Illegal Immigrants?

[The Nihilist]

Are illegal immigrants criminals? I think this is a foggy area, but I want to hear what y'all have to say first

I promise, this is a philosophical discussion. I ask this question with Arendt's ideas about statelessness in mind

 

[free_esprit]

No i dont think theyre criminals.
I think the "philosophy-ness" of these topic is in the debate of wether what the State tells you is wrong, actually is or not.
The most used argument against illegal imigration, is that they are breaking the law. which implies that they are defining their conceptions of "right" and "wrong" by what the government tells them.
That is having a very sheep-like mentality, as well as simple-mindness. Thats what made the germans support the nazis, without further questioning.
The State does not get to decide what is moral, in my opinion, nor the majority does. Once, interacial coupling was considered to be very immoral (still is in some places). Genocide and racism were once justified and accepted.
Most moral rules are relative, to time and place.

 

[Madcoil]

Wow. Godwins law in effect after the very first reply...

An illegal immigrant, being ILLEGAL, is by definition a criminal, as he is breaking the law. Is someone who drives illegally a criminal? Yes! If you break a law, then you are a criminal. This has nothing to do with morality OR ethics. It's law. Don't fudge it.

 

[Feminition]

The point is that they should not be illegal at all, and that is at the fault of the laziness of our politicians, and their desperate wish to be 'savvy' to the racist, paranoid right. This problem with illegal immigrants started because people didn't have a particularly user-friendly way to make sure all of them are documented, and is currently going on because people now have fear of the perfectly human people who merely want to contribute to a country which, in their opinion, in better than their own.

The act of checking them, if possible, and then giving them a visa isn't hard at all, but it seems like quite a few people are pressuring them not to. The only side I really pity in this situation are the quote, unquote- 'Illegal' immigrants. They contribute to our economy where it is slow, and if all of them were gone from the country, certainly we'd be in a bigger recession than we are now.

 

[Washington]

Illegal immigration is immigration across national borders in a way that violates the immigration laws of a country. Violate a law and you have committed a crime. Commit a crime and you're a criminal. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.




A note to Feminition: using such a small font and light color discourages people from reading you. I am certanly not about to squint to see what you've said.

 

[Madcoil]

The point is that they should not be illegal at all, and that is at the fault of the laziness of our politicians, and their desperate wish to be 'savvy' to the racist, paranoid right.

Laws aren't necessarily passed to make you feel good about yourself.
Whether there should be restrictions on immigration or not is a policy, which is decided by policy makers. If you disagree with the policy makers, then that's too bad.
The politicians haven't changed the laws because they serve a purpose, not because they're lazy. And lastly, all democrats are racist nazis.

This problem with illegal immigrants started because people didn't have a particularly user-friendly way to make sure all of them are documented, and is currently going on because people now have fear of the perfectly human people who merely want to contribute to a country which, in their opinion, in better than their own.

Illegal immigration became a problem when immigrants became desperate enough for work that they broke the immigration laws. They don't necessarily want to live or contribute to this country, they may not necessarily think it's better, but that doesn't mean they want to starve.

The act of checking them, if possible, and then giving them a visa isn't hard at all, but it seems like quite a few people are pressuring them not to. The only side I really pity in this situation are the quote, unquote- 'Illegal' immigrants. They contribute to our economy where it is slow, and if all of them were gone from the country, certainly we'd be in a bigger recession than we are now.

In this issue there are 2 sides; the immigration laws, and the illegal immigrants. Neither side needs your pity. The law either needs a revision, or it needs to be obeyed, the illegal immigrants need jobs jobs jobs. (ps. if you're going to use the ' signs, you don't really need to add 'quote, unquote' )
As a whole, illegal immigration helps the economy, but in a purely capitalist society it harms the native workers.

 

[Feminition]

Laws aren't necessarily passed to make you feel good about yourself.
Whether there should be restrictions on immigration or not is a policy, which is decided by policy makers. If you disagree with the policy makers, then that's too bad.
The politicians haven't changed the laws because they serve a purpose, not because they're lazy. And lastly, all democrats are racist nazis.

Oh, sweetie, I don't think you realize that what people do doesn't make it right, no matter what their position is high up on our chain of law. And I'll gas your bottom, if you know what I mean, sweetie. Good job at ad-hominem. ;D

Illegal immigration became a problem when immigrants became desperate enough for work that they broke the immigration laws. They don't necessarily want to live or contribute to this country, they may not necessarily think it's better, but that doesn't mean they want to starve.

