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If you're engaged, is it still fornicating?

Lisa0315

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EWWWWWW!!!! McCain looks like a wrinkled dog butt! Obama is a FINE looking man!

That's it! Let's only vote for attractive people! Forget the issues! Forget the party! Just vote for whomever is the cutest!

I think Richard Gere should be Obama's VP, except I am still mad at him for cheating on Cindy. Still, his was the first naked boy butt that I ever saw (that was not on one of my brothers). I was like 13 and it still brings a very pleasant memory when I think on it. Somehow, Richard Gere's behind and the wedding of Princess Diana are all wrapped up in my mind because the two events happened almost back to back for me.

This thread is now officially a train wreck, btw.

Lisa
 
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rppearso

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I forgive you and I appologize for my sarcastic remarks. I still maintain my phyilosophy as I did back it up but you are certianly free to disagree. Disagreeing on a biblical basis is not valid in my opinion but you can certianly disagree on a personal basis.
 
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BrotherAtArms

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Well said, and agreed. Thank you. Perhaps if we meet again in another discussion it will be a little less heated
 
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Lisa0315

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What a testimomy this thread has turned into!!! Praise God!

We have two women who are on opposite sides of the fence on an issue and we are giggling like school girls over cute boys together. We have two guys that were at each others throats on an issue, convicted, asking for forgiveness, and making friends.

Let us all thank God for the privilige of being brothers and sisters even if we do fuss and fight sometimes.

Lisa
 
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BrotherAtArms

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And your avatar is a picture of us all
 
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Lisa0315

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Wow....this must be one of the most de-railed threads in the history of CF

Yep, and you are the Engineer!

Lisa (Isn't that what they call the train guy? I can't remember)
 
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Bootstrap

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I just got engaged on Christmas

Well congratulations!


Biblically, I think marriage is the point at which you become "one flesh". Do you and your fiance distinguish being engaged from being married? If not, why not just be married?

On the other hand, I don't think the Bible clearly says that premarital sex is fornication, the word is not precisely defined in the Bible. And it would be difficult to prove conclusively that the Bible sees premarital sex as sexual immorality.

Jonathan
 
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BrotherAtArms

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I don't think it says the word 'before' but it does say 'outside' marriage. And if you haven't gotten married yet I'd assume it's 'outside.'
 
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BrotherAtArms

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God has specifically said, “Do not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14), and “Flee sexual immorality” (1 Corinthians 6:18). That is, do not have sex with someone who is not your spouse. Obedience requires that sex be reserved for one’s spouse.

When 1 Cor. 6:18 talks about fornication, we have to understand what fornication really means. Fornication is voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.
Or in other words, sex outside of the marital boundaries/marriage. Which also applies to 'before marriage' because it's not within marriage, but outside. That's why I believe that sex before marriage can be labeled as adultery also. Adultery being voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.
 
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Bootstrap

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God has specifically said, “Do not commit adultery (Exodus 20:14), and “Flee sexual immorality” (1 Corinthians 6:18).

That's scripture.

That is, do not have sex with someone who is not your spouse. Obedience requires that sex be reserved for one’s spouse.
That's interpretation, and your interpretation hinges on the meaning of the words "adultery" and "sexual immorality".

Before I go there, let me repeat that I agree with you that sex should be reserved for marriage, but I'm not at all sure that premarital sex would be considered "sexual immorality" and I'm pretty sure it would not be considered "adultery".

The verse I find most convincing on premarital sex is the "one flesh" verse in 1 Corinthians 6, which harken back to Genesis 2. Let me start with Genesis and work forward.

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Jesus refers back to this in Matthew 19:6 and Mark 10:8, using it to say that marriage is rooted in God's creation, where he made us to be joined together, male and female, man and wife, as one flesh, and that this union God has brought together should not be dissolved by mere humans (I'm not going to go into exceptions that allow divorce in this email., that's a different topic):

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In 1 Corinthians 6, Paul tells us that having sex with a prostitute also involves this "one flesh" relationship, which is why it is not allowed. In context, incidentally, this probably refers to temple prostitutes:

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This doesn't actually talk about premarital sex, but it does clearly indicate that having sex with someone who is not your wife is also a way to be "one flesh", a phrase used only for marriage in Genesis. And I think you can infer that Paul would probably have felt that premarital sex would be a "one flesh" thing.

In 1 Corinthians 7, Paul doesn't exactly condemn people for having premarital sex. He does encourage people who don't have self-control to get married, and he encourages married people to not deny each other in order to avoid sexual sin.

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Paul felt the urgency of the end of time coming, and that was his reason for not encouraging marriage, but one important reason for marriage is lack of self control that can lead to sexual sin:
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[SIZE=-0]But if they don’t have self-control, let them marry. For it’s better to marry than to burn.[/SIZE]
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I think the main thrust of these passages and others shows that the "one flesh" relationship was designed for marriage. But it's not clear to me that the word "fornication" includes premarital sex, and it's pretty clear to me that adultery does not - in English, Hebrew, or Greek, you have to be married to commit adultery (I'm not sure whether cheating on someone you are betrothed to was also considered adultery, my memory says it might have been, but I'm not checking that right now).
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When 1 Cor. 6:18 talks about fornication, we have to understand what fornication really means. Fornication is voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.
That's the English dictionary definition of the word fornication, which is actually derived from the Greek word "porneia", used in that verse. But you may notice that many translations now translate that "sexual immorality", because it's not at all clear that "porneia" means exactly the same thing as the modern English word "fornication". It is generally used to refer to prostitution in Greek, and in this context Paul has just been talking about prostitution, not premarital sex. It is also used to refer to other kinds of immoral sex, such as adultery, and to spiritual unfaithfulness to God. But I haven't yet found a passage where it clearly refers to premarital sex, my Greek dictionary does not clearly indicate that it does, except if betrothed people have sex with someone they are not betrothed to.

