If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[Jan001]

Your urgency to ignore details in Hebrews 6-10 is not serving your argument well

Christ is our one and only High Priest.

Christ made the covenant at Sinai - and that means HE gave mankind the TEN Commandments just as your own church claims the TEN Commandments are for all mankind.

Christ's NEW covenant is the SAME in Hebrews 8 as it was in Jeremiah 31:31-33
"10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,"

Hebrews 8:6-10
quoting Jer 31:31-3


Hebrews 8:1-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
A Better Ministry
8 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.


A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

​

Rom 3:31 "Do we make void the LAW of God by or faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Romans 7

6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

The Conflict of Two Natures
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.





"Your own Ten Commandments"??? are for me????. You make stuff up then I am obligated??? This is the first time you have ever mentioned this.

Since you can do whatever you wish with your own denomination - it should be pretty easy for you to print some sort of ten-commandment-denying statement by your own church. Something that shows them condemning the Commandments of God at Sinai - no too difficult given your statements about that so far.

So we all look forward to such a published reference or quote from your own church saying what you believe. This is not at all a challenge of any sort - since all of us can do it, in the case of our own statements and our own churches.

Please provide the reference.


in Christ,

Bob

Matthew 16:17-19
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”​

I already linked, in a previous email, to the website which contrasts the Exodus Ten Commandments, the Deuteronomy Ten Commandments, and the Catholic Ten Commandments which are in the far right column on the Vatican website. There is no sabbath commandment in the Catholic Ten Commandments. Peter, the Rock, never commanded the sabbath commandment for the Gentile Christians and neither did any of the other apostles. The Israelite OC sabbath commandment is not relevant to NC Greek Christians. They are not biological Israelites. The sabbath commandment was given to the Israelites as a special sign for them alone and it was not given to any other people. The law of Moses was given to the biological Israelites and not to any other people.

Abraham was not under the sabbath law and Abraham was not under the law of Moses. These things came into existence 430 years after God made His covenant with Abraham. Christians are under the same covenant that God gave to Abraham before he was circumcised. Therefore no Greek Christians are required to be circumcised and neither are they required to follow the law of Moses.

The word Law can pertain to different things in the Scriptures. Law does not always mean the Torah which for the Israelite/Jew is actually everything written in the first 5 books of the OT according to a Rabbi's teachings that I have heard. The Torah is not simply the law of Moses nor is it simply the Ten Commandments and the law of Moses.

I simply do not have time to continue on with this same topic. There are other topics I'd like to post to and other things that I need to attend to.

Obviously to me, because the Scripture states that Christians are not under the tutor/law of Moses/old covenant, then the laws for the Israelites and the Christians are not the same laws. You really need no more than the following Scripture passage to learn that your interpretations of the Scriptures are mistaken.

Galatians 3:22-25
But the Scripture (old covenant law of Moses) has confined all under sin (due to the Israelites' inability to keep ALL the commands required by the law of Moses), that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law (of Moses), kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law (old covenant law of Moses) was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (old covenant law of Moses). rsv​

 

[BobRyan]

I've told you many times, my Church does not keep the sabbath day. Our own Ten Commandments are for all mankind,

"Your own Ten Commandments"??? are for me????. You make stuff up then I am obligated??? This is the first time you have ever mentioned this.

Since you can do whatever you wish with your own denomination - it should be pretty easy for you to print some sort of ten-commandment-denying statement by your own church. Something that shows them condemning the Commandments of God at Sinai - no too difficult given your statements about that so far.

So we all look forward to such a published reference or quote from your own church saying what you believe. This is not at all a challenge of any sort - since all of us can do it, in the case of our own statements and our own churches.

Please provide the reference.


(This should be good!!)

Matthew 16:17-19
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.​

Good point -- Peter was indeed a disciple



18 And I tell you, you are Peter (petros), and on this Rock(PETRA) I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. ... and turning to Peter He said ' GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN - ”​

I already linked, in a previous email, to the website which contrasts the Exodus Ten Commandments, the Deuteronomy Ten Commandments, and the Catholic Ten Commandments which are in the far right column on the Vatican website.

"The Catholic Ten Commandments"??

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

There is no Sabbath commandment in the Catholic Ten Commandments.

The "Catholic Ten Commandments"??

Or ... "The Bible" Ten Commandments -


I just read from Malachi 3" "I the LORD your God do not change"
and from Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

And from Eph 6:2 that the unit of Ten - in which the 5th commandment is the "FIRST Commandment with a promise" -- is still binding on all mankind. A Bible detail so obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship agree -- such as Spurgeon, Moody, R.C. Sproul, Stanley, the "Westminster Confession of Faith", the "Baptist Confession of Faith", Matthew Henry... et al "get that point".




