II Thess. 2:1-3

[Maon]

II Thess. 2

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition” (II Thess. 2:1-3).

Various interpretations have been given. Two basic methods are used: 1) interpret according the context of Scripture, and 2) interpret according to predetermined classification. I choose the first. It is necessary to study the natural flow and context of Scripture—and to understand that Paul never disagreed with the Thessalonians’ expectation to see the day of the Lord. Rather, Paul corrected a false teaching that the day was at hand. And he did so with the test of doctrine as follows:

1. Paul first appealed to the Thessalonians on the basis of the coming of our Lord and gathering to Him. He sought to restore confidence in these two doctrines.

2. Paul established truth on the basis of what the false teaching omitted from the day of the Lord. a) It omitted the coming of Christ and gathering of saints on that day. b) It omitted events that occur before the day of the Lord, namely, the revelation of the man of sin, and the apostasy (falling from the Christian faith).

Paul previously instructed the Thessalonians (I Thess. 5:1ff) to be “alert” because the day of the Lord will come suddenly, “as a thief in the night.” And staying alert was taught as a perquisite for gathering to the Lord. If “God has not destined us for wrath” (5:9), all the more, stay alert, ready in mind and spirit, to resist the perils of the lawless one and the apostasy.

The implication is that those who fail to fix this hope in their hearts and be ready at His coming and our gathering to Him, will join in apostasy. The man of sin will be in league with Satan who deceives those that perish (v.9), and the deceit is “…in the ones perishing, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in urighteousness” (II Thess. 2:10-12). The Church will suffer during the great apostasy.


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[CityOfGod]

This passage is just saying that the falling away will take place and the Anti-Christ will come before Christ returns.

It's that simple.

 

[Bethwhite]

This passage is just saying that the falling away will take place and the Anti-Christ will come before Christ returns.

It's that simple.

The passage is just saying that the moving away will take place and then the antichrist will come and deceive many and then Christ comes on the clouds to destroy him.

Rev 12 and 13 as well as Matt 24 and Rev 6-9 confirm it.

 

[CityOfGod]

The passage is just saying that the moving away will take place and then the antichrist will come and deceive many and then Christ comes on the clouds to destroy him.

No, that's not what the passage said.

 

[Bethwhite]

No, that's not what the passage said.

Yes it did.

Apostasia = moving away or departure.
Apostasy = moving away or departure.

What is being moved away or departed from is in context.

"Our gathering together unto Him" is a moving away and departure.
A restrainer who is "taken out of the way" is a moving away and departure.

Hebrew Names Version

2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming

2 Thess 2 says the exact same thing that Jesus did in Matt 24, Rev 6-9 and Rev 12-13 and Paul did in 1 Thess 4-5. The church is removed prior to wrath, when God casts down the devil and uses him to force people to choose who they will serve for eternity before He comes on the clouds to destroy them.

 

[CityOfGod]

Yes it did.

No it didn't. You added to the text. No need to do that.

 

[Maon]

The passage is just saying that the moving away will take place and then the antichrist will come and deceive many and then Christ comes on the clouds to destroy him.

Rev 12 and 13 as well as Matt 24 and Rev 6-9 confirm it.

Simple? Proof is in the context. The falling away is by deception from the man of sin. Its not one is first and the other follows later.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Maon]

"Moving away" is a weak phrase for the word that is used, "apostasy". Moving away was not used for the revelation of the man of sin, rather, "to be revealed." Moving away was not the phrase for "gathering together." Each example is different from the others, and any common thread will not rest on moving away.

 

[Bethwhite]

No it didn't. You added to the text. No need to do that.

No, I didn't. Apostasia is a Greek word that means departure. What has been added to the text is the idea that there is a departure FROM THE FAITH before the man of sin is revealed.

Simple? Proof is in the context. The falling away is by deception from the man of sin. Its not one is first and the other follows later.

Something is departing, being "taken out of the way" before the man of sin is revealed. Paul defined it as the church (our gathering together unto him).

Hebrew Names Version

2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming

"Moving away" is a weak phrase for the word that is used, "apostasy". Moving away was not used for the revelation of the man of sin, rather, "to be revealed." Moving away was not the phrase for "gathering together." Each example is different from the others, and any common thread will not rest on moving away.

Departure.

