Ignatius on the Eucharist

[Arsenios]

Point well taken. There are those who claim John's epistles were written with regard to the Gnostics, but I've never been completely sold on that argument. But then I've never given myself to a truly in-depth study of his epistles either. Being forced to identify the antagonists might cause me to change my view on that.


I fear responding here because it risks opening the thread up to a wider debate on the Real Presence and this will leave my original argument in the dust, LoL. But at this risk, let me ask: Does the EOC hold that the Presence is inherent in the elements, irregardless of the spiritual state of the congregation? My personal take is that the Presence is inherent in His body of congregants when they are truly Spirit-filled believers joining together (as per say a passage like 1 Corinthians 5:3-5). And because they are partakers of that one and self-same Spirit together, their consuming the elements is a representation of this fact. I also take the "the Bread of Life" as an allusion to how His words are Spirit and Life; therefore whoever partakes of the Word and the Spirit is a true partaker of the Real Presence represented in the bread and wine, yet those who do not can partake of communion all they want yet will not be truly taking part in the Real Presence.

Not sure if I'm explaining my position clearly, but it was an attempt, LoL.

We recorded the dogma here:

1Co 11:23-25
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you,
That the Lord Jesus the same night in which He was betrayed took bread:
And when he had given thanks, He brake it, and said,
"Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you:
This do in remembrance of me."
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying,
"This cup is the new testament in my blood:
This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

So that the Bread and the Wine, after the Thanksgiving and the Breaking, ARE His Body and His Blood...
They do not become anything other except by the Blessing of the Lord, which is added to them by Him...
We do not use words like "literally" etc... Or trans-substantiation...

But if one is not worthily prepared to receive it, and receives it, we do understand that the Angel of the Altar removes the Body and Blood from the bread and the wine before it enters one's mouth, lest one be harmed thereby - It is Fire, consuming the unworthy... And THAT is why we have closed Communion... Because we wish no harm to those outside it... But pray for them fervently and with tears...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

fwiw, My Church is the Church from which St. Ignatius of Antioch was taken to his martyrdom...
The Order of St. Ignatius of Antioch is one of our Orders...

Arsenios

 

[Hidden In Him]

But is one is not worthily prepared to receive it, and receives it, we do understand that the Angel of the Altar removes the Body and Blood from the bread and the wine before it enters one's mouth, lest one be harmed thereby

Ok, this is interesting, but curious. Wasn't the Lord's intended purpose that they judge themselves before openly proclaiming to be a part of the body of Christ by taking communion? (1 Corinthians 11:31-32). It would seem to me that by taking the teeth out of the practice one would be making it of no consequence either way whether the faithful are judging themselves or not.

 

[Arsenios]

Ok, this is interesting, but curious.

I would personally take it a step further and say it is very questionable, I say!
A dubious proposition at best, as any resonable person can readily perceive!

Wasn't the Lord's intended purpose that they judge themselves before openly proclaiming to be a part of the body of Christ by taking communion?

( 1Corinthians 11:31-32).

It is a proclaiming that is not public but is Ekklesiastical, in which one is proclaiming the Lord's Death in one's own soul within His Body, the Ekklesia... Ananias and his wife died for their "private" witholding of moneys... The issues are life and death... The core of being Christian is at stake, you see... eg "We are baptized INTO His Death..." And in this we mortify the flesh... And this means attaininng and maintaining a purified conscience, in which this Faith of Christ is held, as Paul recorded for us... So that IF we should partake of this cup with an impure conscience - eg with unconfessed and hidden sins, or carelessness - we partake unto our harm... Judas partook of it the night he departed from Christ and betrayed him, for he was stealing and hiding his thefts... So simple partaking does not make one holy, but for the faithful, it serves unto their sanctification and their strengthening in their struggles in the world...

So that receiving Holy Communion is not the proclaiming of one's SELF to be a part of the Body of Christ, but it is instead to have Life within one's self... And the more frequently the better, if one is actively engaged in the struggles of repentance in the taking up of one's cross...(Repentance is, you see, ongoing and voluntary. It is not imposed...)

