If Your Father...

[Randalll]

[font=Arial, verdana]If your father had children, then immediately placed them in foster homes without respect to how loving and wise the caretakers of those homes were, would you adore him for giving you life just the same?

What if your father then remained somewhere else until you came looking for him, until someone else told you who your father really was?

Upon finding where he lived, what if your father told you he always hoped you would show up, though would thenceforth speak with you only on occasion, and even then through other people? Additionally, you would need to pick from what each said to decide if it came from your father, using what you knew about him for reference.

What if he wrote a book of ideas about father child relationships that you were encouraged to follow, and he informed you that failure to do so would mean an end to your relationship?

What if you learned through the rules that not only would the relationship end, but you would eventually be killed for failing to obey? What if those rules were furthermore somewhat confusing, leading to widespread differences about their meaning, whereupon your requests for clarification were sometimes answered, oftentimes ignored?

What if you were told that some of your brothers and sisters were created specifically to be killed, most of them in fact, that only a few would be spared?

What if in this emotional discovery you asked your father why he would kill so many, why he would allow so much suffering during the foster care and beyond, and he said you had no right to ask? He said who are you to ask me anything!

Looking at the book more closely, trying to figure this all out, with your father unwilling to simply sit down next to you and provide an explanation, you find the purpose for being born was to adore and cherish your father, to give all glory to him, to deny your own life, devoting your days rather to praising him and teaching others to do the same. Doing otherwise means being killed. You might even be killed for adoring him for a while, then changing your mind.

He then says that anyone, even brothers and sisters who lived decent lives, paying their own bills, not stealing from or hurting others, they would also be killed unless choosing to live in the father’s home.

How would you feel about him not literally killing people as it turns out, but keeping them alive in dark caves, suffering with only enough food and water to remain alive, no one to speak with, no joy, no chance for redemption, forever?

Would you say, as he says, that he was a loving father, far more so than all of the loving fathers on earth?


Maybe you can help. Trying to figure out why God would force people into life on earth, then force them to play a game for all of their years, the winning of which leads to praising that God and giving up their spouses, the losing of which leads to an eternity in torment.

My relationship with God probably bites. It feels like the relationship a Jew might have endured with his Nazi concentration camp guard who brought him food and water.

John 7:66: From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go?" You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

That’s me, sort of. God has the words of eternal life, but he has something else. That something else comes in the form of what sounds like a promise of eternal terror to those who do not believe in the exact right way, come to Him as children with adoration and love, ready and willing to offer praise and thanksgiving, evidently finding no problem with all the confusing scriptures, the killing, the purpose for life, the forcing of souls into playing a game, the losing of which leads to a horror beyond horror.

You see, there COULD be three options, or four. One, loving God and going to Heaven. Two, hating God, doing evil, murdering others while on earth, things like that, then going to hell. Three, saying, ‘Did I ask to be born?’ then trying to be a decent human being during the years here, though failing to measure up to God’s standards, and hoping for if nothing else to cap the decades of questions, pain, loneliness, confusion, laughter, knowledge, all of it, at least get to become nothingness, no pain, no memories, zippo. The fourth would be never having been put through any of it at all. There can be no regret if there has never been a life, the molecules never forming a human. Yet God seems to say, come to me, play by my rules, do works in order to win rewards (yes, He does), all of which will lead to a forever where you can praise me more, or go to hell.

So if you just want to live out the long years, hope for the best with God, not commit suicide since that might be worse than staying around, be a decent person, mind your own business and essentially get by, that doesn’t cut it. Ironically, the whole thing is set up to be brutal from the start. The mere act of walking across the lawn virtually guarantees the killing of little critters since they are everywhere. Walking down the sidewalk on a summer day requires moving around to avoid stepping on ants that are just trying to be good little workers, doing in fact what God says we ought to emulate. The whole thing is messed up, evidently due to the fall. But is the big plan really all that much better?

