"I'll Fly Away"

[jimmyjimmy]

The problem with that song, and so many others, is that it is focused on ME. It is nothing but sentimentality and wishful thinking. There is no worship in it and it in no way points us to our true hope Christ Jesus the Lord.

"Amazing Grace" is an example of a song that speaks of me but it does so in such a way that the focus is on the grace of God in Christ not on me. It isn't full of sentimentality or wishful thinking. It points us to Him who has saved me from my wretchedness.

Good point. Some contemporary "worship" songs have a similar focus: "me, me, me, me, me. me"

 

[drjean]

I like the song. It does tend to lift peoples spirits. But, it IS heavily flawed doctrinally. The idea of leaving Earth and going to live on some "celestial shore" is NOT Scriptural. Man was created to live on Earth. We're not going away. God promises to bring heaven TO Earth.

But only for 1000 years, right? Because Jesus went away to build us mansions... In the tradition (which God Himself devised) of the Jewish wedding (and the church is Jesus' bride)... the bridegroom leaves the betrothed woman and returns to his father's home to either add onto the physical house, or build one of his own nearby. The bridegroom works and works on the new home...and cannot go "get" his bride to bring her home until the FATHER says the home is finished and good enough. Once the father says the home is ready, he tells the son to bring his bride...

There is much written about heaven in Scripture. The redeemed will not spend eternity on earth.

 

[JM]

Dispensationalism and Gnosticism go hand in hand.

 

[gord44]

Dispensationalism and Gnosticism go hand in hand.

I don't even think the two are related. Like comparing Toronto to a goldfish.

Then again I don't know much about Dispensationalism.

 

[drjean]

Dispensationalism and Gnosticism go hand in hand.

In what ways? Please explain your ideology on this.

Here's a link to a good article on the differences and similarities of Reformed, Covenant, and Dispensational theologies. They are based in Bible whereas Gnosticism was permeated with pagan Greek mythology.

 

[JM]

I don't even think the two are related. Like comparing Toronto to a goldfish.

Then again I don't know much about Dispensationalism.

It may be difficult to nail down exactly what Dispensationalism is. It’s not confessional, it’s not historical, and changes with every generation. At the root, Dispensationalism and Gnosticism are similar in terms of philosophy. Both groups tend to be anti-intellectual. To prove this point just visit the Eschatology or Fundamentalist forum. Fundamental “ism” and Dispensationalism are two sides of the same coin.

Fundamentalism is a reaction to liberalism promoted in the 1800's. It is heavily influenced by the Plymouth Brethren aka Gospel Hall assemblies who first promoted the theology of Dispensationalism and PreTrib Rapturism. The attitude of the exclusive Brethren lead by Darby was extreme separatism, if you disagreed with Darby, you were cut off from the assemblies. Due to the supposed literalism of Dispensationalism and PreTrib Rapturism, anyone who disagrees is cut off, just like Darby would have done. (see Darby vs. William Kelly)

Fundamentalism also teaches that certain things, created or otherwise, are inherently evil. That means alcohol, tobacco, pleasures of the flesh, etc. are inherently evil. This is a form of Gnosticism. All things can be abused or used for sinful purposes but they are not inherently evil...there is no battle between God and the devil or good against evil...that is Gnosticism. The Bible teaches that God is sovereign. God is in control of all things. We may use all things lawfully and to the glory of God. For example Fundamentalism teaches that allegory is inherently faulty, without considering the text, just because it is the tool of liberalism. This attitude pits the 'good' Dispensational Rapture believing Christian against the 'bad' allegory using non-Rapture believing Christian. Dispensationalism is considered inherently good and anything else is consider inherently evil.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[gord44]

Thanks for the explanation sir!

 

[JM]

Thanks for the explanation sir!

No problem "ol bean."

 

[StephanieSomer]

But only for 1000 years, right? Because Jesus went away to build us mansions... In the tradition (which God Himself devised) of the Jewish wedding (and the church is Jesus' bride)... the bridegroom leaves the betrothed woman and returns to his father's home to either add onto the physical house, or build one of his own nearby. The bridegroom works and works on the new home...and cannot go "get" his bride to bring her home until the FATHER says the home is finished and good enough. Once the father says the home is ready, he tells the son to bring his bride...