It would seem to me that by taking the teeth out of the practice one would be making it of no consequence either way whether the faithful are judging themselves or not.

The early Christians were fully consecrated to Christ in a way that would astonish us all today... For these, the warning was severe - Small transgressions are more serious to these than are large ones to us more behemothic types... With Orthodox Monastics, this is true to this day, such is the stringency of their manner of life - Small transgressions can be catastrophic, hence many confess their thoughts daily, let alone sins, for they are working backward from the doing of evil to the speaking of evil to the thinking of evil, to the feeling of evil... For these, the Biblical way is in force - Their lives are wide open and visible to all their brethren and they are 'all in', eg fully committed 24/7/365/6 till the last breath...

The rest of us have jobs in the world and families and responsibilities... And this worldly pace gets hectic... And in our love for God, we can sometimes, and even sometimes often, not be as prepared as we should be and yet we still step forth and receive... God does not desire the death of such people... They are precious to Him... And He protects them from the Fire of the Gifts in His Great Mercy...

I do not know how far back this theologoumenon goes... It is not dogma to my knowledge... But it is a widely held pious opinion... By doing so, He graciously slows the process of maturation in Christ for those greatly burdened in worldly responsibilities... Most people I know have hidden sins of which they are unaware... I have little doubt that I am (at the very least) close to the top of THAT pile!

Thanks be to God that He loves us all...

Arsenios

 

[Hidden In Him]

I would personally take it a step further and say it is very questionable, I say!
A dubious proposition at best, as any resonable person can readily perceive!

LoL. I like you, Arsenios. You always have interesting stuff to say and good spirit about you, LoL.

It is a proclaiming that is not public but is Ekklesiastical, in which one is proclaiming the Lord's Death in one's own soul within His Body, the Ekklesia...

Agreed.

Ananias and his wife died for their "private" witholding of moneys... The issues are life and death... The core of being Christian is at stake, you see... eg "We are baptized INTO His Death..." And in this we mortify the flesh...

Agreed.

So that IF we should partake of this cup with an impure conscience - eg with unconfessed and hidden sins, or carelessness - we partake unto our harm... Judas partook of it the night he departed from Christ and betrayed him, for he was stealing and hiding his thefts...

Very interesting...

So simple partaking does not make one holy, but for the faithful, it serves unto their sanctification and their strengthening in their struggles in the world...

Agreed.

So that receiving Holy Communion is not the proclaiming of one's SELF to be a part of the Body of Christ, but it is instead to have Life within one's self... And the more frequently the better, if one is actively engaged in the struggles of repentance in the taking up of one's cross...(Repentance is, you see, ongoing and voluntary. It is not imposed...)

Excellent.

The early Christians were fully consecrated to Christ in a way that would astonish us all today... For these, the warning was severe - Small transgressions are more serious to these than are large ones to us more behemothic types...

Agreed.

With Orthodox Monastics, this is true to this day, such is the stringency of their manner of life - Small transgressions can be catastrophic, hence many confess their thoughts daily, let alone sins, for they are working backward from the doing of evil to the speaking of evil to the thinking of evil, to the feeling of evil...

I recall reading something very similar in the early fathers somewhere; something to the effect "for whom even their thoughts are being perfected, so as not to sin even in thought" or some such thing.

But now let me ask you a question about the Monastics: Are they experiencing manifestations of the judgments of God coming upon them in similar ways if they sin? I'm not asking to question it so much as to decipher if the cause is what I have supposed it to be (I believe the judgments of God to have largely disappeared from the church fairly early because they distanced themselves from intimacy with God, and from truly dwelling in the manifest presence of God corporately as a church).

