If you turn people off from God, whose holds the responsibility?

[Beanieboy]

If you ask a lot of people why they aren't Christian, many will say, "I don't have a problem with Christ. I have a problem with his followers."

Let me give you a few anecdotes.

One "christian" on another site told me that the most loving thing who could do (because I am gay) is hate me. If he loved me, he would be hand holding my way to hell. The fact that I am Buddhist, not really Christian seemed to be second to the importance of my sexual orientation.

Another, following Bob Enyart, said that Jesus mocked people, called them dogs, swine, and even called his disciple Satan, so he could call me the most derogatory names imaginable, again, as a sign of his love. The moderators said that to chastize him was the same as condoning homosexuality.

Another quoted Psalms 58:10
The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
She then told me that she couldn't wait to bathe her feet in my shed blood at Judgement.

Another time she quoted Romans 12:9
Your love must be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.
Therefore, she abhored me, because I was evil.
So, I went and read Romans 12:

be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[e] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Finally, in frustration, someone yelled, "WHY WON'T YOU CONVERT??"
I said, "This is between me and God, not me and you. But I look at your fruit. It is angry, rude, arrogant, crass, vengeful, unmerciful, unkind, not gentle, and you seem to look forward to my eternal destruction, rather than want me to be saved. So, in good conscience, I can't convert. I don't want to become like anyone of you."

They answered, "Well, fine. But that isn't good enough for God."

What do you think? If someone is being a terrible witness, and turning people off or away from God with a message of hate, or painting God as an ogre that would as soon kill you as look at you, who has the responsibility of rejecting God? The unsaved, or the christian?

 

[FaithLikeARock]

It falls on the follower. I will find the verse, but I know it also says that those who turn people away from the eyes of God will be punished on judgment day. It doesn't define these people are non-Christians or even as PURPOSELY turning people away. It just says people who turn others away from God. So unless you turn people away by telling the truth, it's definitely a sin to hate, exaggerate and fear monger to try to force people to convert and it ends up making them LESS likely to turn to it.

And I apologize on behalf of all those people for you Beanieboy. You're a wonderful person and I hope you don't change despite your religion. If you do become Christian, just imagine you become a Rob Bell or Pam Stenzel Christian.

 

[Beanieboy]

It falls on the follower. I will find the verse, but I know it also says that those who turn people away from the eyes of God will be punished on judgment day. It doesn't define these people are non-Christians or even as PURPOSELY turning people away. It just says people who turn others away from God. So unless you turn people away by telling the truth, it's definitely a sin to hate, exaggerate and fear monger to try to force people to convert and it ends up making them LESS likely to turn to it.

And I apologize on behalf of all those people for you Beanieboy. You're a wonderful person and I hope you don't change despite your religion. If you do become Christian, just imagine you become a Rob Bell or Pam Stenzel Christian.

Thanks for the apology. It is much appreciated, but unnecessary. Buddhism teaches (as does Christianity) to be thankful in all things. I felt spiritually beat up a lot (I was there for about 3 years. I finally told them that if I were to ever convert, I would be far harsher about their arrogance and anti-Christian behavior than I was then.)

They could be rude. I could not be rude in return, lest I be chastized by the Mods. I had to return curse with blessing. Buddhism teaches that you worst enemy is your best teacher, and that was true. I learned how to be gentle, I learned how to be forgiving. I learned how to meditate, and take my anger and turn it into love, and prayer for their soul and heart. And surprisingly, I felt, not hurt, but compassion. Anyone who claims to have Jesus in their heart, but is full of so much anger, is probably full of a lot of hurt. It made me grow.

Bob Bell (Blowhorn Guy) has a cool message, and I think that some of us stray from that path, and simply find another path to God. I didn't realize that praying to be merciful, and loving, and patient, is like going to a gym, and working until you feel the burn, but it pays off.

I certainly don't take all Christians to be like that, but so many of the vocal ones (Buchannon, Roberton, Falwell, Phelps) paint Christianity as a religion of cruelty, and a really poor representation of my understanding of Jesus and God.

 

[Aeris]

If you ask a lot of people why they aren't Christian, many will say, "I don't have a problem with Christ. I have a problem with his followers."

Let me give you a few anecdotes.