So you'll let them rot in a country which does not allow them to have proper pay and terrible living conditions, and instead, have to live in a queue that's moving at a snail's pace for no reason. Very fantastic.

In this issue there are 2 sides; the immigration laws, and the illegal immigrants. Neither side needs your pity. The law either needs a revision, or it needs to be obeyed, the illegal immigrants need jobs jobs jobs. (ps. if you're going to use the ' signs, you don't really need to add 'quote, unquote' )
As a whole, illegal immigration helps the economy, but in a purely capitalist society it harms the native workers.

I think the law needs a revision, simple as that. Are you saying they should not have jobs? How do they live? How will they have a happy life like you? That's unfair. (ps. ad-hominem good job)

As a whole, illegal immigration shouldn't be possible. I was born in Russia and moved at a very young age here, and it befitted me quite a bit. To think that people simply aren't being allowed into the country because of overpopulation makes me cry at night- and it can be easily fixed, too. Everyone deserves a good life.

 

[The Nihilist]

Wow. Godwins law in effect after the very first reply...

An illegal immigrant, being ILLEGAL, is by definition a criminal, as he is breaking the law. Is someone who drives illegally a criminal? Yes! If you break a law, then you are a criminal. This has nothing to do with morality OR ethics. It's law. Don't fudge it.

I kind of think you're wrong. Here's why.
The funny thing is that to make laws, a government has to have authority over those people targeted by the law. America can't tell Mexican citizens what to do, for example. America can only tell Americans and visitors to the United States what to do. This is the funny thing about immigration laws: they don't apply to anyone until they've been broken. The crime of the illegal immigrant is that he is under American authority. This is peculiar.
Should illegal immigrants be imprisoned? I don't think so, and I don't think most people think so. The best course of action seems to be to just send them home. This is hardly the way we treat criminals here in America.
I don't have a strong opinion on the immigration debate, honestly. What does concern me is the sort of amorphous legal status of an illegal immigrant, and what this suggests about rule of law in general.

 

[Madcoil]

Oh, sweetie, I don't think you realize that what people do doesn't make it right, no matter what their position is high up on our chain of law. And I'll gas your bottom, if you know what I mean, sweetie. Good job at ad-hominem. ;D

1. Nonsense, poochie, the end doesn't justify the means. And the means don't justify the end, poochie.
2. Ad-hominem? You mean like asserting that the 'right' is paranoid and racist?

So you'll let them rot in a country which does not allow them to have proper pay and terrible living conditions, and instead, have to live in a queue that's moving at a snail's pace for no reason. Very fantastic.

1. What's the fancy latin word for applying opinions to your opponent that he doesn't have? Because you're doing it.

I think the law needs a revision, simple as that. Are you saying they should not have jobs? How do they live? How will they have a happy life like you? That's unfair. (ps. ad-hominem good job)

1. Then talk to your lawmakers.
2. No.
3. I expect they live like all other people in their respective countries.
4. Fallacy; my life is not necessarily happy.
5. Fallacy of expecting that reality cares.
(6. is this a reference to my quote unquote thing? Jeez.)

As a whole, illegal immigration shouldn't be possible. I was born in Russia and moved at a very young age here, and it befitted me quite a bit. To think that people simply aren't being allowed into the country because of overpopulation makes me cry at night- and it can be easily fixed, too. Everyone deserves a good life.[/COLOR]
[/SIZE]

1. Because?
2. Did you move there legally?
3. Yeah, by getting a grip on yourself. Oh wait, you meant the letting people into the country thing. Yeah, that can be fixed as well.
4. More feelgood appeal-to-emotion hackery...

 

[Madcoil]

I kind of think you're wrong. Here's why.
The funny thing is that to make laws, a government has to have authority over those people targeted by the law. America can't tell Mexican citizens what to do, for example. America can only tell Americans and visitors to the United States what to do. This is the funny thing about immigration laws: they don't apply to anyone until they've been broken. The crime of the illegal immigrant is that he is under American authority. This is peculiar.
Should illegal immigrants be imprisoned? I don't think so, and I don't think most people think so. The best course of action seems to be to just send them home. This is hardly the way we treat criminals here in America.
I don't have a strong opinion on the immigration debate, honestly. What does concern me is the sort of amorphous legal status of an illegal immigrant, and what this suggests about rule of law in general.

