Illegal Immigration

[Zippythepinhead]

This is a hot topic in the news with folks on both sides of the issue and everywhere inbetween. The question is this: Do we need to tighten the United State's Border With Mexico for our national security?

 

[James T]

Maybe they are trying to retake California.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

Maybe they are trying to retake California.

Very well could be! I know some have stated they want to take back the Southwest U.S. Small minority, but nontheless the movement is out there.

 

[James T]

It'd be something of a suicide trick for them to try, although maybe with all those soldiers over in Iraq now would be the time.

 

[DailyBlessings]

The claim that illegal immigrants from Mexico are somehow causing terrorism is just another example of using a policy of fear to push unrelated agendas. The people now making this claim are the same ones who wanted to stop immigration all along- they are just exploiting a new fear. If we really wanted to promote our own security, there would be better and less expensive ways of doing so than somehow closing off our border to Mexico, which is probably an impossible task at any rate.

And hey, what about the Canadian border? If we truly aren't discriminating against Mexicans here, isn't that border just as much of a liability? Fencing across the Rockies could get tricky...

 

[Zippythepinhead]

The claim that illegal immigrants from Mexico are somehow causing terrorism is just another example of using a policy of fear to push unrelated agendas. The people now making this claim are the same ones who wanted to stop immigration all along- they are just exploiting a new fear. If we really wanted to promote our own security, there would be better and less expensive ways of doing so than somehow closing off our border to Mexico, which is probably an impossible task at any rate.

And hey, what about the Canadian border? If we truly aren't discriminating against Mexicans here, isn't that border just as much of a liability? Fencing across the Rockies could get tricky...

You could have a point with Canada

 

[Lyric's Dad]

All land belongs to God and He has given it to His creation. They have as much right to this country as anyone else. Segregation is wrong.

 

[Inconel]

All land belongs to God and He has given it to His creation. They have as much right to this country as anyone else. Segregation is wrong.

Yikes.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

Yikes.

Agreed. Let's just give the whole Southwest back to Mexico and admit our ancestors were wrong for conquering it and annexing it.

 

[DailyBlessings]

Agreed. Let's just give the whole Southwest back to Mexico and admit our ancestors were wrong for conquering it and annexing it.

Ah, but Mexico shouldn't really have it either... And you can't give it to anyone currently living there without contradicting someone or another's beliefs, since many groups claim to have originated in much the same area.

 

[Cherub8]

I believe we need to stop immigration until we get the problem under control. The first step is building a 100-foot-high wall along the border of Mexico, with electric fences, attack dogs and guards on the other side.

After that is done, I say a 50,000 per year limit from Mexico.

 

[Inconel]

Maybe they are trying to retake California.

They can have it.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

I believe we need to stop immigration until we get the problem under control. The first step is building a 100-foot-high wall along the border of Mexico, with electric fences, attack dogs and guards on the other side.

After that is done, I say a 50,000 per year limit from Mexico.

I think you may have a valid point.

 

[Ninja Turtles]

I sy let everyone in because I don't care, but that's also because I don't have a nationalistic identity, nor do I wish t have one.

As for the suggestion about buidling a wall, yeah watch the country hit an economic drought with that bill and an already record deficit.

 

[scraparcs]

Agreed. Let's just give the whole Southwest back to Mexico and admit our ancestors were wrong for conquering it and annexing it.

Finally, I can speak Spanish all the time!

But seriously, I doubt the Mexican border is much of a threat to our national security. Maybe a threat to leaving trash about, or trespassing, or even occasional petty theft (gotta survive somehow), but national security? Nah.

As for the wall, y'all know there's already one that's about 10 feet high with security patrols and barbed wire. Let's not mar the beautiful land out there any more. It's such a depressing sight to go from Bisbee, AZ to Naco and see the beautiful mountains as you go along, and in the middle of them, a huge black fence.

 

[trunks2k]

Illegal immigration is an interesting subject and it is far from the black and white issue people try to make it out to be.

Personally I think that the claims by some that illegal immigrants took someone's job is, for the most part, BS. Illegal immigrants do jobs that most americans wouldn't want to do, and do it for wages that most americans would never accept. You can argue that if it wasn't for illegal immigrants, americans would be doing these menial jobs because they would offer at least minimum wage. But in areas in which illegal immigrants are used, they tend to be used in large numbers such as in agriculture. Now, here lies the rub. If you get rid of the illegal immigrants, that means areas such as agriculture will have to spend much more money on labor, and thus drive up the price of food. Would the average american be willing to pay an extra dollar per pound of oranges produced in the US? This could be damaging to the economy and cause the loss of jobs that legal workers would have gotten.

To further muddy the waters, let's say that no, americans wouldn't be willing to pay the extra cost caused by eliminating illegal immigrants and that eliminating illegals would be very damaging to the economy - so immigration continues as is. There now lies a heavy moral issue. We now have a large population of poor workers that are being paid an illegal wage. It's not very moral to ignore that these people are being used just so that we can save some money on food. It seems to be one thing if we buy products produced by poor extremely underpaid workers in foreign coutnries and getting products produced by poor, underpaid workers in our own country.

Let's continue muddying the water some more. Let's say that we decide that due to the moral issue of having these workers getting paid too little and not getting the normal protections that the average american enojoys, that we would be willing to pay the extra costs of getting rid of illegal immigration. So we crack down on illegal immigration. This will in most cases defeat the reasoning behind this crack down because we've now deported many illegals back to their countries where they will live in worse conditions.