One "christian" on another site told me that the most loving thing who could do (because I am gay) is hate me. If he loved me, he would be hand holding my way to hell. The fact that I am Buddhist, not really Christian seemed to be second to the importance of my sexual orientation.

Another, following Bob Enyart, said that Jesus mocked people, called them dogs, swine, and even called his disciple Satan, so he could call me the most derogatory names imaginable, again, as a sign of his love. *The moderators said that to chastize him was the same as condoning homosexuality.

Another quoted Psalms 58:10
The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
She then told me that she couldn't wait to bathe her feet in my shed blood at Judgement.

Another time she quoted Romans 12:9
Your love must be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.
Therefore, she abhored me, because I was evil.
So, I went and read Romans 12:


Finally, in frustration, someone yelled, "WHY WON'T YOU CONVERT??"
I said, "This is between me and God, not me and you. But I look at your fruit. It is angry, rude, arrogant, crass, vengeful, unmerciful, unkind, not gentle, and you seem to look forward to my eternal destruction, rather than want me to be saved. So, in good conscience, I can't convert. I don't want to become like anyone of you."

They answered, "Well, fine. But that isn't good enough for God."

What do you think? If someone is being a terrible witness, and turning people off or away from God with a message of hate, or painting God as an ogre that would as soon kill you as look at you, who has the responsibility of rejecting God? The unsaved, or the christian?

That so horrible that people actually believe things like that, and think that treating people like that will make them convert. I think many people would be more likely to convert if they showed them love and understanding, its what Jesus did. *Was this here or at a different forum? Dont they realize that not doing anything is condoning many more sins which are worse? I swear I will never understand how people can believe this stuff, or think that god is that horrible and still worship him.

 

[Beanieboy]

That so horrible that people actually believe things like that, and think that treating people like that will make them convert. I think many people would be more likely to convert if they showed them love and understanding, its what Jesus did. *Was this here or at a different forum? Dont they realize that not doing anything is condoning many more sins which are worse? I swear I will never understand how people can believe this stuff, or think that god is that horrible and still worship him.

It was another site. A few of them creeped over here, and when they started to use the new "f" word, they argued their lame "not using such slurs is the same as condoning homosexuality". They were quickly banned. The mods here don't condone abusive behavior.

It seems to me, from a Buddhist POV, that a person who is like that, who is so angry, bitter, and full of hatred of others, would be even harder to convert than a nonChristian, because they believe they are. 1 John 4:7-8 says differently.

The most curious thing to me was that they seemed obsessed by homosexuality. The fact that I do not call Jesus my savior was minor. In other words, if I magically turned into a heterosexual, I would be saved, in their eyes, or at least that was what they implied. They also implied that I should repent, leave my "lifestyle", and then ask Jesus into my heart. Why would I need Jesus if I could do that on my own?

 

[Aeris]

It was another site. A few of them creeped over here, and when they started to use the new "f" word, they argued their lame "not using such slurs is the same as condoning homosexuality". They were quickly banned. The mods here don't condone abusive behavior.

It seems to me, from a Buddhist POV, that a person who is like that, who is so angry, bitter, and full of hatred of others, would be even harder to convert than a nonChristian, because they believe they are. 1 John 4:7-8 says differently.

The most curious thing to me was that they seemed obsessed by homosexuality. The fact that I do not call Jesus my savior was minor. In other words, if I magically turned into a heterosexual, I would be saved, in their eyes, or at least that was what they implied. They also implied that I should repent, leave my "lifestyle", and then ask Jesus into my heart. Why would I need Jesus if I could do that on my own?

Thats good that it wasnt here, but still not good that it happens at all. I also find it weird that they focus on homosexuality more than other sins, especially since homosexuality really doesnt have any negative effects like other more wide spread sins such a lying, stealing, adultry, jealousy etc. Lol to your last point

 

[Beanieboy]

What about people like Pat Roberton? He has a huge following, blames gays for hurricanes, 9/11, etc. and claims they are the enemies of God. And he broadcasts this kind of stuff.

Someone once asked me how I felt about Fred Phelps. I said, "I am thankful for him. I don't like his hate. I think he is incredibly harmful spiritually and emotionally to families in mourning. However, I suppose that his intense hatred, if anything, makes people sympathetic to gay people. They imagine themselves a parent or friend or sibbling with a jerk outside the funeral home with a blowhorn telling them that the deceased is burning in hell, that God hates them, and you can't help but feel compassion for those who are his targets, and their families."