Something that restrains the devil is departing, leaving, being "taken out of the way" before the man of sin is revealed.

Luk 10:19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Paul defined what it is in the very first verse.

2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you

2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming


How do I know this is correct? Because Rev 12/13, Rev 6-9, 1 Thess 5 and Matt 24 all confirm it.

 

[Maon]

Bethwhite, you say---Apostasia = moving away or departure.
Apostasy = moving away or departure.

What is being moved away or departed from is in context.

"Our gathering together unto Him" is a moving away and departure.
A restrainer who is "taken out of the way" is a moving away and depart

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Don't know why you want to use "moving away" in so many places, and essentially alter the meanings. But let me understand from your examples, the moving away in the gathering to Christ is the same as apostasy -sia? And the restraining thing is apostacy?--now that's an interesting oxymoron. The defining terms can be interchange with apostasy as long as they are moving away? Is that what you say?

>Your say, Something is departing, being "taken out of the way" before the man of sin is revealed. Paul defined it as the church (our gathering together unto him).

Don't think Paul did. If the church is apostasy (taken out), then to whom is the man of sin revealed? After all, he comes with deception. His revelation is to believers that stay "alert".
The "thing" and the "he" that is taken out of the way is linked to the mystery of lawlessness that is already at work. In context, law is closer to what is removed than the church! Right! References to being gathered to Him are for the day of the Lord.

 

[Bethwhite]

Bethwhite, you say---Apostasia = moving away or departure.
Apostasy = moving away or departure.

What is being moved away or departed from is in context.

"Our gathering together unto Him" is a moving away and departure.
A restrainer who is "taken out of the way" is a moving away and depart

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Don't know why you want to use "moving away" in so many places, and essentially alter the meanings. But let me understand from your examples, the moving away in the gathering to Christ is the same as apostasy -sia?

Yes, just as Paul said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", Paul said "our gathering together unto Him" is a departure = apostasia. We are leaving this earth and going to heaven when we are gathered together unto Him.

"our gathering together unto Him" = Apostasia (departure)
restrainer "taken out of the way" = Apostasia (departure)


The gathering together unto God is the departure from the earth.

And the restraining thing is apostacy?--now that's an interesting oxymoron. The defining terms can be interchange with apostasy as long as they are moving away? Is that what you say?

No, the restrainer is not apostasia. The restrainer being "taken out of the way" is apostasia because apostasia means departure. The restrainer is departing. "taken out of the way" = apostasia.

2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming

Don't think Paul did. If the church is apostasy (taken out), then to whom is the man of sin revealed? After all, he comes with deception. His revelation is to believers that stay "alert".
The "thing" and the "he" that is taken out of the way is linked to the mystery of lawlessness that is already at work. In context, law is closer to what is removed than the church! Right! References to being gathered to Him are for the day of the Lord.

Matt 24 says the elect are around. Rev 7 and 9 defines who the elect are - 144,000 of Israel who are sealed and protected from the devil while he is on earth. And guess where the church is at that moment!

The whole point of the man of sin and the mark of the beast is to force people to choose whom they will serve for eternity before He comes to destroy.

2Th 2:9 even he whose coming is according to the working of Hasatan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn't receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie;
2Th 2:12 that they all might be judged who didn't believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Bethwhite]

absent from the body - is not the same word - as falling away

Of course not. That's not the point.

It's a literary device that Paul used. It's a simile.

Absent from the body (is the same thing AS) to be Present with the Lord

Our gathering to Jesus (is the same thing AS) the departure (from the earth).

 

[Maon]

This gets overwhelming and I just want to simply consider, Bethwhite, your four examples from IIThess. 2:1-8 of apostasy defined as "moving away or departure". Of the four examples you gave only one contained the actual word "apostasy" (as I understand) v.3 and that verse is related to what has been called the "falling away." Now I don't oppose your technical concept of departure, but rather as it is applied, for you are causing Paul to say that the gathering to the Lord comes first---and that is not what he said. Your post as you posted it: "For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction." The apostasy comes first, and we all know the doctrinal meaning of apostasy and apostate. And the man of sin is a deceiver and he supports the apostasy.

 

[Bethwhite]

This gets overwhelming and I just want to simply consider, Bethwhite, your four examples from IIThess. 2:1-8 of apostasy defined as "moving away or departure". Of the four examples you gave only one contained the actual word "apostasy" (as I understand) v.3 and that verse is related to what has been called the "falling away."