This is an interesting premise, and I am inclined to agree with it if we define a criminal as someone who is guilty of a punishable offence.

As you said, american law applies to both citizens AND visitors. And illegal immigrant is someone I would classify as a visitor.
An immigrant becomes an illegal immigrant if:
1. He enters the country without applying for permission to do so. (Breaching and entering, trespassing etc.)
2. Fails to apply for a renewal of his visa.
3. Is denied renewal of his visa.
(Of course, in count 2 and 3 he won't be an illegal immigrant until he stays beyond the allowed limit.)

However, if the 'punishment' for this is to be expelled until such a time as he/she can renew or obtain their visa, it doesn't count as exile, and it's not extradition, since they're not going to be charged when they return to their native country. Expulsion?

According to wikipedia; 'Entering the United States illegally is a criminal and civil offense.'
But this would only count for one out of the three types of illegal immigration I mentioned.
From what I understood of the article, visa overstay would be a civil offence. (Failure to leave within the designated time frame.)

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste,

by definition "illegal" immigrants are criminals. they are violating the law of the land or they'd not be called "illegal".

immigrants are, of course, not illegal. there seems to be a purposeful obfuscation in this area which seems quite unusual to me.

metta,

~v

 

[billwald]

Far as I know, being undocumented is a misdemeanor, not a crime. Like speeding or littering.

 

[quatona]

Are illegal immigrants criminals?

Since "illegal" and "criminal" are pretty much synonyms this appears to be a tautology.

 

[quatona]

Far as I know, being undocumented is a misdemeanor, not a crime. Like speeding or littering.

Good point. So whether illegal immigrants are criminals depends on the legislation of the country. Where it´s a crime they are criminals, where it´s not a crime they aren´t.

 

[plmarquette]

actually we all are illegal aliens here....
the american red man did not invite us, nor give us permission to build homes and move in .....​

 

[mpok1519]

Well, the native Americans thought we were criminals when we began to invade their lands.

Yet, the criminals won, stripped them of their lands, and now, make the new laws.

If the lawmaker is a criminal, then the laws become crimes.

One can be a lawmaker, and a lawbreaker in the same right.

 

[billwald]

In the USA a criminal is one who has been CONVICTED of a crime.

I believe illegal entry is a misdemeanor, like j walking, not a felony

 

[Matthew_18:14]

In the USA a criminal is one who has been CONVICTED of a crime.

I believe illegal entry is a misdemeanor, like j walking, not a felony

Bill,

It is still a crime even if it is not a felony.

"Crimes are categorized by Congress as felonies and misdemeanors, although there are many different types of crimes that fall under each class." -Quote from lawinfo.com.

Therefore being in the U.S. illegally is a criminal act. Now just because I say this does not mean that I think we can arrest all of the illegal immigrants in this country and ship them back to their country of origin. The only way to fix the problem we are in is to give amnesty to those who are here illegally and then proceed to put up a wall, or patrol the border better, so that we can keep illegal immigrants out of this country.

Our other option would be to combine America and Mexico into a new country called Americo, or Mexica, whatever you prefer (I would go with Americo because we could keep the USA abbreviation). I don't think that Mexico would go for this option.

Aaron

 

[mpok1519]

put up a wall eh?

I suppose no one remembers the cold war anymore....

"Tear down this wall," was a good Reagan line.

So no, building a wall would simply be spitting in the face of decisions we already are against. Segregation is a bad thing.

oh, but, how're you gonna tell the govt to build a wall that keeps all that cheap labor out? Doesnt the govt get lots of pork-barrel money from corporations dependent upon that cheap and unskilled labor?

the govt enjoys the fact there are millions of illegals here. That means millions of dollars they can line their gilded pockets with!

so, no, I don't think theyre ever going to solve the illegal immigrant 'problem'. to them, its more like a gold mine than a problem.

lol

 

[RyanLeeParis]

Illegal, by it's definition, is crime. Therefore, illegal aliens are criminals. I live in a city in California full of illegals; it's sick. And they all look at you like they want to kill you. It's the U.S. Army and National Guards job to arrest/shoot them. It's a major failure by the U.S. Government that they are losing California by doing nothing.