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If your elect....

skeptic7

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If your elect, and God chose you to enter his kindom, why would you still sin? or more or less, why would God "let" you sin, but sometimes "make" you do enough good to be saved?

Sorry if this is a dumb, question but Calvinism always has intrigued me, and its full of misunderstanding as i have found out spread by many people who don't like it.

thanks,


-Kyle
 

ksen

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skeptic7 said:
If your elect, and God chose you to enter his kindom, why would you still sin? or more or less, why would God "let" you sin, but sometimes "make" you do enough good to be saved?
Until He comes back and we are changed we are still in corruptible bodies. Although the pattern "should" be one of being more and more conformed to the image of Jesus.

Um, God doesn't make us "do" anything good to be saved?

Sorry if this is a dumb, question but Calvinism always has intrigued me, and its full of misunderstanding as i have found out spread by many people who don't like it.

thanks,

-Kyle
It's not a dumb question. Thanks for recognizing that people mischaracterize Calvinism and then argue against their mischaracterization. I appreciate that you are taking the time to ask.
 
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servant4ever

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Hello, I got another question for Calvinists that kinda goes along these lines... If God selects people before the beginning of the Creation, why did He even have us go through the world, why didn't He just create the "elected" people and place them in heaven, rather than creating people who will be in hell, no matter what. To me, that is one of the main problems I have with Calvinism (not trying to start a debate here)

servant4ever
 
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Abruer17

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servant4ever: Answer to the first question, through his word he was pleased to spread the gospel. By hearing this is how he wanted his kids to come. Romans 10:17 speaks of this:
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

This is why so many of the Reformed pastors of the ages stressed the teaching of God's word and not ploys or things such as that.
 
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theseed

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Skeptic7 said:
If your elect, and God chose you to enter his kindom, why would you still sin? or more or less, why would God "let" you sin, but sometimes "make" you do enough good to be saved?

It's not about how much good you do, but about the atonment of Christ. That is what is meant by "unconditional election" in the Calvnist TULIP acronymn. Election is not conditions on our works, including faith.
 
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theseed

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servant4ever said:
Hello, I got another question for Calvinists that kinda goes along these lines... If God selects people before the beginning of the Creation, why did He even have us go through the world, why didn't He just create the "elected" people and place them in heaven, rather than creating people who will be in hell, no matter what. To me, that is one of the main problems I have with Calvinism (not trying to start a debate here)

servant4ever
God does all things for his glory. We were created for his pleasure. Also, God does not turn away anybody, so it is moot to say, "no matter what". Calvinist argue that those who seek God done so by God's will alone. Man's will does not seek God, but sin, unless God renews aright Spirit within him and creates a clean heart (Ps. 51.10f)
 
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servant4ever

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I am still confused... Why would God create people to reject Christ? Why didn't He just create all the "elected" and thus everybody would be in Heaven because everyone would place their faith in Christ and hell would only be reserved for satan and his angels.

servant4ever
 
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theseed

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servant4ever said:
But doesn't God turn away people if He only elects certain people and not the rest?

servant4ever
No, that logic does not make sense, imo, and Scripture does not teach this.

God turns no one away that seeks him
 
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theseed

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servant4ever said:
I am still confused... Why would God create people to reject Christ? Why didn't He just create all the "elected" and thus everybody would be in Heaven because everyone would place their faith in Christ and hell would only be reserved for satan and his angels.

servant4ever
All men were predestined for hell before God elected them, he saw the world as guilty of sin, but decided to pardon some, and not others.
 
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theseed

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Servant4ever, am I making any sense? The elect are those who believe, or the "whosoever wills"

Know this, election is not a Calvnist belief, it is clearly in The Bible. The difference lies in what Calvnists vs others believe about God's election.
 
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servant4ever

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But, don't Calvinists believe that the "elect" are those individuals He selects before the earth? With my understanding, when a Calvinist says "elect," that means that a person is selected by God to be a Christian. That's why I was asking those questions with that definition of "elect"

servant4ever
 
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theseed

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servant4ever said:
But, don't Calvinists believe that the "elect" are those individuals He selects before the earth? With my understanding, when a Calvinist says "elect," that means that a person is selected by God to be a Christian. That's why I was asking those questions with that definition of "elect"

servant4ever
But, don't Calvinists believe that the "elect" are those individuals He selects before the earth?

Actually, there are varying views on how God elects before the earth.

There is a discusion about it in this forum
 
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servant4ever

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OK, you are probably going to be really frustrated with me :) But, what stance does the Calvinists officially believe? I guess I am Arminian in belief for election.

I am just trying to get a grasp of what some brothers and sisters in Christ believe :)

servant4ever
 
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MKalashnikov

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Hello, I got another question for Calvinists that kinda goes along these lines... If God selects people before the beginning of the Creation, why did He even have us go through the world, why didn't He just create the "elected" people and place them in heaven, rather than creating people who will be in hell, no matter what. To me, that is one of the main problems I have with Calvinism (not trying to start a debate here)

servant4ever

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be!

Rom 9:15 For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of God, the One showing mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardens.

Rom 9:19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?

Rom 9:20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me this way?

Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;

Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;

Rom 9:24 whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?

 
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MKalashnikov

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OK, you are probably going to be really frustrated with me :) But, what stance does the Calvinists officially believe? I guess I am Arminian in belief for election.

I am just trying to get a grasp of what some brothers and sisters in Christ believe :)

servant4ever

A Calvinist is one who holds to the Biblical Doctrines of Grace.

Here is a much more simple and eloquent presentation than I could possibly accomplish.

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/

According to Calvinism:

Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

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Total Depravity (Total Inability)

Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).

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Unconditional Election

Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.

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Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).

This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!

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Irresistible Grace

The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37). Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44), and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14). What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit (I Peter 5:10)!

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Perseverance of the Saints

Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.


Here are two other links that go into this subject in much more detail:

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html?mainframe=5Points_Dabney.html
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm
 
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theseed

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servant4ever said:
OK, you are probably going to be really frustrated with me :) But, what stance does the Calvinists officially believe? I guess I am Arminian in belief for election.

I am just trying to get a grasp of what some brothers and sisters in Christ believe :)

servant4ever
All Calvinists officially believe the TULIP doctrine, with the exception of limited atonement, or the meaning of atonement.

Calvinist beleive that man in no way can seek or believe in God part from the holy Spirit. Actually, Arminiast beleive this too. The difference is that Calvinist believe that since we are dead in our trespasses of sin, and blind to the light of Christ, we don't seek or beleive Christ. But when the Holy Spirit regenerates the believer, then the elect does.

Those that are not elected don't seek God because they chose not too; they are enslaved to thier sinful nature.

Arminiast beleive that the elect are chosen based on thier whether thye chose God, iow, they have it backwards. They have election to salvation based on a chose men make, where as Calvinist have it based on God's choice alone.
 
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