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If you present a lie as truth, are you also lying?

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Beanieboy

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Recently, several posters have been posting "facts" from people like Paul Cameron:
In 1986 the American Sociological Association, following a report from its Committee on the Status of Homosexuals in Sociology,[19] passed a resolution condemning Dr. Cameron for "consistent misrepresentation of sociological research".[20] In 1996, the Board of Directors of the Canadian Psychological Association approved a position statement disassociating the organisation from Cameron's work on sexuality, stating that he had "consistently misinterpreted and misrepresented research on sexuality, homosexuality, and lesbianism".[21]

When one posts one of his studies, and is shown that it has been disproven by his peers, is the person lying when they claim it to be truth later? Are organizations, such as Focus on the Family and the Family Research Institute, who continue to use these studies, continue to claim their validity, committing a grievious sin of deception?

If they are committing this sin, why do they need to lie if the truth is evident as they claim? Just as one can pour vinegar into a glass of baking soda and see the chemical reaction for themselves, peers should be able to do the exact same study and get the same results, but they don't. They criticise NOT the findings, but the PROCEDURE, which is faulty.

Someone recently posted a "study" if you can call it that that the average age for gay men is 43. The way that this was done was that the researcher chose to go through a gay newspaper and look at the obituaries when people were dying of AIDS, add the numbers and divide. That leaves a lot of holes, like factoring in the age of people who were negative, and still living.

Correlation is also a tricky thing.
For example: a prof once told the class: It is proven that there is a direct coorelation between the number of churches in a city, and the number of bars. Does that mean that churches create more bars?

There is a third, overlooked element: The more population you have, the more churches, and so of course, the more bars.

It is human to have a faulty study, or flawed findings.
However, it is subhuman to then take those flawed findings, and STILL report them as truth.

So, if you know better, but still use disproven data, are you lying?
Are the organizations that use this faulty data also lying?
And more importantly: Why do they choose to blantantly lie?
Is it in any way serving God? Is it serving Man? Who is serving?
If Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, is this Jesus' Way? His Truth? This Light?
 

OutsideNormal

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If you have knowledge that what you a presenting is in fact a lie, then yes you are lying. If you do not have knowledge that it is a lie, then no you are not lying. Once you are informed that what you presented as truth is in fact a lie then it is your responsibility to set the record straight and admit that you were wrong to present the lie as truth without first verifying it. If you instead choose to remain willfully ignorant and continue to spread the lie as truth then you are no better then the originator of the lie.
 
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StarCannon

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FOF falsifying information is not for the benefit of mankind, obviously. Whether or not it goes against god is not my concern.

So, if you know better, but still use disproven data, are you lying?
Yes.
Are the organizations that use this faulty data also lying?
Yes.
And more importantly: Why do they choose to blantantly lie?
To spread fear and use that fear as a means of control.
Is it in any way serving God? Is it serving Man? Who is serving?
It's not serving anyone, except for the ones that have to benefit from this lie.
If Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, is this Jesus' Way? His Truth? This Light?
Moot question, but no. The lie does not serve any purpose other than the one intended to begin with.
 
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lawtonfogle

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What purpose does an organization like FOF have in having false information, and promoting it as truth? Do you believe they are lying? If so, why, and for what purpose? Does it serve or go against God?


They probably believe the studies are true. Remember, a lie detector does not tell truth from fiction, but what you believe truth and fiction are. If I think all gay people have aids, and I take a lie detector test, then it will show I am not lying when I say "All gay people have aids," simply because I believe it. So the true problem may not be that they are lying, but that they are believing mis-truths.
 
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OutsideNormal

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What purpose does an organization like FOF have in having false information, and promoting it as truth? Do you believe they are lying? If so, why, and for what purpose? Does it serve or go against God?

Of course they're lying. They do it so that they can continue to manipulate they're followers, and in the end it's all about money. They get money from the people they are deceiving so that they can continue to to feed them lies and to enrich themselves. As for whether or not it serves God, one day they will be called to account for their actions and on that day their judgment shall be in Gods hands.
 
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revanneosl

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The Church used to have a nicely systematic way of teaching about this, and I'm not sure when we lost it.

It used to go like this: There are two kinds of information
1. Information that a given person (given their station in life) can reasonably be expected to have, and
2. Information that a given person (given their station in life) can not reasonably be expected to have.

Now, if one (given one's station in life - say, as a commentator upon politics, or social affairs, or morality, or whatever) can reasonably be expected to be in possession of a certain sort of information (such as the verifiability of certain data, or the reliability of certain sources) and one does not bother to make one's self well-informed upon that topic, the church used to call that:

Culpable Ignorance

It was also known as the sin of tempting the Lord.
 
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Beanieboy

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Of course they're lying. They do it so that they can continue to manipulate they're followers, and in the end it's all about money. They get money from the people they are deceiving so that they can continue to to feed them lies and to enrich themselves. As for whether or not it serves God, one day they will be called to account for their actions and on that day their judgment shall be in Gods hands.

Do you think that is what it is all about? Money?
Orgs like FOF, 700 Club, etc.?

Wow. If that is true, I can't imagine the judgement that would fall upon such a person or organization.

Do you believe that any of the orgs actually believe that they are doing God's will or service for God?
 