The rest of us have jobs in the world and families and responsibilities... And this worldly pace gets hectic... And in our love for God, we can sometimes, and even sometimes often, not be as prepared as we should be and yet we still step forth and receive... God does not desire the death of such people... They are precious to Him... And He protects them from the Fire of the Gifts in His Great Mercy...

Amen. Though I do hold that He greatly desires for His body (and temple) to return to being so in the true sense of the word, and not just largely in name only.

I do not know how far back this theologoumenon goes... It is not dogma to my knowledge... But it is a widely held pious opinion... By doing so, He graciously slows the process of maturation in Christ for those greatly burdened in worldly responsibilities... Most people I know have hidden sins of which they are unaware... I have little doubt that I am (at the very least) close to the top of THAT pile!

A Ha Ha! You sir are humble; the mark of a good man. I'm somewhere near the top of that pile myself probably, so you're in good company, LoL.

Thanks for the post. I enjoyed it.

 

[Arsenios]

LoL. I like you, Arsenios. You always have interesting stuff to say and good spirit about you, LoL.

Well thank-you for your lovely and fun post too!

I recall reading something very similar in the early fathers somewhere; something to the effect "for whom even their thoughts are being perfected, so as not to sin even in thought" or some such thing.

And not even in feelings... Such is the nature of being perfected in Christ... A little flash of anger without any thought with it at all, say for when someone does something very wrong toward you, or toward your spouse, or toward your child, or the Church, or even toward God - That little flash needs to be siezed - Transliterating the Greek would say it needs to be HARPOONED! (seriously! Greek is good that way!), and it needs to be siezed immediately - Awake or asleep, rested or tired, at all times... This is called vigilance, and for this sake the Church prescribes keeping Vigil - All Night Vigil - To drive ALL that is within oneself out of the darkness and into the Light and deal with it... It is called living a repentant life...

But now let me ask you a question about the Monastics:

Yeah! Enough of your superficial flattery, I say! Bring on the main course!

Are they experiencing manifestations of the judgments of God coming upon them in similar ways if they sin?

Only if they do so in knowledge without confession and repentance... And the sooner the better is that confession and repentance... The departure of God's Grace is inwardly palpable and ghastly and instant... One teensy sip of that old vomit is a disaster... And to receive Communion without first confessing it, and the resultant remission of that sin [or not...] will have dire consequences, as Paul said: Many have become sick, and some have fallen asleep (died)... Which does NOT mean that getting sick only means one has fallen...
Adam ate only once, btw, of that Tree...
And died some 900 years later...
He did not repent in the Garden...

I'm not asking to question it so much as to decipher if the cause is what I have supposed it to be (I believe the judgments of God to have largely disappeared from the church fairly early because they distanced themselves from intimacy with God, and from truly dwelling in the manifest presence of God corporately as a church).

The efficacious purification of the heart is hard to find even in Orthodox Churches - So the Judgement to which you allude is withdrawn... You will normally find a few in any parish - And for them, it awaits them if they become dogs returning to old vomit, yet there is a way for recovery for them... For evil people, such vomit is nourishing, and not held against them in this life...

Thanks for the post. I enjoyed it.

Back at ya!

Arsenios

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yeah! Enough of your superficial flattery, I say! Bring on the main course!

Ha Ha! I must confess I can be guilty of laying it on a little too thick with some, but before the Lord Jesus Christ I promise I wasn't doing so here, LoL.

Only if they do so in knowledge without confession and repentance... And the sooner the better is that confession and repentance... The departure of God's Grace is inwardly palpable and ghastly and instant... One teensy sip of that old vomit is a disaster...

Ok. I appreciate that reply.

The efficacious purification of the heart is hard to find even in Orthodox Churches - So the Judgement to which you allude is withdrawn... You will normally find a few in any parish - And for them, it awaits them if they become dogs returning to old vomit, yet there is a way for recovery for them... For evil people, such vomit is nourishing, and not held against them in this life...

Good answer.

 

[PeaceB]

The evidence you are pointing to shows (if it does) that the bread and wine become the flesh and blood of Christ in some sense or in some way. That's the doctrine of the Real Presence.