There's the option of making illegals legal. But that brings up the problem of a.) it not being fair to those that went through the system legally, b.) being a security risk (though I think it's a bit overblown), c.) increase of costs.

Other options are just as undesireable for moral, practical, and pragmatic reasons.

 

[Jetgirl]

This is a hot topic in the news with folks on both sides of the issue and everywhere inbetween. The question is this: Do we need to tighten the United State's Border With Mexico for our national security?

Here's the opinion of someone who lives in Southern California, and is watching her state steadily become North Mexico:

I think we should take a long hard look at the way Mexico controls it's own borders, ie. the southern border is patrolled by armed military and those caught crossing illegaly are immediately deported or put in "detainment camps" (which are more or less a human rights nightmare).... on the other hand, the Mexican govermenment seems to be encouraging their own people to defy our borders to the North.

What's this mean? I'm not sure, but it ticks me off.

I am very supportive of legal immigrants, in fact, I'm marrying one next year, but I can't stand seeing millions of law-breakers being rewarded for their transgressions by free medical care, free housing, and a legislative system that wants to bend over backwards to appease them.

Illegal immigrants are criminals, regardless of what country they come from. End of story.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

Here's the opinion of someone who lives in Southern California, and is watching her state steadily become North Mexico:

I think we should take a long hard look at the way Mexico controls it's own borders, ie. the southern border is patrolled by armed military and those caught crossing illegaly are immediately deported or put in "detainment camps" (which are more or less a human rights nightmare).... on the other hand, the Mexican govermenment seems to be encouraging their own people to defy our borders to the North.

What's this mean? I'm not sure, but it ticks me off.

I am very supportive of legal immigrants, in fact, I'm marrying one next year, but I can't stand seeing millions of law-breakers being rewarded for their transgressions by free medical care, free housing, and a legislative system that wants to bend over backwards to appease them.

Illegal immigrants are criminals, regardless of what country they come from. End of story.

In addition they also come to the United States, get on social services, educational services, and other governmental services. What does this do to our own native born people? Costs them benefits and bankrupts the taxpayer. And what does Vicente Fox get out of this. A $15 billion dollar tax funded check heading south of the border. That is disturbing to me.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

It'd be something of a suicide trick for them to try, although maybe with all those soldiers over in Iraq now would be the time.

Someone is forgetting a little thing called the 2nd Amendment.
Although you are probably speaking in jest, a move on our homeland isn't dependant on the government's ability to protect.

 

[HouseApe]

Illegal immigration is an interesting subject and it is far from the black and white issue people try to make it out to be.

Personally I think that the claims by some that illegal immigrants took someone's job is, for the most part, BS. Illegal immigrants do jobs that most americans wouldn't want to do, and do it for wages that most americans would never accept. You can argue that if it wasn't for illegal immigrants, americans would be doing these menial jobs because they would offer at least minimum wage. But in areas in which illegal immigrants are used, they tend to be used in large numbers such as in agriculture. Now, here lies the rub. If you get rid of the illegal immigrants, that means areas such as agriculture will have to spend much more money on labor, and thus drive up the price of food. Would the average american be willing to pay an extra dollar per pound of oranges produced in the US? This could be damaging to the economy and cause the loss of jobs that legal workers would have gotten.

So, what does a corporation do when it can't find cheap labor? It employs technology to improve efficiency. And why doesn't that technology exist? Because there is no value in developing it when you have plenty of cheap labor.

To further muddy the waters, let's say that no, americans wouldn't be willing to pay the extra cost caused by eliminating illegal immigrants and that eliminating illegals would be very damaging to the economy - so immigration continues as is. There now lies a heavy moral issue. We now have a large population of poor workers that are being paid an illegal wage. It's not very moral to ignore that these people are being used just so that we can save some money on food. It seems to be one thing if we buy products produced by poor extremely underpaid workers in foreign coutnries and getting products produced by poor, underpaid workers in our own country.

Which is why free trade shouldn't be based upon labor costs. It should be based upon resources. Otherwise, over the long term, everybody becomes cheap labor. Intellectual capital is only good for a short period of time as it is easily replaceable with technology and education.

Let's continue muddying the water some more. Let's say that we decide that due to the moral issue of having these workers getting paid too little and not getting the normal protections that the average american enojoys, that we would be willing to pay the extra costs of getting rid of illegal immigration. So we crack down on illegal immigration. This will in most cases defeat the reasoning behind this crack down because we've now deported many illegals back to their countries where they will live in worse conditions.

But why are the conditions so atrocious in their own countries? Because of socio-political cultures that reward corruption and high birth rates. I say force the people in those countries to deal with their own problems head on. If they don't, they will always be our problem. And that is not fair to us.

There's the option of making illegals legal. But that brings up the problem of a.) it not being fair to those that went through the system legally, b.) being a security risk (though I think it's a bit overblown), c.) increase of costs.

And also does nothing about illegal immigration. You can make current illegal s legal, and that will only increase the motivation for illegals to come here. That is actually the worst possible solution.

Other options are just as undesireable for moral, practical, and pragmatic reasons.

Put up a fence. Put the army on the border. Shoot 'em if you have to. This is our country. This is our culture. We have fully realized the Lord's command to be fruitful and multiply. We get to decide what to do with our country. Let them decide what to do with theirs. I have been to Mexico and Honduras. They are lousey places to live. It doesn't have to be that way, but the people who live there can change that.