God tells us (John 3:16) how wonderfully loving He is for sending His only begotten Son to die on the cross. And Christians across the globe swoon in awe at the gesture. Yet to me it seems far easier to send someone to die who will immediately be with you again right after dying than what so many human fathers do sending their sons off to war to protect the homeland, than even sending them out into the world where it is filled with lies and traps. God knew Jesus would fall into none of the errors. Jesus would never know the regret of loss because of His own sin, a burden so painful that days would be needed to write it all out. Yes, He died on that cross. But so did others before and after. Yet none of them had the assurance, the confidence, the mission, the status, the power, the complete understanding of what would follow. To be sure, it is something to die on the cross for others. But to say that it was more painful for God than what human parents go through just rings the teeniest bit hollow.

Not only that, God knew Jesus would die on the cross before Adam was created. In other words, God put into motion the very things that would cause Jesus to die, all before creating the humans that would need that death. But wait, it gets weirder. God IS Jesus, right? So then no way did He even give up His only begotten Son, but rather gave Himself up for a while, a day actually.

This has all been inside me and building for a few years now, ever since not long after digging into scripture with serious questions, with a serious hope to find some purpose, find a relationship with the living God. What I found out doesn’t seem all that encouraging.

Do I find within myself after all of the years, all of the studies, all of the questions any affection for this God, a heart-felt fondness for His friendship? Difficult to say. There is no denying the anger, the resentment, frustration, the questioning of any supreme being that forces souls into a life of torment, then sends them off to an eternity of suffering – whether that includes me or not. It keeps me curious why so many have this amazing and seemingly unquestioning adoration for that Father.

I hold onto a faint hope that God will be more loving, more understanding, more interesting than He seems to me, that he will forgive me these awful questions and missing adoration. But we don’t know that, except by those words in that book. And they don’t seem all that promising.

One of the few aspects of the searches inside my heart that lends me any hope is the understanding that I do love justice and do love tenderness and mercy, truth, honor, compassion. If per chance the kinship I feel with these conditions means that I love those parts of the Creator and that He may in turn be loving and accepting me, then maybe there exists some hope for me, maybe.

My questions are, why would God do this to people? Why would anyone be interested in an eternity under those conditions? How is it that so many line up and say, thank you, Jesus? Are they hearing a voice, knowing the call of their Shepard that eludes me, meaning He is possibly not MY shepard? God created vessels for destruction, and even told the ones who were created for life not to ask the potter why they were shaped in such a fashion. I want a father who walks and talks with me, who sits down and answers the tough questions, who doesn’t send those who don’t make the grade into an eternity of pain. Am I asking too much? Evidently so. Why do I want things God says I have no right to ask for?

A confused human.
[/font]

 

[Riddick]

You have the right to ask for anything you want. God doesn't put limits on what you ask for. Doesn't necessarily mean he will provide you a Lamborghini, however.

 

[seebs]

I think that, if you remove the Calvinism from this, you'll find it a lot more comprehensible.

 

[Randalll]

I think that, if you remove the Calvinism from this, you'll find it a lot more comprehensible.

That's it?

I ask in effect if God is a confusing, selfish, killing, praise-craving sort of a creepy thing, and the response is that I sound like a Calvinist who has been praying for expensive Italian sports cars?

Maybe a teeny bit of amplification would help me understand how you and the other respondent arrived at those conconclusion.

 

[seebs]

That's it?

I ask in effect if God is a confusing, selfish, killing, praise-craving sort of a creepy thing, and the response is that I sound like a Calvinist who has been praying for expensive Italian sports cars?

Maybe a teeny bit of amplification would help me understand how you and the other respondent arrived at those conconclusion.

When you said "What if you were told that some of your brothers and sisters were created specifically to be killed", you clearly indicated a Calvinist teaching rejected by many, perhaps most, Christians. Many of your most serious concerns will go away if you remove the Calvinist theology from the equation.

