If you're engaged, is it still fornicating?

eatenbylocusts said:

Something that disturbs me is it seems like you think this is a cut and dry issue of "just submit and have sex", instead of finding out why the spouse doesn't want to. Sex where only one person is getting enjoyment out of it seems unhealthy and I would hope less satisfying to the other person. For women emotionally, simply not feeling loved or respected is a major turn-off. And that's just one of many possibilities for not wanting sex.

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rppearso said:

I also agree, my debate is from 10,000 ft based on what I went though in the past (also my experence was not as extreme but none the less painful, but I know of people who have had to deal with such extreme cases and I have recommended divorce, one of my best friends who is a nice guy his wife stopped sleeping with him and they sleep in seperate beds for OVER A YEAR, I lived with him in college while he was dating her and knew him very well so unless he was neglecting her or doing something messed up in secret I feel the divorce is totally justified). Obviously if her husband is comming home drunk and watching foot ball and not paying any attention to her I could see how she would not want sex (no abuse mentioned just neglect), in this case I would be just as up front with the husband.

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Danc922 said:

Doesn't matter what you feel. The Bible is very specific on what God allows divorce for. God's Word is far above your feelings, and you will be held accountable for leading people astray of His commands.

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Ben johnson said:

Sorry to be "late" in this thread. All sex outside of marriage, is fornication. Clinical studies (secular) support the idea that sex before marriage, reduces success in marriage.

The concept of "premarital sex", is really a fallicy. It's "extramarital sex" --- it is likely that a sexual relationship will end without marriage (breakup).

Marriage is based on "commitment"; and that's what the "paper", is. For those who say "We don't need the paper; we're married already before God" (I'm thinking of a specific colleague); but if that is TRUE, then there is no reason to AVOID the "paper". True to what I just said, that colleague is now permanently separated from his unfiance.

What is "love"? The best definition is 1Cor13. If a relationship is based on real love, then each person is selfless; and intensely desires for their mate to receive all the honor, respect, and fulfillment he or she deserves ("deserves", reflecting the desire to honor the other, which true love instills.)

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Sexual compatibility is important, so I'm very glad it was tested before we married, possibly finding out the hard way that there were issues in that department.
​

This is one of the saddest things I've heard; and I've heard it many times, not just here. Physically --- 100% of Humans are compatible. The very use of the word "compatibility", reveals "past history". A person who has learned a certain path, looks for another person who has a similar "learning".

Two people who are virgins when they marry --- have NO path, no history (and no "ghosts" haunting their thoughts). They learn the path, TOGETHER, nothing they do is "wrong".

Sex is the physical expression of emotional intimacy. The purpose of "courting", is to build the emotional; on which the physical is based. If it's built on "physical", then the foundation is rotten. Sexual compatibility is EMOTIONAL; when two people connect on emotional and spiritual levels, then the physical will "work".

Virginity is a rare gift nowadays; a virgin can offer complete commitment; the receiver KNOWS that he or she is the only one. There is no "past fantasy" or "memory", or "comparison"; she/he will know that their mate belongs to them, completely.

I am relatively old; never married. But marriage is a desire; in my heart is the image of my wife --- and the most important thing to me, is focusing on what I have to BE, so that I will deserve what kind of woman she is. In plain English, if I want a QUALITY wife, then I have to already be a good husband ("good catch"), when she meets me.

....and she will know that all these years, I have saved myself for HER.

Before she was there, there was the dream of her. By faith, I am already married to her. How can I be unfaithful?


Yet --- all this talk, requires "foundations"; Humans do, as they are; I can talk of "chastity" and "purity" --- but to people who do not know Christ as I do, they will have no reference to understand; they will think me "silly". So it is meaningless really to speak to people of "fornication" or "purity". If I teach them of JESUS, then He-in-their-hearts, will teach them exactly what I have been taught.

He is the Creator; He made sex. He made me --- He knows (and wants) what is best for me.

...and for that wife that I have not yet met...

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rppearso said:

You obviously dident read all the posts and just decided you wanted to participate on a knee jerk emotional reaction. You are correct the bible does state what justifies a divorce and unequally yolked marriages is one reason. I am so tired of being attacked on this very clear issue by people who claim to be Christians this will be my last post unless the childish attacks can stop. If one spouse continues to refuse it is questionable if they are Christian (Mathew 18:17), they are then unequally yoked and not peaceful due to sexual refusal divorce is warranted 1 Cor 7:10-15. I believe this logic is sound because it would be an absolute nightmare to live in a sexual refusal environment. If you want to get snappy or rude and lash out I cant control that but this is what the bible says, if you dont want to have sex with your spouse then you should not get married or marry someone who has no libido like an enuich this should not be a hard concept nor do I deserve to be lashed out against just because im calling people out on there poor behavior and telling men (mostly men some women) that they don't have to tolerate it.

