If we were to put them on the same scale then we would have to make the pages immensely large in order to see the smaller features. It makes sense to show them in relative terms. Why do you find this to be such a problem?

Also, overall size can be variable in any lineage, and even variable within a single population. Why do you think it is important?


Isn't it amazing how shallow creationists can be? On another forum, I relayed a circle plot of rRNA phylogeny, and a creationist insisted that there was some hidden reason that it was circular, and suggested it was some sort of 'liberal' ploy to advance environmentalism (circle of life and all that).

Cannot reason with most of these folks.
 
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SLP

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You keep using that word "phylogeny". I do not think it means what you think it means.

intelligencedidntmeanintelligencebeforepowerpivot1.png

And a master projector, too.

Shocking!
 
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SLP

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If we found an animal with "primate-ness" but lacking mammalian traits (hair and mammary glands), it would be classified as part of a separate lineage that diverged before the line to mammals, convergently evolving a "primate-like" appearance.

Not unlike what has been done with monotremes. Since they are "mammals" but their reproductive system characters violate a placental or marsupial nested hierarchy, their line can be pushed back into mystical deep-time, where they diverged off of the placenta/marsupial line.

Evolution can accommodate nearly anything with storytelling.
Yeah - I especially like this one story.

It goes like this -

One day, this superbeing got bored and willed the universe into existence - get this - in 6 days! And totally crazy - that this happened 6000 years ago!

Wait, it gets better - there are conflicting stories about how it all happened but the people that believe this claim that they are BOTH TRUIE! CRAZY, right?

There is more - this superbeing made a man from dust - DUST! - and then made all the animals, and let this dust-man choose a mate from among them!

And people actually BELIEVE it!

So - what were you saying about evolution being false and impossible and all that nonsense?
 
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SLP

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A rat is a mammal, I don't see you claiming we evolved from it. A whale is a mammal, I don't see you claiming primates or man evolved from whales. The tree takes out all the diversity that exists. So they are all mammals, being classified as mammals does not mean any evolved from any others.

So...

Do you guys take classes on setting up strawmen, or does it come naturally?

Yet whales don't have hair, yet they are mammals.

Actually, they do.

So already we have a discrepancy within the classification system.

No, just in your depth of understanding it.
 
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PsychoSarah

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So...

Do you guys take classes on setting up strawmen, or does it come naturally?



Actually, they do.



No, just in your depth of understanding it.

I am surprised he didn't mention the platypus, probably the weirdest mammal out there.
 
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SLP

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See, when the heat gets turned up on the evolutionists, they want to get the subject off of Evolution as fast as possible. They want to distract with red herrings about Creationism and lead the audience down all sorts of rabbit holes.

And isn't it odd that creationists almost never want to discuss the evidence FOR creationism.

Attacking their strawmen is much more productive than having to try to defend a collection of middle eastern fairy tales.
 
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SLP

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A particular molecular data set can easily topple the supposed 'nest'.

Topple it in what way?

And is frequently at odds with morphology.

How frequently, and how big is the discrepancy?
We also know that culled genetic accidents can't build animals. Obviously.

You keep writing that as if your mantra was anything more than a mantra.

It gets old. maybe I'll try -

We also know that tribal deities cannot use dust to build animals. Obviously.
 
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SLP

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Proving Evolution wrong is like proving Capitalism wrong. Evolution is a philosophy of nature. Evolutionary biologists are working within a non-falsifiable metaphysical framework. That's why it seems like everything is more and more evidence for evolution. The theory is so flexible and malleable that it can accommodate nearly anything.

Evolutionists, even the most brilliant ones, are notorious for being unable to recognize their own philosophical and religious commitments. And this problem carries over to the presentation of Evolution to the public.

“For those scientists who take it seriously, Darwinian evolution has functioned more as a philosophical belief system than as a testable scientific hypothesis. This quasi-religious function of the theory is, I think, what lies behind many of the extreme statements that you have doubtless encountered from some scientists opposing any critical analysis of neo-Darwinism in the classroom. It is also why many scientists make public statements about the theory that they would not defend privately to other scientists like me.”

- James Shapiro - Geneticist

The most mainstream theory of Evolution (neo-Darwinism/the modern synthesis) is practically laughed at by some first rank evolutionary biologists.

Yet from the public's perspective, Neo-Darwinism is an ironclad scientific fact, fact, FACT with "mountains and mountains" of evidence.

Very awkward.


Wow - I must have never received the Official Notification that Shapiro Speaks For ALL and that his personal opinions (which seem to be based more on the fact that most scientists do not accept his bizarre extrapolations) are to be Written in Stone.
 
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SLP

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You do realize the molecular clock has basically been debunked? The current literature is replete with admissions of its failures as any kind of reliable measurement device for determining degrees of evolutionary divergence.

The molecular clock is another failed prediction of the theory.

So, you don't actually know what the whole 'molecular CLOCK' thing was even about, do you?

You know what else the literature is replete with?

NOTHING concluding that Yahweh must have done it.
 
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SLP

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SLP

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That abstract has a very biased undertone in the writing. Doesn't sound like a scientific paper at all. The journal is open access, but claims to be peer reviewed. I doubt they have a particularly good reputation, if this is the level of stuff they are publishing.

My alarms bells went off when I saw this:

In recent years, we fortuitously rediscovered the equidistance result, which remains unknown to nearly all researchers. Incorporating the proven virtues of existing evolutionary theories and introducing the novel concept of maximum genetic diversity, we proposed a more complete hypothesis of evolutionary genetics and reinterpreted the equidistance result and other major evolutionary phenomena. The hypothesis may rewrite molecular phylogeny and population genetics and solve major biomedical problems that challenge the existing framework of evolutionary biology.


I mean, holy cow - this went off the "Crank" charts!

And YECs gobble it up.

Amazing.
 
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46AND2

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My alarms bells went off when I saw this:




I mean, holy cow - this went off the "Crank" charts!

And YECs gobble it up.

Amazing.

Yeah, those were some of the redflags for me, too. And that was just in the abstract. And of course it just looks to creationists like we are handwaving articles away that we don't like...really not our fault that they are incabable of recognizing poor scientific writing when they see it.

It's a shame some of that stuff manages to get a "peer reviewed" tag on it. Unfortunately, its only going to get worse until they crack down on some of these open access journals.
 
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PhantomGaze

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I am surprised he didn't mention the platypus, probably the weirdest mammal out there.

I mentioned the platypus. Someone argued it was a transitional form between mammals and reptiles. Which of course is true imo, but they completely ignored it's avian characteristics as an area of interest.
 
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