 

[Randalll]

When you said "What if you were told that some of your brothers and sisters were created specifically to be killed", you clearly indicated a Calvinist teaching rejected by many, perhaps most, Christians. Many of your most serious concerns will go away if you remove the Calvinist theology from the equation.

The essay says wayyyyyy more than just that. Removing that one portion would in now way alter the theme. Sorry it served as an obstruction to you. I do seem to recall the phrase "created for destruction" being in scripture, though don't need that to make the point.

 

[seebs]

The essay says wayyyyyy more than just that. Removing that one portion would in now way alter the theme. Sorry it served as an obstruction to you. I do seem to recall the phrase "created for destruction" being in scripture, though don't need that to make the point.

Well, it's the most egregious thing pointed to.

Anyway, what you've got here can be understood two ways.

One, it could be an argument against "Christianity". Two, it could be an argument, within Christianity, against certain doctrines that are held by some Christians and not by others.

I tend to see it as the latter. You have summarized elegantly the reasons for which many theologians reject some of the positions you're attacking.

But... Okay, so we drop those positions unless someone feels like offering counterarguments. What of it?

 

[Randalll]

But... Okay, so we drop those positions unless someone feels like offering counterarguments. What of it?

Well, if your father acted that way, would you want him as a father? Or, if a woman, would you want him as a husband? Why does He seem in many ways like a jerk to me, while I look all around and see people praising and loving that God? What are they seeing that I miss, or vice versa?

 

[seebs]

Well, if your father acted that way, would you want him as a father? Or, if a woman, would you want him as a husband? Why does He seem in many ways like a jerk to me, while I look all around and see people praising and loving that God? What are they seeing that I miss, or vice versa?

I dunno. But many Christians would feel the same way about such a God, and don't believe those claims about God.

How would I feel about a father who beat me regularly? I'd probably have very strong negative feelings about him. Why, then, do I express fond recollections of my father? Because he didn't beat me.

 

[Ryft]

Well, if your father acted that way, would you want him as a father? Or, if a woman, would you want him as a husband? Why does He seem in many ways like a jerk to me, while I look all around and see people praising and loving that God? What are they seeing that I miss, or vice versa?

[align=justify]You know, initially I wanted to say that your analogy (or rather its recurring theme) was all wrong, that it was riddled with non-sequiturs and categorical errors throughout, beginning with the first line... but then I realized, "Perhaps herein lies the very point." Instead of being 'all wrong', it's actually 'all right'—that is, it's an extremely accurate picture of your view and that is the source of the angst, confusion, and sense of loss you feel. And I realized that perhaps there is a phenomenological approach to this that could ultimately bring to light exactly what thoughts and ideas you have, where they came from, and why you have them—but this time in less 'analogous' terms. If God truly was like what your analogy portrayed, I don't see how he could be worthy of any adoration, much less praise or glory. However, God is not like that. Not even close.

Of course, it's all well and good to say that, and surely you are expecting nothing less than that sort of approach, but what sort of good does that do you, really? There is a lot more going on here than any pat answer or vacuous rote can affect (as if it ever could), and I feel incredibly drawn by God towards you and your acute internal turmoil. But I am not sure this forum is all that appropriate for how personal this issue is and how involved a dialogue would become. What I am wondering is whether I can leave the decision ultimately up to you: I am eager yet humbled to talk to you about these things, but whether we utilize this public thread and create innumerable posts or talk to each other via email—or talk at all—I leave it up to you.

P.S. - I was not raised in a Christian home, so it is not as though I'm unfamiliar with what you are going through. I am an atheist-turned-Christian, and I've been where you are.[/align]

 

[Randalll]

[align=justify]...
P.S. - I was not raised in a Christian home, so it is not as though I'm unfamiliar with what you are going through. I am an atheist-turned-Christian, and I've been where you are.[/align]

Talking in the forum I think is preferable for NOW because of how useful this discussion might be to others. Alone, I am the only one who might benefit. Beyond that, others can contribute. I am not opposed to private counsel, though just wish for now to continue in the forum. That way my sometimes time consuming responses at least carry father.

