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If you start with a wrong idea of God it’s extremely hard to get to the correct conclusion of what God has given us in scripture.

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Jeff Saunders

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I will do what you do Phil 2:10-11 / Isa 45:23 / Rom 14:11 - 1Tim 4:9-11 - 1Tim 2:3-6 - Acts 3:21-25 and many more. These can only be true if the Lake of fire is a refinery for correction.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I am doing my own study of Aion in the New Testament. So far I am on Matthew and it occurred in 9 verses. KJV uses it as for ever 2 times and world 7 times. NASB forever 2 times, world 1 time and age 6 times. It’s just a start , I plan to go through the rest of the books a little at a time. But just from this it shows how the translators had to change the definition of the word because the correct definition doesn’t fit into their tradition. I am pretty sure this is a good sample of what I will find with the rest. So I. Just one book Aion which is supposedly “eternal “ is translated, world, age , and forever. Not very consistent on the translation. How can forever/ eternal be translated as world? Or even age , that has a beginning and and end? I already have your page of what your sources say please don’t resend that.
 
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Der Alte

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I suggest you go back and get the correct information the word aionios, an adjective, occurs only 5 times in Matthew; Matthew 18:8, Matthew 19:16, Matthew 19:29, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46 and is translated eternal. The word translated world is aion, a noun. While aion is sometimes translated world, a noun, it is never defined as the planet earth. How do I explain the seeming discrepancy? Words are sometimes used hyperbolically or figuratively. Jesus called Peter, Satan one time, Peter was not literally satan. Jesus called Herod a fox one time. Herod was not literally a fox. figurative. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the sources I quoted instead of ignoring them. If I was submitting paper at an institution of higher learning they would certainly want to see the sources. I quoted Encyclopedia Americana one time and the proctor bled all over my paper with a red pen. "Do you consider this a scholastic source?" Self, "Not any more I don't." Since my sons were grown I tossed the encyclopedia.
 
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Der Alte

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Jeff Saunders said:
I will do what you do Phil 2:10-11 / Isa 45:23 / Rom 14:11 - 1Tim 4:9-11 - 1Tim 2:3-6 - Acts 3:21-25 and many more. These can only be true if the Lake of fire is a refinery for correction.
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Since you chose to ignore the vss. I cited above, Luke 16:25-26, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Matthew 25:46, John 3:36, Revelation 22:11, which conflict with your false understanding of 1Tim 4:9-11
I won't be addressing those you posted, Phil 2:10-11 / Isa 45:23 / Rom 14:11 - 1Tim 4:9-11 - 1Tim 2:3-6 - Acts 3:21-25.
 
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Der Alte

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Nonsense NONE, zero of the vss. I cited mention "age", "this age," "the next age" etc. That seems to be the automatic reflex, fall back response to any vs. or passage which conflicts with UR.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Well I am glad this isn’t a college course, it’s a discussion. I think you should go back and read what I said , I said nothing about Aionios, I was looking at the word Aion and it occurred 126 times in the New Testament. Aion In Matthew is used 9 times. 7 times it’s translated world in KJV , 2 times as for ever. NASB has has world 1time, forever 2times , age or age to come 6 times. But what was really interesting is Matthew has kosmos/cosmos 3 times , which you know is the correct Greek word for world. Why do you think that if Aion can be translated as world did Matthew use cosmos 7 times for world and other translations have Aion as world and not cosmos? Was Matthew confused? Or did the translators have an agenda and to properly translate Aion as age would go against their tradition and had to change the word to fit their tradition, that’s why it has to change from age to world, or forever. I think Matthew knew exactly what he was saying, but it doesn’t fit into the Augustine tradition so they had to change it. To me this should cause one to ponder on maybe they got it wrong, and the earth church fathers who I follow, who were native Greek speakers of that time better understood what was written than those who relied on Latin.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Of course you won’t deal with the scriptures that I gave because you can’t defend your tradition if you deal with them as written, I have given you my understanding of the scriptures you give and like I have said I have no problem with them as written, understanding how God uses ages .
 
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Der Alte

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Very dishonest. It is not that I can't but as I said. If you want me to address vss. you quote I expect the same courtesy, address the vss, I quote.
 