That sounds more like the Doctrine of Albion to me. Do you have any source that defines the Real Presence that way, or are you making things up again?

The doctrine excludes symbolic and metaphorical senses, so that makes your definition too broad.

Now, if transubstantiation is out, and symbolic and metaphorical senses are out, why don't you explain to us the sense in which the bread and wine becomes our Lord's body and blood?

You have often wrote that the Real Presence is true, and that transubstantiation is wrong, but to my knowledge you have not written one time the sense in which you believe that He is actually present in the bread and wine.

I would guess that your response is "I have no idea what sense in which He is present, but it can't be what the Catholic Church says, because in that case I would have to repent and come back to the Church, and I really don't want to do that."

But please correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[Albion]

The doctrine excludes symbolic and metaphorical senses, so that makes your definition too broad.

The sacrament includes all of that, but what makes it the doctrine of the Real Presence is that it is believed that Christ in literally present in a special way aside from all the rest. That is what REAL means in the name of this doctrine.

You have often wrote that the Real Presence is true, and that transubstantiation is wrong, but to my knowledge you have not written one time the sense in which you believe that He is actually present in the bread and wine.

I believe, along with my church, that he is really present, not just represented or symbolized, but really present in an heavenly and spiritual way.

It is not some religious version of alchemy in which, by magic, the bread and wine cease to exist although all of our senses indicate that they remain, and that the literal, physical, carnal body and blood of Christ have taken their place.

 

[Arsenios]

The sacrament includes all of that, but what makes it the doctrine of the Real Presence is that it is believed that Christ in literally present in a special way aside from all the rest. That is what REAL means in the name of this doctrine.

I believe, along with my church, that he is really present, not just represented or symbolized, but really present in an heavenly and spiritual way.

It is not some religious version of alchemy in which, by magic, the bread and wine cease to exist although all of our senses indicate that they remain, and that the literal, physical, carnal body and blood of Christ have taken their place.

Be careful here, Albion - Ya gotta watch your step...
You are starting to sound like some blathering Orthodox Christian...
The only thing saving you from being condemned on this charge...
Is that you did NOT say: "The How is a Mystery of the Church."
Nor did you mention the term Ontologically Present...
So you are safe for now, but you got pretty close to the edge, OK?



Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Be careful here, Albion - Ya gotta watch your step...
You are starting to sound like some blathering Orthodox Christian...
The only thing saving you from being condemned on this charge...
Is that you did NOT say: "The How is a Mystery of the Church."
Nor did you mention the term Ontologically Present...
So you are safe for now, but you got pretty close to the edge, OK?



Arsenios

Not sure about that. According to what I think I know, Orthodoxy agrees with Transubstantiation except that it -- in typical Orthodox fashion -- doesn't explain or want to explain HOW the transformation takes place.

 

[Arsenios]

Not sure about that. According to what I think I know, Orthodoxy agrees with Transubstantiation except that it -- in typical Orthodox fashion -- doesn't explain or want to explain HOW the transformation takes place.

Your explanation was totally Orthodox - We do not believe in trans-substantion - The Bread and the Wine of the Eucharist ARE the Body and Blood of Christ - They become so because they are consecrated BY the Body of Christ is accord with Christ's Commandments as Christ did it the night prior to His Passion... As afterward He was not recognized on the Road to Emmaeus by His Disciples until they saw Him break bread...

So we do not separate the Body and Blood from the Bread and the Wine...
They each are both...

How is this so?
It is a Mystery of the Body of Christ...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

I guess that I am surprised by that reply, and its for this reason--

Orthodox Christians almost always say that they believe in Transubstantiation or else that they agree with the RCC (except, as we know, that they do not attempt to explain the mechanics of the mystery). WHY, I wonder, is that the case if their belief is as you have just explained it?