You should be clear first though, that I am not an atheist, not even an agnostic. Maybe you already realize that. I asked Jesus into my heart and for forgiveness many years ago (and many times since). Whether I should call myself a Christian or not is debatable, of course.

I did witness and take part in numerous changes to my life after asking for God's presence, healing, counsel, teaching and governance. Then again, life would have gone through numerous changes no matter what. So, it remains as always to delineate what parts were due to any so-called relationship with God and which would have occurred anyway.

At any rate, I have attended hundreds of Bible studies and church services, listened to maybe a thousand more on the radio, read most of the New Testament in English and Spanish, and most of the Old Testament. I long ago completed the book Disappointment with God, and have probably reached the point of being able to pen my own.

It is quite unclear whether there is hope for me with this attitude, though I do hold out some faith that any God capable of creating this much will possibly reach down and rescue me from this weird place. Still, I do wonder what God has done that makes so many people want to lift up their hands and rejoice. Of course it's better than the alternative. But who asked to be born and therefore need to choose?

And WHY does anybody want to go to a place where the forever assignment is to praise a God who evidently wants a lot of praise?

Yes, I realize they will say things like God provided a job, a spouse, a place to live. Yet God does not actually say that He intends to provide jobs or spouses. And plenty of people are divorced from someone they claimed had been God's chosen. I even met a guy who says God brought him his first wife so they could create his daughter, that now he had brought his second wife. It doesn't make sense, especially in light of Corinthians 7:39, wherein widows are instructed to find any mate they so choose. People go on praying for a mate just the same.

The problem is that people who are not Christians also secure great jobs and spouses and homes. Life goes on. Even Jesus says that it rains on the just and the unjust. So I surmise the things people give God credit for were going to happen anyway. We certainly do not see a single person on earth with even the faith of a mustard seed, that is according to the words of Jesus. Because we simply do not see any mountains moving into the ocean or really any other supernatural or scientifically impossible acts. Okay, I will grant that many people have great faith. None of them are performing any of the acts that Jesus said would be easy with but the faith of a mustard seed.

Don't get me wrong. God can have all the credit if He wants for precipitating some change in my life or the lives of others. But who can tell? He does not make it very clear who brought about the changes. How does one know, by feelings? I FEEL the spirtit telling me to do thisi? Well, other people have feelings too.

Either way, even a human father provides food and shelter for his children, and in a far more connecting manner, I might add. In other words, though God tells people how He is so much a better father than human fathers, in terms of communicating, being there, explaining life, paying bills and more, the human fathers seem a far greater choice to me.

So, what it comes down to is God TALKING about how loving He is, though not really showing so much of that. Yes, there is the salvation for the few who "endure until the end." But God created everyone, and forced 'em to compete for the prize, reserving fire for those who don't measure up.

Back to my question: Why are people so emotionally gah gah over Jesus, who evidently is God and thereby is not the only son of God who died for people He forced into living?

 

[seebs]

Hmm. You need to read more C. S. Lewis, I think. The entire reward/punishment model of Christianity is, well, unpersuasive. Also, read lots of Real Live Preacher; I think he's got answers to your questions.

I'm sort of afraid to try to step in when there are people so much better than me at it, but...

You are apparently one of the people who will experience doubts and questions and skepticism. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. The question is, what will you make of this? If this makes you more compassionate towards others who have doubts, then perhaps it's useful. You may not have needed much help on that; many do.

I think I do understand your position. I guess... My resolution of this question was to recognize that a lot of Christians were making claims about God that appeared to be false, but that this was not enough to falsify my own experience.

So, in the end, I rejected some claims people made about God, but continued to believe in God. Works well enough for me.

 

[Joe Atheist]

Many of your most serious concerns will go away if you remove the Calvinist theology from the equation.