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Der Alte

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A lot of false assumptions which you did not and cannot back up. You don't know, only falsely assuming the motivation of the translators.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Der Alte said:
A lot of false assumptions which you did not and cannot back up. You don't know, only falsely assuming the motivation of the translators.
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Give me your opinion why would Matthew use two different words for world in one letter?
 
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JulieB67

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Jeff Saunders said:
These can only be true if the Lake of fire is a refinery for correction.
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No, that's not true. When Christ returns as Lord of Lords and Kings of Kings, every knee will bow. They will know the truth. But it doesn't mean that they will stay that way. I've posted the verses where Satan is still able to draw a number as huge as the sand of the sea. This is after they have bowed a knee. Some people will still reject Christ in the end. Apostasy is a real thing today and a real thing at that point. What's worse for them is they knew and still rejected him. It's written that anyone not written in the book of life still at Judgement Day will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Not one scripture exists that anyone will get out.

Again, I've asked you numerous times, what is the purpose of the book of life if everyone eventually gets eternal life and why is it possible if someone can be blotted out if you don't believe that's ultimately true?

Psalms 9:5 "Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever."

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Christ is telling them to repent. Christ is telling the ones that have fallen away into sin, apostasy, etc) to repent. He states that anyone that does, will not be blotten out. There's nothing there that even remotely suggests the Lake of Fire is in play here. So common sense tells us alone that anyone that does not "overcometh" will be blotted out of the book of life. That's Christ's teachings. If we say we believe in him for our salvation, we have to accept his teachings as well.

Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."



Revelation 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

There are more verses in the OT about being blotted out. Which is what's going to happen and we are told the memory of them will not even come to mind.

But our Father/Christ make it very clear throughout the entire Bible there is a book of life and it is possible to be added to this or blotted out of it.
But again, what are your views on the book of life? If you believe all have life, what is it's purpose? And if someone can be blotted out, what does that mean to you? And what's the danger of being blotted out if as you say all have life? And if you believe as you do, then the warning from Christ seems pointless but we know that can't be true. He's very serious in his warnings.







​
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I believe the book of life is most likely metaphorical. Our biggest problem as western thinking people is we read scripture through the lens of western mindset and that’s not how it was written. All the authors of the New Testament and Old , lived and thought as eastern thought and their audience also understood as eastern people would. We in the west think linear , they think in circles and use metaphor and exaggerated expressions and ideas. I have a New Testament that is a more literal interpretation and it amazes me in the notes how many times the author has put in that “ this expression is a common idiom of the day that all would understand but we don’t, and when translated into English it makes no sense “ We read scripture as a legal document and the eastern mind looks more to the spirit of things and if things don’t make sense to us they are ok with it. For example, and I am in no way an expert on the eastern mind, If they read that let’s say a city has been eternally destroyed until it is restored again they have no problem, they don’t see it as a contradiction as we do. My next sentence will probably not make sense to you but that’s ok , we as western thinkers define God by the Bible, but we should let God define the Bible. Bye that I mean, we need to know God so well that when we read scripture we see God and his plan for all humanity and understand it through that lens, instead of telling God what he has to do because we read a book. If we could only know God in a book , why did he wait about 5500 years for us to get that book? This whole story is of how God is redeeming his whole creation back to himself and he would never destroy or torture forever his beloved humanity. Jesus paid way too much of a cost to not redeem all to himself. Yes it is going to take a long time but in the end GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL. Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for , his mission will not fail.
 
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JulieB67

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Jeff Saunders said:
I believe the book of life is most likely metaphorical
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As a metaphor for what? You didn't explain.


For example what is Christ stating here in the verse below?

Notice the use of the word "and" which puts emphasis on all three things being taken away.



Revelation 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book


Are you suggesting someone can take away from the words of the book of the prophecy and God will not do those things? And what is God going to do if not those things? This is Christ's Revelation, what is he revealing about that verse?

And certainly we know that analogies and metaphors, parables are used in the Bible and I don't have a problem with the word "aion" meaning age, etc but this is very clear language. There's nothing to twist, no parable, just straight up warning, a serious one. And we are to study to show ourselves approved. And faith comes from hearing the Word of God.

And certainly there were the idioms of the day but again, these verses are pretty clear in their intent.

