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Ok, so I do see the humor and irony in this debate as believers of one way argue with a believer of another, both throwing verses back and forth to "prove" points of faith.
But anyway, I'll look at Ed's opening statement of belief.Among others: We believe that Jesus is a MAN - not God.
Yet Jesus did say, "I and the Father are One." hmmm...
We believe that the Trinity is a man-made doctrine.
And what does it matter? God is God, Jesus showed the way to God.
We believe that faith without works is dead. We believe that man is justified by works and not by faith only.
As do I. No great revelation there. What kind of works do you do Ed?
We believe that he who endures until the end will be saved.
Saved from?
We believe that baptism into the Iglesia Ni Cristo is necessary for salvation.
Ok, now you're getting into cult status.
We believe that only a messenger sent from God can preach the true gospel of salvation.
I agree, and that messenger's name is Jesus of Nazareth.
We believe that only the Iglesia Ni Cristo has a messenger sent from God.
The Mormons, JWs and others would disagree with you, and of course I do as stated above.
We believe that in order to maintain unity in the body of Christ, members must be submissive to the Administration of the church.
My 'submission' is to God alone; no man makes the rules.
We believe that the body of Christ must be of the same mind and judgment.
Our way or the highway (or low-way I guess you'd say.)
We believe that the Iglesia Ni Cristo is the true Church of Christ in these last days.
There is no TRUE church, only belief and actions according to the teachings of Jesus.
We believe that it is the Iglesia Ni Cristo that Christ purchased with his own blood.
That is your belief and you're welcome to it--doesn't make it right.
We believe that Christ gave his life for the Iglesia Ni Cristo.
Again, only your belief. Jesus died AND ROSE to show us life is eternal.
We believe that Christ is the savior of the Iglesia Ni Cristo.
Again, cult status, nothing more.
We believe that there is no salvation outside the Iglesia Ni Cristo.
Salvation lies in the teachings of Jesus, not your organization. Do what Jesus instructed, follow the commandments he spoke of, put God first. What more is there?
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"If I say to you that Jesus meant they are ONE in caring for the sheep, would you believe it? No, you won't because you WANT John 10:30 to SAY what is in YOUR mind.
"
I find it funny how the jews he was talking to perfectly understood he was commiting blasphmy, but you don't.... He claimed to be God.
Ed you argue well, but it's still all about interpretation and faith. (and I noticed you skipped over my comments--no surprise) When someone comes and says, "I am a messenger from God," it is met with much skepticism, and rightly so. It is when that person puts his/her words into action that it matters.
The actions of your messenger, as well as those of Joseph Smith and Charles Russell, in circling the wagons and making their group exclusive (we are the ONLY true church) shows that they are not true messengers, any more than Jim Jones or David Koresh were. They may have had glimpses of truth, but once they put themselves as the final authority they reveal themselves as the power hungry wolves they are.
Jesus in his time among us welcomed everyone. He told us to have faith in God alone,
There is nothing exclusive about Jesus' love; it is universal, for everyone, forever.
Now you can quote Paul all you want, but when Jesus says, "I and the Father are One," and also says, "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed...nothing shall be impossible unto you," he is saying he is God, (italization mine)
Are these the things your messenger and administration is telling you to do?
If not, I think you need to reassess your faith in them, and simply put your faith in God and Jesus.
Gee Ed, you seem a bit defensive, not to mention angry, but that's ok. You said, "It is NOT their action that PROVES whether they are TRUE messengers of God or NIOT. The Bible teaches that they should be PROVEN by the DOCTRINES they teach (John 7:16-18)."
Ok, let's look:John 7:16: Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17: If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 18: He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
This is about action, about speaking the truth, but I'll say it again, as long as your 'administration' puts itself as the final judge of what is and isn't God's plan or message, they are putting themselves first and not God.
"Don't you think Jesus and his disciples were an EXCLUSIVE group?"
No, I don't. Anyone who came to listen was welcomed; if they left and didn't join they were not branded as evil or duped.
The only thing exclusive about Jesus is his stating he is the way, the truth and the life; if you look at his life, what he did and said, you can see that his way IS the only way to true spirituality and communion with God. It has nothing to do with administrators or messengers or even apostles. JESUS is the way. All you need to do is read the Gospels, live as Jesus instructed.