 

[Verv]

I think definitely it is the sole responsibility of the adult. That is it.

Whose else would it be?

It is your choice and your choice alone to make.

 

[Beanieboy]

I think definitely it is the sole responsibility of the adult. That is it.

Whose else would it be?

It is your choice and your choice alone to make.

What is God's response to those whom have turned others off or away, yet claim to be followers?

 

[dlamberth]

What do you think? If someone is being a terrible witness, and turning people off or away from God with a message of hate, or painting God as an ogre that would as soon kill you as look at you, who has the responsibility of rejecting God? The unsaved, or the christian?

You can tell the level of spiritual teachings that a teacher gives by looking at the followers of that teacher.

I don't think very many Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. That's harsh, I know, but it's what I truly believe. But their actions sometimes are not at all Christ like. So that tells me that either Christ was a lousy teacher, or who ever is teaching His teachings is doing a lousy job of it.

It's the Church I blame. The teachings of the Church, IMHO, clearly do not match up with the teachings of Jesus Christ. And we often see the results of that truth in it's followers.

I’ve seen some really terrible acts from Christians that have told me that if that’s what they learn from Christianity, there’s no way I want to be like them. So I’m not.


.

 

[Autumnleaf]

People choose what they believe. God makes his own case. People who choose other than God do so of their own free will and bear the consequence of their choice.

 

[OllieFranz]

People choose what they believe. God makes his own case. People who choose other than God do so of their own free will and bear the consequence of their choice.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:13-14
​

And if the only preacher they have heard is preaching hatred toward them instead of hope? While Christians don't bear the responsibility if an honest attempt of loving evangelism goes unheeded, that does not answer the OP.

If they are deliberately turning people away from the message that "Whosoever meaneth me," can they truly claim to have no responsibility in their turning away?

 

[cantata]

I think definitely it is the sole responsibility of the adult. That is it.

Whose else would it be?

It is your choice and your choice alone to make.

People choose what they believe. God makes his own case. People who choose other than God do so of their own free will and bear the consequence of their choice.

You do not choose what you believe.

This is why the idea that faith is a virtue is utterly ridiculous. If anyone has responsibility for the failure of people to believe one thing or the other, it is the people who already believe it and attempt to persuade them. If your arguments are not convincing enough, it is no fault of the unbeliever that they are not convinced. If your arguments are actually offputting, that's even worse.

 

[WatersMoon110]

As someone who has been, on this very forum, almost convinced not to convert to Christianity (something I had been struggling with after the death of my Aunt) by a very hateful poster who identified as Christian; I think that the people who spread hatred should be to blame when their words or actions turn others away from Christianity.

People need to be held responsible for their own actions. Sometimes, these people might not understand the impact they are having on non-Christians who might be considering Christianity (or, for that matter, Christians who might be doubting their faith), but that doesn't lessen the negative impact they are having.

If a Christian's goal is to convert others to Christianity, they need to understand that the way they go about this matter just as much as their intent. That is, that the methods they use to attain their goal also matters. Especially when (in the case of the self-identified Christians mentioned in the OP, as well as the self-identified Christian that I had a negative deal with) their methods are having the opposite effect as they were trying for: turning people away from Christianity rather than towards Christianity.

 

[uberd00b]

In my opinion if an omnipotent omniscient deity exists then HE must hold all responsibility. I think this is an unavoidable conclusion, the buck stops at the top.

Sinner? God made you that way.

You're a non-believer? God's choice.

Going to hell? God made you to do that.

Anything more elaborate than that just gets confused.

 

[Athene]

I think we Christians are responsible for the way we behave towards others and if we do something to turn another away from Christianity then we will be held accountable.

Free choice is a luxury for the few, most of us do not make free choices because we are always influenced by one thing or another.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

What do you think? If someone is being a terrible witness, and turning people off or away from God with a message of hate, or painting God as an ogre that would as soon kill you as look at you, who has the responsibility of rejecting God? The unsaved, or the christian?