That's why I believe that sex before marriage can be labeled as adultery also. Adultery being voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.
By that definition, adultery can only happen if at least one of the partners is married, right?

Jonathan
 
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BrotherAtArms

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By that definition, adultery can only happen if at least one of the partners is married, right?
Not really. The last part of that definition says his or her lawful spouse which gives power to the scenario that if you sleep with the girl next door, she's not your lawful spouse, so... I think you get that.

I'm sticking with my view, because I don't think you can just sleep around before you get married. Before I got saved, I became one flesh with 2 girls that I'm not married to right now. When I got married, I became one flesh with my wife, but only after we got married, and I believe that if we had sex before we got married we would not have been in the right. She's not my wife 'yet', so it's still sex outside of marriage.

I've been well aware that porneia is actually known as [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]illicit sexual intercourse. Illicit being unlawful. I've totally convinced that sex before marriage is the same as sex outside of marriage.

I'll repeat 1 Corinthians 6:18 and add 19 and 20.

[/FONT] I'm totally convinced that scripture has taught me that sex, whether outside or 'before' is completely wrong.
But even standing outside of looking at scriptures, not even considering what the Bible has to say, I would still say it's not right to sleep with someone before you get married because of all the potential issues...
Pregnancy, STD's, the emotions that come with being 'one flesh' that you're not ready for, the feeling that once you get married, it's not as special as the first time. I believe for it to be done right, we should show patience and wait until you're actually married to have sex, because not only are you honoring each others bodies, but you're also honoring the Temple of God.

But that of course is my opinion, I'm sure you may disagree with it, many do, many don't, but that's scripture, I can't argue with that.


ADDITION:
I just found an interesting verse.

"I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him." (2 Corinthians 11:2)

What does that seem like it's encouraging?
 
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Bootstrap

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I'm sticking with my view, because I don't think you can just sleep around before you get married.

I don't either, but I would use different verses to support this than you do, because we disagree about the definitions of a few terms. I think I've explained how I understand these terms and why, so I won't bother repeating myself. Each of our views are now on the table.

My understanding is that the "one flesh" relationship is reserved for marriage, and that's the way I'm treating it. (It's not at all easy, but that's not because of the way the words are defined ...)

Jonathan
 
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BrotherAtArms

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Let me ask this, because I think I get what you're saying with the 'one flesh' deal, but I want to make absolutely sure what you mean. Because the way I understand it is that when you have sex, you've become one flesh with that person, and like I had said earlier is that I've done this with 3 girls total in my life.

What is your view on what it means to be 'one flesh' and can it happen outside of marriage? Not meaning can it as an 'allowable' term, but an 'is it possible' term.
 
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Bootstrap

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Let's start at the beginning. God made man and woman to be one flesh, and that's the basis for marriage. In this one flesh relationship, man and woman are together made in the image of God, male and female as separate expressions of the one image of God. When Adam sees Eve, he says, "You are flesh of my flesh, bone of my bones". I think "one flesh" goes beyond sexual intimacy, but sexual intimacy is certainly a big part of it.

That's the ideal God made for marriage. We haven't always lived that way. Paul explains that having sex with a temple prostitute is not OK because you are becoming "one flesh" with her. That doesn't mean you are then married to the prostitute, or that you have the full intimate relationship with the prostitute that God intended you to have with your wife. In the 1 Cor 6-7 passages, Paul's main concern is actually that we keep ourselves holy to God, as temples of the Holy Spirit, and we can't do that by becoming one flesh with temple prostitutes.

Some people have argued that this means you are married to anyone you have had sex with. The Bible doesn't seem to treat it that way. For instance, in Genesis 34, Shechem has sex with Dinah, but they are not treated as married after that point, and Shechem asks for Dinah's hand in marriage. So I don't think that just having sex with someone means you are married to them. I've heard this taught before, and I actually used to believe this for a while when I was much younger, but I no longer believe it.

On the other hand, in at least Genesis 24:67, the basic way to get married was to have sex:

Genesis 24:67 Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife. He loved her. Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.

The Bible doesn't tell us about marriage licenses and weddings and wedding dresses and rings. That's OK, we have our own culture and time, and we can do it our way, but when we deal with other cultures we have to be careful not to think of our own culture as normative. I think any time that a man and woman see themselves as married, then have sex, you've got a marriage. But I also think there is great wisdom in having documentation, witnesses, and the support of your community, all things that happen in our modern wedding ceremonies.

This raises interesting questions if you have a sexless marriage. In Catholic canon law, I think they distinguish a marriage that has been consummated from one that does not. And to Catholics, it's not the wedding ceremony that consummates a marriage. (I'm not Catholic, not terribly conversant with canon law, and may have munged this, but I think I got it right.)

Hope this helps,

Jonathan
 
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BrotherAtArms

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So I don't think that just having sex with someone means you are married to them.

I agree with that totally.
And I'm not sure, but it seems like we both agree that sex before or outside of marriage is wrong.
The thing though about when a man and woman decide in their heart that they're married and have sex is just too loose in my opinion. Especially in the society and culture we live in today, it's just too easy for a person to say "We're married in our hearts" but when they don't want to be with someone anymore they can very easily walk away because there's nothing there truly holding them together except that once upon a time they thought they were in love and became one flesh.
I guess that's why I support the marriage that most people go through today with the witnesses and all that you mentioned is because it's more binding. I know a few girls in my youth group that thought they would be marrying the guy they were with, so they slept with them and now they are no longer together... and one is left with kids and the other lost her baby who was born prematurely. So it's just another thing that discourages me from teaching that 'marriage in the heart' is OK. If things eventually work out in the end, great, but it's a big risk to take.
 
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