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cantata

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I am loath to paint anyone as a liar - like lawtonfogle, I feel inclined to assume that people sincerely believe untruths - but the worthlessness of those studies in particular has been so widely circulated that I cannot help but be suspicious of any organisation that uses them as evidence to support its positions.
 
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OutsideNormal

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Do you think that is what it is all about? Money?
Orgs like FOF, 700 Club, etc.?

Wow. If that is true, I can't imagine the judgement that would fall upon such a person or organization.

Do you believe that any of the orgs actually believe that they are doing God's will or service for God?

There may be a few that do, but the vast majority aren't. Even then, those that refuse to accept the truth are willfully ignorant and are no better then the outright liars. Some of the organizations may believe that they are doing Gods will, but can a person really do that if they are lying and manipulating people?
 
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Bombila

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Willful ignorance is often combined with zeal for a goal such that anything that might impede that goal is seen as wrong, regardless of its truth or untruth.

It's still lying, of course, but most people who lie in this context are capable of convincing themselves it's for the greater good, so it must be true on some level.

Humans are best at self-deceit.
 
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keith99

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Do you think that is what it is all about? Money?
Orgs like FOF, 700 Club, etc.?

Wow. If that is true, I can't imagine the judgement that would fall upon such a person or organization.

Do you believe that any of the orgs actually believe that they are doing God's will or service for God?

How about having to walk about in robes of solid gold? Oh and if you stop moving the robes get hot!

No not my idea, I will not commit the sin of taking others ideas and calling them my own. I got this from Niven and Pournelle. I'm pretty sure they got this from Dante.

So many nice fitting judgements in INFERNO.
 
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Philothei

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Recently, several posters have been posting "facts" from people like Paul Cameron:
In 1986 the American Sociological Association, following a report from its Committee on the Status of Homosexuals in Sociology,[19] passed a resolution condemning Dr. Cameron for "consistent misrepresentation of sociological research".[20] In 1996, the Board of Directors of the Canadian Psychological Association approved a position statement disassociating the organisation from Cameron's work on sexuality, stating that he had "consistently misinterpreted and misrepresented research on sexuality, homosexuality, and lesbianism".[21]

When one posts one of his studies, and is shown that it has been disproven by his peers, is the person lying when they claim it to be truth later? Are organizations, such as Focus on the Family and the Family Research Institute, who continue to use these studies, continue to claim their validity, committing a grievious sin of deception?

If they are committing this sin, why do they need to lie if the truth is evident as they claim? Just as one can pour vinegar into a glass of baking soda and see the chemical reaction for themselves, peers should be able to do the exact same study and get the same results, but they don't. They criticise NOT the findings, but the PROCEDURE, which is faulty.

Someone recently posted a "study" if you can call it that that the average age for gay men is 43. The way that this was done was that the researcher chose to go through a gay newspaper and look at the obituaries when people were dying of AIDS, add the numbers and divide. That leaves a lot of holes, like factoring in the age of people who were negative, and still living.

Correlation is also a tricky thing.
For example: a prof once told the class: It is proven that there is a direct coorelation between the number of churches in a city, and the number of bars. Does that mean that churches create more bars?

There is a third, overlooked element: The more population you have, the more churches, and so of course, the more bars.

It is human to have a faulty study, or flawed findings.
However, it is subhuman to then take those flawed findings, and STILL report them as truth.

So, if you know better, but still use disproven data, are you lying?
Are the organizations that use this faulty data also lying?
And more importantly: Why do they choose to blantantly lie?
Is it in any way serving God? Is it serving Man? Who is serving?
If Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, is this Jesus' Way? His Truth? This Light?

Those who lie are sinning no matter what and who they represent. Those organizations do lie it is obvious. I do not know why they lie. I suspect they lie to sway public opinion? I do not believe that the purpose justifies the means when it comes to God. I think God does not want us to use 'lying and evil" to attain his goals. It defenately does not serve God. And it does not serve man either. I do not know who it serves but I suspect they think they serve God, and i disagree.... God does not want us to employ 'deceit' to do his will, those are means that the evil one uses...Christ is the way and the light and the truth... so we do keep our actions truthfull for the world to see and see that Christ and God is good...

Also just because some lie does not paint all Christianity with a wide brush as not ALL Chrisitians lying. My 2 cents.
 
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Philothei

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Religions are not lying at least their ideology usually does not.. Maybe you mean organizations lie? or institutions?
How can an ideology lie? they all point to a higher standard and ideal. Rather it is us humans who fail misserably at keeping up with its standards.

So, we cannot make assumpions since none is doing that ONLY in practice some do...
 
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cantata

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Religions are not lying at least their ideology usually does not.. Maybe you mean organizations lie? or institutions?
How can an ideology lie? they all point to a higher standard and ideal. Rather it is us humans who fail misserably at keeping up with its standards.

A "higher" standard or ideal might not actually be worth achieving.

Religions can be wrong about things. They make truth claims about things like the origin of the world which are either true or false. They could even be deliberately made-up. ($cientology, anyone?)
 
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Philothei

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True they can carry fallacies... and they can be deliberate but still do you consider scientology a "religion" ;) I was thinking more a cult. I was kind of talking about Christianity etc. I agree that new type of "religions" can be just plain out "wisdom of men" to attract the volunatrable and naive ....:(
 
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