And then I read from Mark 7:6-13 -- showing how "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition - HAMMERS the traditions of man that seek to edit/alter/change the LAW of God.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible Ten Commandments - or "the Catholic Ten Commandments" -- you decide..


========================================================

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"

1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -

Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================



In these quotes we see "TEN Commandments" and "DECALOGUE" not "630"

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.


these Catholic Catechism statements seem to support what John Paul II and what "The Faith Explained" have said in their two points above --

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.[/QUOTE]


Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

 

[klutedavid]

I have come to understand that the modern State of Israel is made up of individuals just as all nations are. Based on Romans chapter 11, God has not rejected the individual descendants of Jacob who accept Christ.

However, the government of that nation is just as corrupt as the United States.

Sadly, some modern evangelicals have come to worship the nation as an idol.
They have changed the reference to Abraham in Genesis 12:3 into all of his descendants and or the modern State of Israel.
They ignore Galatians 3:16, 29, because it does not fit their doctrine.

Most of the Baptists here in the southern U. S. are so stepped in John Darby's doctrine that it is all some of them have ever heard.

They keep telling me that God's plan did not work out correctly because the Jews 2,000 years ago did not accept Christ as their Messiah and therefore God had to go to Plan B. Maybe they have never read Genesis 3:15. They say God will go back to dealing with the nation of Israel during a future 70th week of Daniel, after the pretrib rapture of the Church. They also say God will go back to the Old Covenant during this time period. Many of them worship the modern State of Israel, established by the United Nations in 1948.

If I told you the truth about this doctrine, they might throw me off of this forum...

Anyone who thinks God is going back to the "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old covenant, with Moses as the mediator instead of Christ needs to read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-13.

Revelation 12:11 exposes this doctrine for what it is. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

.

Hello Berean.

You are correct, God has finished with theocratic Israel. The nation of Israel
and the Old Covenant were terminated in the first century. A new temple
will never be constructed, modern Israel is a secular nation.

 

[klutedavid]

Like this?

Some would argue that people in the bible take Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" as Laws to be used to delete God's spoken Word in Ex 20 - the TEN Commandments.

Law spoken by God and written in stone - where we are then told in Deut 5 "And He added no more" -- .

Well that sort of guesswork will not hold up to the "Sola Scriptura" test -- and we all know it.

Most impressively - so also do many pro-sunday scholars know it.

They know that the Ten Commandments were not deleted by Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 in either the OT or the NT.

Nor is there a NT text saying 'these two laws delete the OT, delete scripture, delete the commandments of God.."

Eph 6:2 the text many might prefer to religiously avoid says --> "Honor your father and Mother - which is the FIRST commandment with a promise"

Question for the group: -- FIRST commandment WHERE??

first in Lev 19:18???? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

how about in Deut 6:5?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

How about John 13?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

We can all see this. So no debate at all so far.

===============================================

So then here is the answer to our OP question -- what are included in "God's Commandments" in the following examples??

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping God's Commandments" --

God's commandments where the 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise". Eph 6:2

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

God's commandments where the 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise". Eph 6:2

1 John 5:2-4
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

God's commandments where the 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise". Eph 6:2

The answer is easy -- when one does not dismiss Bible details.

Rom 3:31 "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

And of course - Bible details matter.

Hello Bob.

The commandment, 'honor your father and mother', contains a promise.
The promise is for a long life on earth, this is not a commandment that
relates to salvation or eternal life. One does not need to obey this
commandment to be saved.

For example Bob, if your parents are deceased, then you are exempt
from this commandment anyway. Naughty children are not going to hell
either. Salvation is not based on a level of commandment obedience,
be good 80% of the time and you will be saved.

Has there ever been a child that fully honored their parents?

 

[bugkiller]

Matthew 16:17-19
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”​

I already linked, in a previous email, to the website which contrasts the Exodus Ten Commandments, the Deuteronomy Ten Commandments, and the Catholic Ten Commandments which are in the far right column on the Vatican website. There is no sabbath commandment in the Catholic Ten Commandments. Peter, the Rock, never commanded the sabbath commandment for the Gentile Christians and neither did any of the other apostles. The Israelite OC sabbath commandment is not relevant to NC Greek Christians. They are not biological Israelites. The sabbath commandment was given to the Israelites as a special sign for them alone and it was not given to any other people. The law of Moses was given to the biological Israelites and not to any other people.

Abraham was not under the sabbath law and Abraham was not under the law of Moses. These things came into existence 430 years after God made His covenant with Abraham. Christians are under the same covenant that God gave to Abraham before he was circumcised. Therefore no Greek Christians are required to be circumcised and neither are they required to follow the law of Moses.

The word Law can pertain to different things in the Scriptures. Law does not always mean the Torah which for the Israelite/Jew is actually everything written in the first 5 books of the OT according to a Rabbi's teachings that I have heard. The Torah is not simply the law of Moses nor is it simply the Ten Commandments and the law of Moses.