And what does your more "literal" translation state about this verse?

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
 
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BNR32FAN

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You claim that God can’t have these emotions but do you have any biblical support for it? It seems like you’re just making the claim without any evidence to support it. Can you please provide some evidence to support your claim that God can’t be jealous or angry? As for God regretting making man I think what is meant by it is that He regretted creating them knowing that He was going to have to destroy them in order to bring about His plan for salvation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That’s not what the scriptures teach. There are numerous verses that contradict universalism.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I honestly am not sure how to think or how to read Revelations. I have listened to hours of people who know way more than I do and none can agree on how much of the book we can take literally and how much is apocalyptic and metaphorical. There is no consensus on it at all. I have opinions but that is all they are. I listen a lot to Dr Heiser and he says that if anyone says they understand prophecy be careful because not much is directly clear and obvious, so I approach it that way. What I do know is that 1Cor 15:28 is the telos of God and that states that in the end God will be all in all, and that is what I believe. How is God going to get there I am not sure. I do now that fire is often used as a refining purifier, scripture tells us we all will go through the purification of fire, if our works are wood, hay , or stubble they will be burned away but if gold, silver, Or precious stones they will survive. So I trust that the Father is loving and good and all will work out for good in the end.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Unless you are an open theist and don’t believe that God knows the beginning from the end, which I am not. Then Gods know exactly what is going to happen because this is his creation not ours. If that is true how can God be sorry for something he did when he knows the outcome before it happens. So what can God get angry about it’s not like it took him by surprise. God gets jealous? Of what he is God , jealousy is because some one has something you want or wished you had, again what can God be jealous of? Bye you’re thinking, if you don’t understand God , you would think he forgets, how many times does scripture say “ God remembered them” does God forget? Or when God asked Moses “ what’s in your hand?” Did God not know? Or when Adam was in the garden, after he sinned, and God asks “ Adam where are you” do you really think God didn’t know where he was? If you don’t understand God you will come to the wrong conclusion.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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BNR32FAN said:
That’s not what the scriptures teach. There are numerous verses that contradict universalism.
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Not if you translate the Greek properly. If you translate Aion as age and Aionios as pertaining to the age , or of the age. Most of the Supposedly contradictory verses fit quite well with the story of scripture, if translated correctly. Here are some examples- 1Tim 2:3-6 says it’s Gods will/desire that none parish. No more 2 wills of God, something that is not in scripture. 1Tim 4:9-11 because trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Yup all are saved in the end. John 4:42 Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world. Yup he is, not a potential savior. 1Cor 15:21-28 … as in Adam all died as In Jesus all will live . Yup again no problem with the plain reading. There are many more but I think that’s enough to get the idea. Christian Universal Redemption is the only lens for reading scripture that makes the whole story true very little contradiction, as we see it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Asking Moses “what’s in your hand” and asking Adam & Eve “where are you” were both questions for the purpose of eliciting a response. Saying that God doesn’t get angry or jealous is just directly contradicting what God Himself specifically said. And I think that’s why you believe in universalism, because you’re basing your beliefs on your own reasoning rather than what the word of God actually says.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Aion and aionios are irrelevant because there are numerous passages that refute universalism that don’t use either of those words. “Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God” “but woe to the man who betrays the Son of Man for it would be better for him if he had never been born” “he who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven” “do not fear those who are able to kill the body but fear Him who is able to kill both soul and body in hell” “this is the second death, the lake of fire and anyone who’s name was not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire”, not to mention all of the passages that say that people who are immoral, impure, wicked, idolators, will not enter the kingdom of God.

God desires a lot of things that He doesn’t get. As you yourself already pointed out He didn’t want to kill everyone in the flood, but He didn’t it anyway, didn’t He? He didn’t want everyone to sin, but literally everyone except God did. He didn’t want the Jews to worship idols. I mean I can sit here all night listing all the things God didn’t want to happen that did happen, one thing the scriptures have taught us consistently from Genesis to Revelation is that man has constantly been a disappointment to God. So that argument that God desires all men to be saved and that none should perish doesn’t negate the passages of scripture that I’ve quoted above that specifically state that not everyone will be forgiven and enter heaven.
 
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