Jesus is not a sissy. The problem is when we Christians sink to the level of the bullies taunting us. It's a sin to do this, but it is a very human thing to do. YOU, for example, are not here at "Christian Forums" for a nice walk in the park with a Christian. You're picking a fight and protesting getting what you are giving.

Many (if not all) of the people going at Christians here, at schools, and in social politics and the courts, goad and goad them with such insulting and degrading language (and social and educational goals) that I for one fight the bully with a dose of their own medicine. I'm sinning doing that. But it is hard to allow an atheist or some pagan, gay guy or lesbian, to ridicule us for NOT wanting their lives and really, making a choice to leave it. YOU, and they, think that is hateful.

I for one will stand with you if YOU stop the dishonesty and pretend that you just want to get along with Christians. We Christians know what you want because we used to be you. No one is born a Christian. That takes a another birth process.

What you are doing here is a bit dishonest. You want to bully Christians and you want them to take it. I got news for you, we are Americans as well as Christians. Americans protest tyranny. You in your way and we in ours. BUT YOU ARE RIGHT . . . when you present that we should be loving. It's just hard when you can see your adversary for what they really want and what they really are.

I can prove "from the Bible" where you are right about how Christians should act towards you. How about dealing with us that same way. Remember the good Samaritan?

 

[Polycarp_fan]

You do not choose what you believe.

This is why the idea that faith is a virtue is utterly ridiculous. If anyone has responsibility for the failure of people to believe one thing or the other, it is the people who already believe it and attempt to persuade them. If your arguments are not convincing enough, it is no fault of the unbeliever that they are not convinced. If your arguments are actually offputting, that's even worse.

Faith to Christians come from experiences in the real world. That is why your arguments are not convincing and actually are offputting to us. We are unbelievers of the world and its ways. We're in it, just not of it. Or, we try not to be. BTW, you, a Queer, non-theist, are here at this "Christian Forum" why? And if its added strawberry jam, I'm with you at least there.

 

[Maren]

Jesus is not a sissy. The problem is when we Christians sink to the level of the bullies taunting us. It's a sin to do this, but it is a very human thing to do. YOU, for example, are not here at "Christian Forums" for a nice walk in the park with a Christian. You're picking a fight and protesting getting what you are giving.

Many (if not all) of the people going at Christians here, at schools, and in social politics and the courts, goad and goad them with such insulting and degrading language (and social and educational goals) that I for one fight the bully with a dose of their own medicine. I'm sinning doing that. But it is hard to allow an atheist or some pagan, gay guy or lesbian, to ridicule us for NOT wanting their lives and really, making a choice to leave it. YOU, and they, think that is hateful.

I for one will stand with you if YOU stop the dishonesty and pretend that you just want to get along with Christians. We Christians know what you want because we used to be you. No one is born a Christian. That takes a another birth process.

What you are doing here is a bit dishonest. You want to bully Christians and you want them to take it. I got news for you, we are Americans as well as Christians. Americans protest tyranny. You in your way and we in ours. BUT YOU ARE RIGHT . . . when you present that we should be loving. It's just hard when you can see your adversary for what they really want and what they really are.

I can prove "from the Bible" where you are right about how Christians should act towards you. How about dealing with us that same way. Remember the good Samaritan?

I'm not sure why you are attacking Beanieboy in this way, as I find him to be one of the kindest and most polite posters. I too, try to be kind to people, including Christians, and would like to get along. There are many Christians here that I do respect, even if I may disagree with them. Though I will admit, I'm not perfect.

As for me, I'm not trying to change the Christian religion or what Christians believe in. That is between you and God. OTOH, I live in a country where the majority are Christian, and as such I seek to speak with them here to share ideas, debate, and to find things we can agree on.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

It's the Church I blame. The teachings of the Church, IMHO, clearly do not match up with the teachings of Jesus Christ. And we often see the results of that truth in it's followers.

I’ve seen some really terrible acts from Christians that have told me that if that’s what they learn from Christianity, there’s no way I want to be like them. So I’m not.

When did America become such a violent and degenerate place? It was when we became a post-Christian nation. When we embraced a Humanist/secular way of being.

The reason I do not want to be "of" the world is precisely because of what the non and anti-Christians do. How many young people are in their graves for living a worldly life? So many you can't count them. Some, don't even make it to a grave.