In fact... ALL of your concerns will go away if you remove the Christian theology from the equation

 

[jon1101]

Randalll, as I'm sure some people around here remember, I went through a very similar set of doubts concerning God and Christian theology. I'd say that now, after sorting through a lot of it of it, I have a healthier but quite different faith. One thing to consider is that, while I know many people consider their dogmas to be tantamount to the thoughts of God himself, many of the theologies that seem to give you trouble are hotly debated, have been for many centuries, and really should not be thought of as essential to Christianity. I personally have shed the Calvinistic dogma taught by the Church I grew up in and have embraced something closer to universalism, though I certainly don't absolutely know all the complexities of salvation. No one does.

A bad idea is to toss out Christianity as a whole due to some troubling theology. It was very unpleasant for me to go through and was less rational than I told myself it was at the time. Remember that Jesus said Christianity can be summed up as loving God and loving others. Concocting precise formulae explaining how the True Christians get to heaven seems to miss the point.

-Jon

 

[Ryft]

[align=justify]No, no, I realize you aren't an atheist. Even without an icon, it was evident from the way you expressed yourself. The only thing I intended with my post script was the assurance that I'm not some kind of Jesus Freak raised my whole life in a Christian home who probably would not be familiar with the angst and skepticism of someone in your position. As an atheist-turned-Christian, I've had experience with the questions and concerns you expressed (both prior to and after conversion, interestingly). I've been there, I've felt that. I know what it's like. In fact, the way you express yourself and the concerns you have, it's almost too familiar. It identifies almost exactly with what I was writing in my journal and yelling at God two years ago.

How is it that some people are so ecstatic about God? The first thing that pops into my mind is a caveat, and maybe an unnecessary one. That is, some people are consummate actors. Now maybe I'll catch some flack from others for stating such a thing, but it's a simple fact. Of course, it's rather difficult to discern when someone's apparent ecstacy is an act or not, but there are circumstances when it is. I don't intend this to encourage uncharitable cynicism with respect to anyone that seems in love with God; rather, it's intended to give your own feelings and experiences a more proper perspective—of all the people you meet that appear 'gah gah over Jesus', understand that some (I suspect more than just 'some') of them are trying to feel the part by acting the part, so you are not as outnumbered as you might think. A friend of mine was like this. To anyone else, it would seem that he was just head-over-heels in love with God, full of spiritual joy and really close to God. But I knew him on a personal level, I knew who he was at home, I knew how very differently he expressed himself when it was just me and him. I was there to witness times when he would start uttering rote as some kind of mantra he hoped would dispel his depressions. But even during those times he felt abandoned by God, at church he was all smiles and all praise and gah-gah over Jesus and no one was the wiser. Except me. And himself. It was an act. He was trying to feel the part by acting the part.

Be that as it may, that still leaves those for whom it is not an act. What about them? And what about you?

I have a couple of thoughts on that.

One thing that comes to mind is 'relationships', a term that describes a state of orientation and connectedness not only between humans but also between humans and God. You are likely aware of this, in at least a cognitive sense (despite your lack of sensing it emotionally). The state of any relationship and its success is related to and determined by how one approaches and engages himself in that relationship. Again, something you are aware of. A relationship in which the primary concern for one party is his own interests is self-centered and will not succeed. A relationship wherein the primary concern of both parties is for their own interests will fail even more quickly. Rather, a healthy relationship is one wherein the concern of both is primarily for the other. Our interests are met because the primary concern of the other is for that—she's concerned primarily with my interests, and I am primarily concerned with hers. By way of application, the Christian's primary concern is not for her own interests but rather God's interests, and God's primary concern is for hers. Sometimes people feel abandoned by God because they wanted it their way and God said, "Okay." As C. S. Lewis once put it (and I paraphrase here), there are only two kinds of people in the world: those who say to God, Thy will be done, and those to whom God says, Thy will be done.