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Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers [do not make mismated alliances with them or come under a different yoke with them, inconsistent with your faith]. For what partnership have right living and right standing with God with iniquity and lawlessness? Or how can light have fellowship with darkness?

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So, come out from among [unbelievers], and separate (sever) yourselves from them, says the Lord, and touch not [any] unclean thing; then I will receive you kindly and treat you with favor

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If you think your wife isn't a Christian because she doesn't want sex because you want her to lick your butthole as you stated earlier in the thread, you're certifiably insane.

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BrotherAtArms said:

Yeah, 1 Cor 7:10-15 just says pretty much what we've all been saying to you... divorce is bad.
Like what Danc922 said, only the unbeliever can leave. Pretty much because if they do not believe in God, nor His law, they are not subject to it, whereas you, a believer, are. Therefore required to stay with your spouse.
The matter of being unequally yoked comes from 2 Cor. 6, and is obviously talking to a single person.
If you read 2 Cor. 6:14 it says:


The context of this is a pre-warning. "If you're thinking about it, or in the process of doing it, don't do it."
And then when you read vs. 14:


This is not talking to married couples. This chapter really has no focus on marriage.
But the scripture you provided in 1 Cor. 7 does speak directly to a married couple who has 1 believer and 1 unbeliever. To the believer, DO NOT LEAVE THEM. Very clear.
So again, adultery is the ONLY means for divorce Biblically. And I agree with Danc922, you will be held accountable for your actions, and your non biblical advice to divorce.

Ben Johnson, keep on serving God and depending on Him for your wife. No He's not a magical unicorn, He's GOD. When I met my wife, I wasn't even looking for her, God sent me into ministry and we got together, married, then moved on to be youth ministers in another church. God doesn't need our help, just our faith.
I know a guy who is 35 now, great minister of God, and has not married yet, and is still a virgin. He uses that to speak to teens a lot that everything should be in His timing, not ours (His will, not our own) and that even if he never marries, his life was not missing anything because he served such an awesome, loving God.


I laughed a good bit after reading this, I had to wait a minute before posting XD

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rppearso said:

I also agree, my debate is from 10,000 ft based on what I went though in the past (also my experence was not as extreme but none the less painful, but I know of people who have had to deal with such extreme cases and I have recommended divorce, one of my best friends who is a nice guy his wife stopped sleeping with him and they sleep in seperate beds for OVER A YEAR, I lived with him in college while he was dating her and knew him very well so unless he was neglecting her or doing something messed up in secret I feel the divorce is totally justified). Obviously if her husband is comming home drunk and watching foot ball and not paying any attention to her I could see how she would not want sex (no abuse mentioned just neglect), in this case I would be just as up front with the husband.

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eatenbylocusts said:

You should've been recommending counseling. How could you suggest divorce if you only hear one side? People don't just stop having sex with their spouse for no reason.

My ex-h was a pretty good lover (he had a lot of practice), but I wouldn't want to have sex with him if he had cussed at me on the phone when I called from work to say hi. Then he would complain to my family and friends that I sometimes refused him instead of changing his mean behaviour. And I told him why I didn't feel like being intimate with him so he didn't have to guess.

Refusing to have sex does not make someone suddenly un-Christian; it means there's something wrong physically, emotionally, or something is wrong with the relationship.

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rppearso said:

They were in and out of different counseling, and like I said unless there was something he was keeping secret (like abusing his wife verbally or physically, which I strongly doubt) then a year of dealing with that is an issue.

guess what people guys pee out of there peepee does that mean you will only give a BJ with a condom I feel sorry for that guy, girls also pee there does that mean guys should not give oral to there wife I dont think most women would be to happy about that, give me a break people can you get any more immature, I almost feel like im posting with high schoolers here, if you shower before hand its not a big deal and that should not be new information for people here.

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Tropical Wilds said:

So a woman denying sex to a husband is her attempt to use sex to control him, and that's bad... But a man demanding sex or he'll leave said woman is not using sex as an attempt to control a person, and is OK?

Such doublestandards, and they all go back to being acceptable or non-acceptable depending on how you benefit from it. Wife denying sex obviously doesn't benefit you, thus it's a sin and she's a non-Christian for doing it... But you demanding sex or you'll leave, well gosh, you have sex so that's great.

And again, it's pride, selfishness, and a complete lack of compassion that states that your case of not having sex is the same as a spouse beating their spouse. Like I said, you don't have sex, the world isn't going to end. But if you're beaten by your spouse, it sure as heck could end your world and your life. It's not even slightly the same.



If somebody is announcing their sex life to their kids, then they're the jerk, not the spouse denying sex. Kids don't know about their parents sex life, nor should they. If it's brought up, that's just pathetic.