I simply do not have time to continue on with this same topic. There are other topics I'd like to post to and other things that I need to attend to.

Obviously to me, because the Scripture states that Christians are not under the tutor/law of Moses/old covenant, then the laws for the Israelites and the Christians are not the same laws. You really need no more than the following Scripture passage to learn that your interpretations of the Scriptures are mistaken.

Galatians 3:22-25
But the Scripture (old covenant law of Moses) has confined all under sin (due to the Israelites' inability to keep ALL the commands required by the law of Moses), that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law (of Moses), kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law (old covenant law of Moses) was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (old covenant law of Moses). rsv​

The problem is BobRyan is not interested in the truth or Scripture. He is only interested in his agenda of converting Christians to his religion of salvation by works. He has always been a "good boy" loyal to his church and its teachings. As such he will not listen to anything he does not already agree with meaning EGW. She has ordered their adherents to not listen to anyone but her and their church. Any interaction with them is a vain effort. That is why my goal here is not to convince BobRyan of anything. His spam does get very old. I'm so very sorry if he or anyone else take this as a personal attack. My goal is to promote the truth and thus it exposes false doctrine among other false things. He shows no regard for the Bible even while he partially quotes from it. The Bible is nothing but a quote mine for him.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Some would argue that people in the bible take Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" as Laws to be used to delete God's spoken Word in Ex 20 - the TEN Commandments.

Law spoken by God and written in stone - where we are then told in Deut 5 "And He added no more" -- .

Well that sort of guesswork will not hold up to the "Sola Scriptura" test -- and we all know it.

Most impressively - so also do many pro-sunday scholars know it.

They know that the Ten Commandments were not deleted by Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 in either the OT or the NT.

Nor is there a NT text saying 'these two laws delete the OT, delete scripture, delete the commandments of God.."

Eph 6:2 the text many might prefer to religiously avoid says --> "Honor your father and Mother - which is the FIRST commandment with a promise"

Question for the group: -- FIRST commandment WHERE??

first in Lev 19:18???? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

how about in Deut 6:5?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

How about John 13?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

We can all see this. So no debate at all so far.

Hello Bob.

The commandment, 'honor your father and mother', contains a promise.
The promise is for a long life on earth, this is not a commandment that
relates to salvation or eternal life.

Is Paul saying "pay no attention to the Commandment" in Eph 6:2?
Does he say "I don't want you to take God's name in vain because by obeying this commandment you will earn you way to heaven"???

Does he say "Honor your father and mother if you feel like it - but don't be thinking that obedience to the Word of God is some sort of sign or fruit of being a Christian"??

Does he say this is the "FIRST Commandment with a promise" as if the reader actually knew about the still-valid -- still-binding TEN Commandments?

One does not need to obey this
commandment to be saved.

For example Bob, if your parents are deceased,

If your parents have passed away - are you living in rebellion because you cannot personally speak with them???


Is this reference to the TEN Commandment unit in Eph 6 - and the fact that it still is valid - something you don't wish to discuss?

 

[bugkiller]

"Your own Ten Commandments"??? are for me????. You make stuff up then I am obligated??? This is the first time you have ever mentioned this.

Since you can do whatever you wish with your own denomination - it should be pretty easy for you to print some sort of ten-commandment-denying statement by your own church. Something that shows them condemning the Commandments of God at Sinai - no too difficult given your statements about that so far.

So we all look forward to such a published reference or quote from your own church saying what you believe. This is not at all a challenge of any sort - since all of us can do it, in the case of our own statements and our own churches.

Please provide the reference.


(This should be good!!)

Good point -- Peter was indeed a disciple



18 And I tell you, you are Peter (petros), and on this Rock(PETRA) I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. ... and turning to Peter He said ' GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN - ”​

"The Catholic Ten Commandments"??

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26




The "Catholic Ten Commandments"??

Or ... "The Bible" Ten Commandments -


I just read from Malachi 3" "I the LORD your God do not change"
and from Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

And from Eph 6:2 that the unit of Ten - in which the 5th commandment is the "FIRST Commandment with a promise" -- is still binding on all mankind. A Bible detail so obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship agree -- such as Spurgeon, Moody, R.C. Sproul, Stanley, the "Westminster Confession of Faith", the "Baptist Confession of Faith", Matthew Henry... et al "get that point".




And then I read from Mark 7:6-13 -- showing how "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition - HAMMERS the traditions of man that seek to edit/alter/change the LAW of God.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Only for you to mock and make sport of. What for?

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Each time I post a note filled with scripture --- like this

Like this?

Some would argue that people in the bible take Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" as Laws to be used to delete God's spoken Word in Ex 20 - the TEN Commandments.

Law spoken by God and written in stone - where we are then told in Deut 5 "And He added no more" -- .