I don't intend to offend you, and I hope I haven't. I'm certainly not trying to suggest anything. But I would insist that it's a good place to at least begin: take an open and honest look at your relationship with God. How would your relationship with God be described? I don't think you should address God's side of the issue, of course—victimizing ourselves by levelling blame is too easy and doesn't enlighten, and we are really quite prone to it. Rather, insight is derived by openly and honestly examining yourself. How would your relationship with God be described? What are his interests and in what ways do you meet them? If someone asked you to tell them who God is and what he's like, how would you answer? Could you? How much time do you spend with him? I don't think you should answer in here; I don't think you should answer me at all. Personally, I don't want the answers. Seriously. It's just something to think about.

The other, more important thing that comes to mind is that... sometimes people feel abandoned by God because, in a sense, he has abandoned them. At least, for a time and for a purpose. I remember well the time he seemed to have abandoned me. And I remember when he seemed to have abandoned others, such as Job for example. But in that case, and in my case, there was a purpose in it. Yes, I felt abandoned because, for all intents and purposes, he abandoned me. But now, looking back (isn't that the way of hindsight?), I totally understand why he did what he did, and just how much I learned from it—extremely important and life-altering things. This understanding helps me now but it certainly didn't help me then. Back then I didn't understand at all, and the anger and anguish I felt at the time was very intense. What purpose could he possibly have? What lessons could I possibly learn from this? It seemed senseless. But a couple of years down the road, I look back now and I totally get it. I know exactly what I went through and why I went through it. And I realized that sometimes God abandons people, sometimes because he needs to (and other times because we've essentially asked him to leave).

What does this mean for you? I'm not sure. That's for you to think about. I'm just putting it out there, that maybe you feel abandoned because you are. And maybe it's not making any sense right now, but ironically that's an intended part of the experience—you're supposed to feel that. I don't want to hand out answers. I want to offer some ideas and suggestions and act as a sounding board, but ultimately I want to leave it up to you... because this isn't about you and I. It's about you and God, and it's between you and him. This is stuff that you take inside, because it's personal. And if you're going to get answers, they won't be mine. When it comes down to the reality of your experience, it should remain between you and God. But I don't mind making suggestions and tossing ideas out there, or acting as a sounding board for ideas or questions of your own. Sometimes under the weight of emotional angst or turmoil, our thinking gets stuck in a rut and we find our thoughts circumnavigating fruitless circles, and it can take the simplest fresh suggestion or idea from someone else that catalyzes our thoughts into a new direction that actually begins to shed some light and bring answers.

What about those answers? And those thoughts, feelings, etc? Are they from God or are they merely our own? I think the very question implies a disparity where none exists.[/align]

 

[Randalll]

Hmmm, I'm surprised that more people in a giant forum like this did not jump into the topic. If nothing else, it stands as a rarely presented notion, at least in my experience. Profound implications for the Christian/God/non-Christian dynamic, and stuff I hope to get answers for soon if not before dying.

Jon, I might be happy to discount precise theology. But then there's that Bible. It says plenty of things that I don't get to just discard based on my desires.

Joe, your idea has some appealing aspects to it, yet atheism simply makes zero sense to me. God says every single person ever created knows in his heart that God did the creating. For me, that is so basic as to be a part of my every fiber. Therefore, I can't even comprehend someone who claims to not even believe in the God that I am unsure whether I like all that much.

Ryft, I believe your friend probably does represent many in the church. I know he and others in the same boat do not explain away the whole gah gah thing though. Still, it might at least help those like me to not feel so alone and furthermore conceivably precipitate more relevant discussions and sermons on the most important topic to our hearts if the actors would just come out and express the truth in the church.

Okay, that would help get some messages directed toward the doubters and the questioners. It wouldn't give me much on figuring out why the others are evidently in love with a killing, torturing, largely silent God. I'll read the rest of your post and see what else it says to me.