The "actual" word used was the Greek word, Apostasia.
Apostasia means departure and so does "apostasy", technically.
But "apostasy", as many understand it today, refers to a departure from religious beliefs.

But this is not at all what the topic sentence said the passage was about.

2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you

Now I don't oppose your technical concept of departure, but rather as it is applied, for you are causing Paul to say that the gathering to the Lord comes first---and that is not what he said.

He did say it. The passage is ABOUT the departure of the church and the timing of it.

2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you

Your post as you posted it: "For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction." The apostasy comes first, and we all know the doctrinal meaning of apostasy and apostate. And the man of sin is a deceiver and he supports the apostasy.

Looking at it your way (as if apostasy refers to the man of sin's deceptions), you have the apostasy coming before the apostate when it is actually the other way around, the apostate comes before the apostasy.

The man of sin comes before his deception and the church departs before the man of sin is revealed because we restrain the wickedness and always have by the blood of Jesus and the power of God.


2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming
2Th 2:9 even he whose coming is according to the working of Hasatan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn't receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie;
2Th 2:12 that they all might be judged who didn't believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Let's not forget that this exact scenario is shown in Revelation 12 and 13 as well as Rev 6-9. Scripture confirms scripture.

 

[Maon]

Bethwhite, thank you for your time and patience.

The purpose of II Thess.2 is not found in v.1, but rather in vv.2,3: “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the soon of perdition.”

Another observation, Paul did not sensor their belief in anticipation for the day of the Lord. In fact, I Thess. cp.5 admonished the Thessalonians to be alert, awake, to watch for the day of the Lord, for that day “cometh as a thief in the night.”

I have concerns about your response. First you said, “Looking at it your way (as if apostasy refers to the man of sin's deceptions), you have the apostasy coming before the apostate when it is actually the other way around, the apostate comes before the apostasy.” Again, “The man of sin comes before his deception and the church departs before the man of sin is revealed because we restrain the wickedness.”

This is not what Paul intended. He was explaining what comes first before the day of the Lord. “That day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin is revealed.” Both the falling away and revelation of the man of sin come first.

(We cannot presume to know what restrains. Paul did not say.)

Second, you said, “He did say it. The passage is ABOUT the departure of the church and the timing of it.” NOT! My greater concern with your interpretation is that by insisting on the word “departure”, even when the word is not used, you argue “departure of the church” rather than departure from the faith. As noted above, the major emphasis of the passage is not the departure of the church; it’s about what comes before the day of the Lord: i.e. “departure” from the faith.

The false teaching did not account for two things on the day of the Lord: 1) the coming of Christ, and 2) our being gathered to Him. Let's not make the same mistake. Therefore, Paul would say, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and by our gathering to him” v.1


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[Bethwhite]

Bethwhite, thank you for your time and patience.

The purpose of II Thess.2 is not found in v.1, but rather in vv.2,3: “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the soon of perdition.”

Another observation, Paul did not sensor their belief in anticipation for the day of the Lord. In fact, I Thess. cp.5 admonished the Thessalonians to be alert, awake, to watch for the day of the Lord, for that day “cometh as a thief in the night.”

I have concerns about your response. First you said, “Looking at it your way (as if apostasy refers to the man of sin's deceptions), you have the apostasy coming before the apostate when it is actually the other way around, the apostate comes before the apostasy.” Again, “The man of sin comes before his deception and the church departs before the man of sin is revealed because we restrain the wickedness.”

This is not what Paul intended. He was explaining what comes first before the day of the Lord. “That day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin is revealed.” Both the falling away and revelation of the man of sin come first.

(We cannot presume to know what restrains. Paul did not say.)

Second, you said, “He did say it. The passage is ABOUT the departure of the church and the timing of it.” NOT! My greater concern with your interpretation is that by insisting on the word “departure”, even when the word is not used, you argue “departure of the church” rather than departure from the faith. As noted above, the major emphasis of the passage is not the departure of the church; it’s about what comes before the day of the Lord: i.e. “departure” from the faith.

The false teaching did not account for two things on the day of the Lord: 1) the coming of Christ, and 2) our being gathered to Him. Let's not make the same mistake. Therefore, Paul would say, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and by our gathering to him” v.1


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I will go over this point by point but don't you agree that scripture should confirm scripture?