 

[tz620q]

Your explanation was totally Orthodox - We do not believe in trans-substantion - The Bread and the Wine of the Eucharist ARE the Body and Blood of Christ - They become so because they are consecrated BY the Body of Christ is accord with Christ's Commandments as Christ did it the night prior to His Passion... As afterward He was not recognized on the Road to Emmaeus by His Disciples until they saw Him break bread...

So we do not separate the Body and Blood from the Bread and the Wine...
They each are both...

How is this so?
It is a Mystery of the Body of Christ...

Arsenios

Arsenios, I tend to agree with the view that it is a mystery; but the logic escapes me when someone says that it is a mystery and that how this is done is not known. Yet they declare that it cannot be transubstantiation. Perhaps it is safer to just leave it as a mystery with transubstantiation being one possibility.

 

[PeaceB]

The sacrament includes all of that, but what makes it the doctrine of the Real Presence is that it is believed that Christ in literally present in a special way aside from all the rest. That is what REAL means in the name of this doctrine.

I believe, along with my church, that he is really present, not just represented or symbolized, but really present in an heavenly and spiritual way.

It is not some religious version of alchemy in which, by magic, the bread and wine cease to exist although all of our senses indicate that they remain, and that the literal, physical, carnal body and blood of Christ have taken their place.

Well, that is not what the Catholic Church teaches either, so we are in agreement.

I already corrected your erroneous understanding of transubstantiation previously with multiple quotes from actual Catholic sources, but if you choose to repeat the same things regardless, I suppose I will just have to repeat my charge that you are being disingenuous.

Here is another video that should help you understand what the church actually teaches (or anyone who is actually interested in the truth).

 

[Albion]

Arsenios, I tend to agree with the view that it is a mystery; but the logic escapes me when someone says that it is a mystery and that how this is done is not known. Yet they declare that it cannot be transubstantiation. Perhaps it is safer to just leave it as a mystery with transubstantiation being one possibility.

That probably would be a good approach, if it were possible.

 

[Albion]

Well, that is not what the Catholic Church teaches either, so we are in agreement.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches Transubstantiation. I described what that means.

 

[Arsenios]

Orthodox Christians almost always say that they believe in Transubstantiation or else that they agree with the RCC (except, as we know, that they do not attempt to explain the mechanics of the mystery). WHY, I wonder, is that the case if their belief is as you have just explained it?

You just answered your own question...
Because...
Transubstantiation is mechanics...
Mystery is the action of God...

Did you ever consider the word Mystery?
It begins with the Greek letter MU- (My-)...
You cannot produce this sound without closing your lips...
It ends with the word (hi-)-STERY...
hISTERION means standing...
Thus its fundamental meaning is "Standing with closed lips..."
It is the basis for the word mist...
It is the language of the Age to come...
Standing strong silently in God...

The term Sacrament, its western co-equivalent, is a slight degradation, you see...
It means Holy mind - True enough, but shifted a little...
You can do the math...
ymmv...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Ha Ha! I must confess I can be guilty of laying it on a little too thick with some, but before the Lord Jesus Christ I promise I wasn't doing so here, LoL.

Thick now is fun...

Thick later may squander the Gift...

I am pretty thick myself...

"Be ye perfected..." is a commandment concerning the last phase of Discipleship... It involves the utter coming to total self-consecration to God, "harpooning" every thought coming into the nous, and keeping it siezed until it be found not merely true, and not merely beneficial, but directly from God's Will... And only then, permitting its entry into the mind, and into the understanding, and into words, and finally into actions... It takes time, and the constant seeking, beckoning, and beseeching of God day and night, in everything in one's life, and this ONLY AFTER the ironing out and getting put to rest (mortification) of one's life-passions which marks the early stages of repentance...

No small matter...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

You just answered your own question...
Because...
Transubstantiation is mechanics...

I think you've misunderstood. If Orthodox people oppose the defining of any mechanics, why do they align with the RCC on this matter, knowing that the RCCs doctrine involves--and even requires-- that mechanical explanation?