There is much written about heaven in Scripture. The redeemed will not spend eternity on earth.

We surely will. There's no need to "go to heaven". Revelation is pretty clear that heaven is coming to Earth. Permanently. Man was not created to live in heaven. Genesis is clear about that. Man was created to "till the garden".

And the notion of "mansions" is a silly one, based on a bad translation. He went to prepare a "place".

 

[drjean]

Unfortunately the current definition of "fundamentalism" is no longer what it used to be, and is, indeed more New Age now than ever.

Regarding "dispensationalism" I believe it's term, as well, is widely misunderstood.

Among dispensationalists, confusion has arisen regarding the term.At the end of the 20th century and start of the 21st, the label is used by various groups with both subtle and not so subtle differences in meaning. Our explanation will hopefully clarify these differences.​

The Church/Body began on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, but the doctrinal details of this spiritual event were a complete mystery until revealed to Paul by the Risen Christ (Gal.1:12) and then expounded by this Apostle to others. Contrary to a narrowly-held, dispensational error, the Apostle Paul was not the first member of the Body of Christ. For several decades following Pentecost, the other Jewish Apostles, including Peter, were unclear regarding much of this new truth and would subsequently learn it 'secondhand' from Paul (2 Peter 3:15,16).​

http://www.withchrist.org/pauldisp.htm


And if I may continue, at the allowance of the OP, regarding Covenant Theology, it now also means "replacement" theology which is far different from the original definition.

IMO this changing of definitions, the mis-instruction of theologies, is a work of the devil. He has believers arguing what is different about their beliefs rather than our focussing upon what are the fundamentals that we all believe regarding Jesus.

Trust me, I'm old enough and have been engaged enough to have seen these changes. It would be best if we all quit using the old titles (even the world's titles for things like "pro choice" or "pro life") because the devil uses it to divide us.


Whatever your opinion of the song "I'll Fly Away" ... whether you read in Aramaic or Latin or English...I WILL fly away and be at rest with the LORD some day.
Shalom.

 

[JM]

Fly away? Really?

As a Reformed-Particular-Confessional Baptist...I wait for final consummation of all things where Christ redeems create and eradicates sin.

King Jesus Maranatha!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

We surely will. There's no need to "go to heaven". Revelation is pretty clear that heaven is coming to Earth. Permanently. Man was not created to live in heaven. Genesis is clear about that. Man was created to "till the garden".

And the notion of "mansions" is a silly one, based on a bad translation. He went to prepare a "place".

Yup.

 

[drjean]

My definition of "flying"

English Standard Version 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Heaven isn't on earth, as He wouldn't have to take us there:

John 14:2-4New International Version (NIV)

2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”


The throne of God is above, in Heaven, not here on earth.:

Revelation 22:1-5 - 1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.


the Nicene Creed reads: "He [Jesus] suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end."

The Apostle's Creed is almost identical, only changing the final imagery to "from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead."

The Westminster Confession :


is even more precise, declaring that "the bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God."
​

God is in heaven above.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 says for everything there is a season, and time for every matter under heaven.


The Jews spoke of three heavens. The first heaven consisted of the the earth atmosphere where the clouds and birds were. The second heaven was where the sun, stars, and moon was. The third heaven was the dwelling place of God. When Paul said he was caught up to the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2), he was referring to the very dwelling place of God.
https://carm.org/what-does-it-mean-when-bible-refers-third-heaven

and finally, here, I post---why does God need a new heaven if we are dwelling with Him (as He promised), here on earth? :

English Standard Version Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

Well, certainly this is one area we will fellowship together with... even though we are not in unity about it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Well, certainly this is one area we will fellowship together with... even though we are not in unity about it.

As long as you come back to earth.

 

[drjean]

As long as you come back to earth.

LOL oh of course, for 1000 years But He isn't leaving me here on earth with those who may not have resurrected bodies, coming out of the tribulation etc. (I'm thinking those are the ones who the devil gets to tempt once he is released for a time??? and those who are born during the tribulation...)