Doesn't this scripture show us that the church whose Salvation (Christ) has come is dwelling in heaven before the man of sin is empowered?

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying,in heaven Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
...17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Isn't this showing the difference between the wise and foolish virgins in Jesus' parable about the Kingdom of Heaven in Matt 25?

Those who are ready enter in and the door is shut.

Matt 25:Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

[Bethwhite]

Bethwhite, thank you for your time and patience.

The purpose of II Thess.2 is not found in v.1, but rather in vv.2,3: “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the soon of perdition.”

It says, concerning:
1. The coming of our Lord
2. and our gathering together unto him
3. do not be troubled that the Day of the Lord has already come
why?
The day of the Lord will not come unless
1. The "apostasia" comes first
2. and the man of sin is revealed
Don't you remember when I told you this?
1. NOW YOU KNOW WHAT IS RESTRAINING HIM before he is revealed.

So, the meaning of the word "apostasia' is exactly what is restraining him.

The Greek word "apostasia" means "departure". What is being departed from depends on the context.

You say that the departure "from the faith" is what is restraining him from being revealed. I believe that it is "our gathering together unto him", aka "the Apostasia", "the departure" of the church, that is standing in the way of the revealing of the antichrist.

2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.


After all, Jesus DID say that the great tribulation that began with the desolation of Israel will be cut short for the sake of the elect and then the false christ and false prophets will arise and perform false miracles.

Rev 7 shows the elect and where they are standing when the tribulation is cut short before the devil empowers the antichrist.

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.

Another observation, Paul did not sensor their belief in anticipation for the day of the Lord. In fact, I Thess. cp.5 admonished the Thessalonians to be alert, awake, to watch for the day of the Lord, for that day “cometh as a thief in the night.”

I have concerns about your response. First you said, “Looking at it your way (as if apostasy refers to the man of sin's deceptions), you have the apostasy coming before the apostate when it is actually the other way around, the apostate comes before the apostasy.” Again, “The man of sin comes before his deception and the church departs before the man of sin is revealed because we restrain the wickedness.”

This is not what Paul intended. He was explaining what comes first before the day of the Lord. “That day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin is revealed.” Both the falling away and revelation of the man of sin come first.

Yes, both the apostasia and the man of sin come before Christ comes on the clouds to destroy.

(We cannot presume to know what restrains. Paul did not say.)

Yes, he did. He told us.

2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

Second, you said, “He did say it. The passage is ABOUT the departure of the church and the timing of it.” NOT! My greater concern with your interpretation is that by insisting on the word “departure”, even when the word is not used, you argue “departure of the church” rather than departure from the faith. As noted above, the major emphasis of the passage is not the departure of the church; it’s about what comes before the day of the Lord: i.e. “departure” from the faith.

The false teaching did not account for two things on the day of the Lord: 1) the coming of Christ, and 2) our being gathered to Him. Let's not make the same mistake. Therefore, Paul would say, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and by our gathering to him” v.1


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No, the apostasia is what leads to the revealing of the man of sin. The "apostasia" comes first and then the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thess 2:3 For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

You insist that the departure "from the faith" comes first and then the man of sin is revealed.

I believe that the departure "of the church" (our gathering together unto him) comes first and then the man of sin is revealed.

And now you know what is restraining him, before he can be revealed!

The restrainer must be taken out of the way (depart) before he can be revealed.

2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming

 

[Maon]

Sometimes systematic theology is a curse, when we cannot deal with the context of Scripture without embellishment.
The Thessalonians knew of the restraint v.6 because Paul had told them in previous instruction v.5; BUT he did not write it for our benefit. You are guessing.

You twist my words by saying "You insist that the departure "from the faith" comes first and then the man of sin is revealed." This is not what I wrote, rather I wrote, "He (Paul) was explaining what comes first before the day of the Lord. 'That day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin is revealed.' Both the falling away and revelation of the man of sin come first." --before the day of the Lord!!!!!!!!!!

The falling away---the apostasy or departure---is departure from the faith, NOT the gathering to Him. Christ will return on the day of the Lord, and then we will be gathered.

Before the day of the Lord, there will be both a falling away from the faith and deception by the man of sin.