"You were WRONGLY taught my friend. On the CONTRARY, Jesus SAID: "Let your heart be troubled; you believe in God, you believe ALSO in me" (John 14:1). This statement ALSO proves that Jesus is NOT the God."
No, it doesn't prove anything about Jesus being or not being God. (And it's 'let NOT your heart be troubled;' I'm assuming that was a typo or oversite.) This is also the speech where Jesus says, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father," yet you still argue this has nothing to do with Jesus being God.
Oddly, you never quote the most obvious 'argument' concerning Jesus' deity: Matt 10:18: And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
"I am NOT blind to SEE to Jesus was NOT saying he is God in these verses you quoted."
Still, there is that sticky issue of "I and the Father are One." What DOES that mean to you? Is there any other way of explaining it except to say Jesus and God are ONE? as in ONE? I didn't put words in Jesus' mouth, it's right there in black and white. Good thing there are no contradictions in the Bible, eh?
"They do NOT put their OWN words in Jesus' mouth then say that "Jesus SAID this" like what pseudo-Christians do."
Spoken like a true cultist, but that's beside the point. I use direct quotes from Jesus in the Gospels. I don't bother with Paul, or Peter, or John, or James, though I do read them and study them. I see what I see, and I don't need any 'administrator' telling me what it means; I have enough knowledge and wisdom to divine their meanings. (This isn't to say I don't listen to others' interpretations and leave the door open that I could be wrong about an interpretation.)
"You say, "put your faith in God and Jesus." Do you follow your OWN advice my friend?"
Absolutely. Only God and Jesus as I read the words in the Gospels.
"WORST, you PUT words in Jesus' mouth. Jesus SAYS "I and the Father are one." You say "Jesus says he is God."
Then I ask again, what does this line mean? You have yet to answer it except to say it doesn't say what it says.
Study with you? I think not my friend, for you've already shown that your way is the pick-and-choose way of many Christians. I can read the Gospels easily enough, thanks anyway.
Originally posted by edpobre
Go to one someday so you won't rely on FALSE information.
[/B]
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I'm NOT a Jew and I DON'T think like the Jews who KILLED Jesus. "
I do in terms of knowledge. Satan knows exactly who christ is, as did those people, he is God.
"The Jews were BENT on killing Jesus because he was teaching something that went against their TRADITION. "
Nope, that actually had no malace towards him until he claimed to be God. That's exactly what the scriptures say.
Originally posted by TOFT
Hey All,
Don't know if someone posted this at all...plan on reading the forum. But the matter of Jesus being God is explained in John 1, PLAINLY. "Word was God", "Word was made flesh". Simple, Solved, Done.
Through HIM,
TOFT
PS. Now I just wait for someone to muddy up the scriptures.
Originally posted by gunnysgt
These are some of the INC teachings:
Lesson No. 3
The True Religion
Theme:
Not all churches are religions of God.
Objectives
Rebuke the erroneous belief that all churches are of God..
Convince the candidate for baptism to the knowledge that the Church established by Christ is only one -- the Iglesia ni Cristo.
Summary:
The commonly accepted belief that all churches belong to God is false. Christ founded only one true Church -- the Church of Christ (Iglesia ni Cristo). Therefore we should value the Church because herein are we able to do the kind of service acceptable to God and through which we shall be saved.
Originally posted by gunnysgt
The Church of Christ
Theme: Christ commands that whoever desires to be saved should join the Church of Christ (Iglesia ni Cristo).
Objectives:
Show the indispensability of the Church of Christ in man's salvation.
Convince the candidate for baptism to believe that the Church of Christ is the Church which Christ will save on Judgment Day.
Summary:
Although many people know that the Savior is Jesus Christ, they still do not know how Christ effects the saving act and which Church He will save.
The Church of Christ is the Church that He will save because He made this Church His body and heads it Himself-before God, the Church and the Christ are one new man. This is the reason why Christ is able to answer for the sins of His Church without violating God's law, that whoever commits a sin, the same must die for that sin.
Hence, false is the belief that salvation can be attained by means of faith in Christ alone even without membership in the Church of Christ. The Church is necessary not because it saves but because it is the entity that Christ will save.
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