Um, I guess you don't remember, but I was on the thread where you discussed this, and you quite specifically said that you were considering divorcing your wife because she refused to meet a sexual need of yours, and how that was abusive. The act in question was oral stimulation of your anus, and anal sex. You went on and on about how you now distrusted her and didn't respect her because she wouldn't do it, and how you were contemplating divorce because she wouldn't meet your need. As I remember, you had announced you were leaving when she finally gave in and started meeting that need, and you came back and said that because she finally gave in, you wouldn't leave.

I'm glad that you do it and that you find it enjoyable. I hope your wife does as well. I remember at the time that I was shocked by your behavior on the subject, and thought your approach was extremely poor. I see your delivery, demands, and approaches haven't changed, and it quite frankly scares me that you feel that you should "preach" to people on this subject.



You state that people are immature about sexual topics, then you call a penis a "pee pee?"

As for trashing women who give oral sex to their partners when they wear a condom, that's just so petty, it's insane. It may not be a hygene issue, but a safety/health issue, a gag reflex issue, a desire for fun variety to use a condom, or just a plain desire for their partner to wear a condom. Who are you to condemn women who'd give oral sex, but request a condom? I had an ex who requested a condom for oral sex, because he didn't like the feeling of a mouth on his penis. Is he now a non-Christian because he doesn't like something you do?

What you like sexually doesn't mean all people like it, and it doesn't mean that your sexual appetite is now what God wants for everybody. You like oral sex, great. But to state that people who don't get it, or don't enjoy it the same way have something wrong with them... That's just wrong.



I'm not dazzled by your maturity today either... Using words like "pee pee" to describe a penis, and talking the "tell him I'm not talking to him" approach to debating is hardly a stunning display of maturity.

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Tropical Wilds said:

In the end, I guess it depends on what you want out of marriage.

Do you want a partner, friend, ally? Do you want somebody to love and be loved by? Somebody who's thoughts and feelings and beliefs and needs are as important, or more so, as your own? Somebody who if they asked, even if it made you uncomfortable or tested your limits and thresholds, you'd do it if it meant that person's happiness? Do you want to invest in a future with a person? Do you want somebody who challenges you, teaches you, supports you, cherishes you, and you do the same for?

Or do you want a servant who only appeals to your needs? Somebody who's prime focus in life is to give you what you want at the moment you want it? Somebody who holds a second postion in all ways to you and your wants? Somebody who you not only demand such unwaivering satisfaction from, but you penalize for not offering it? Not a partner, but somebody who's subserviant? The ruler of their life, mind, and body, who's focus should be on your pleasure and comfort at the dismissal of their own?

If you want the first, then you're not going to use sex as a weapon against them, threatening divorce if they don't appease your needs. If you want the second, then no problem. Berate and shame away. Just don't be shocked if they're unhappy with this and don't sign on to it with the same zeal as you seem to enforce such an arraingment.

Marriage is about compromise and respect. I just don't see somebody who respects their spouse saying that if they don't put out enough, they'll be ditched in favor of somebody who does.

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rppearso said:

Some people here have the dilusion that denying there husband is not a big deal, wait until you find out that he has been getting what he needs from an escort (probably through financial records) and come back and tell me how innocent it is. People who burn with passion are not going to live the celibate life and they are not even called to in the first place.

quote]

I don't recall anyone here saying it was no big deal. The difference in opinion is that you seem to think it's ok to divorce over this. There will alway be problems in marriages and they need to be worked out, not put your foot down and say my way or the highway. And encouraging other men to leave their wives over this is real scary.

I really don't think you understand women. Women don't stop having sex to reject their husband. They stop usually because they feel hurt, unloved, or disrespected. It's a lot less effort to work on the underlying issues than to start a new marriage and have the same problems all over again because you still haven't learned that women need different things than men. If you don't want to treat a woman in a way that enriches your marriage then you will be doomed in any marriage where the woman has a shred of self-respect. Women aren't different to bug men; we are different because God made us that way.

I'm glad your marriage is doing better, but if you had divorced do you really think you would have an easy time finding a woman who would be willing to perform the acts you wanted?

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Revenwyn said:

I guess you didn't read it right. We did get married legally. My family had it annulled, which they had no right to do. Would not God affirm the vows that we spoke that day and every day? We acted in faith that legally that was what we were supposed to do, and we did. It is not our fault or God's fault that my family acted the way they did.

We would like to get married again but I have been prevented by my family from getting a job (for fear that we would elope) until just recently.

By the way, if a county accidently lost your marriage record, would you no longer be married?

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rppearso said:

Some people here have the dilusion that denying there husband is not a big deal, wait until you find out that he has been getting what he needs from an escort (probably through financial records) and come back and tell me how innocent it is. People who burn with passion are not going to live the celibate life and they are not even called to in the first place.

are you kidding me? i mean yes it's a problem, but if you're actually justifying cheating with an escort to fulfill a man's need for sex, that's so sick and wrong. Any guy who actually legitmately plans to do that should just do his wife a favor and divorce her. women deserve better.

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