Well that sort of guesswork will not hold up to the "Sola Scriptura" test -- and we all know it.

Most impressively - so also do many pro-sunday scholars know it.

They know that the Ten Commandments were not deleted by Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 in either the OT or the NT.

Nor is there a NT text saying 'these two laws delete the OT, delete scripture, delete the commandments of God.."

Eph 6:2 the text many might prefer to religiously avoid says --> "Honor your father and Mother - which is the FIRST commandment with a promise"

Question for the group: -- FIRST commandment WHERE??

first in Lev 19:18???? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

how about in Deut 6:5?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

How about John 13?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

We can all see this. So no debate at all so far.

===============================================

So then here is the answer to our OP question -- what are included in "God's Commandments" in the following examples??

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping God's Commandments" --

God's commandments where the 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise". Eph 6:2

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

God's commandments where the 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise". Eph 6:2

1 John 5:2-4
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

God's commandments where the 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise". Eph 6:2

The answer is easy -- when one does not dismiss Bible details.

Rom 3:31 "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

And of course - Bible details matter.

We will then get an entirely scripture-vacuous post ... in response

Not a text in it.

The problem is BobRyan is not interested in the truth or Scripture. He is only interested in his agenda of converting Christians to his religion of salvation by works. He has always been a "good boy" loyal to his church and its teachings. As such he will not listen to anything he does not already agree with meaning EGW. She has ordered their adherents to not listen to anyone but her and their church. Any interaction with them is a vain effort. That is why my goal here is not to convince BobRyan of anything. His spam does get very old. I'm so very sorry if he or anyone else take this as a personal attack. My goal is to promote the truth and thus it exposes false doctrine among other false things. He shows no regard for the Bible even while he partially quotes from it. The Bible is nothing but a quote mine for him.

bugkiller

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Who goes for that??

 

[bugkiller]

Each time I post a note filled with scripture --- like this

Didn't use to be that way Bob. When we do post Scripture you refuse to respond to it. You refuse to discuss the passages we have posted. Instead you rely on religious people/leaders with misrepresentation of their intended meaning. You're among people here who have been long time Christians and well rooted in the Scripture and its truth. Some of us are not under the domain of some religious person such as myself. Religious bondage does not and has never worked for me. OTH Many don't understand it and are very happy in it. It leaves me just as empty as a theme park - kinda pleasurable while there and flat upon exit.

We will then get an entirely scripture-vacuous post ... in response

Vicious? Oh yeah look who said it.

Not a text in it.[/quote]Again what for? So you can have something to mock.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Why yes, you're really counting n others to not notice what you're doing.

Who goes for that??

More than me for sure.

bugkiller

 

[klutedavid]

The problem is BobRyan is not interested in the truth or Scripture. He is only interested in his agenda of converting Christians to his religion of salvation by works. He has always been a "good boy" loyal to his church and its teachings. As such he will not listen to anything he does not already agree with meaning EGW. She has ordered their adherents to not listen to anyone but her and their church. Any interaction with them is a vain effort. That is why my goal here is not to convince BobRyan of anything. His spam does get very old. I'm so very sorry if he or anyone else take this as a personal attack. My goal is to promote the truth and thus it exposes false doctrine among other false things. He shows no regard for the Bible even while he partially quotes from it. The Bible is nothing but a quote mine for him.

bugkiller

Hello Bugkiller.

The scripture does not follow a logical progression. The New Testament starts
under the law, the apostles are all Jews and under the whole law. Almost no
Gentile interaction in the four Gospels is observed. It is not until chapter fifteen
of the book of Acts, that the question of the Gentile church is even dealt with by
the apostles. Are Gentiles under the law? Do they need circumcision?

Well the answer given by the apostles actually creates even more confusion.

Abstain from things strangled?

Avoid eating food sacrificed to Idols?

It sure appears to be simple instructions to promote peace between the Jews
and the Gentiles at Antioch. For the life of me I do not understand the decree
regarding food to Idols. Even Paul states in Corinthians that this is irrelevant.

So Bugkiller, are you amazed that some folk are under the law?

After all Bugkiller, when they read 'not under the law', they actually are reading,
'not under the condemnation of the law'. You read 'not under the law', and so do I,
but they are taught to read that statement differently.

If an apostle mentions 'adultery', then that means the commandment is in force,
binding, you are under it.

If an apostle mentions 'sorcery', then they have no reply. If they say 'sorcery'
is a commandment, then the ten commandment theology collapses. They can
ignore anything they wish, this is how they read the Bible.

Even though the New Testament never states Gentiles are under the ten commandments.
This is not important, just one mention of any commandment is sufficient to impose
the ten commandments.

 

[bugkiller]

Hello Bugkiller.

The scripture does not follow a logical progression. The New Testament starts
under the law, the apostles are all Jews and under the whole law. Almost no
Gentile interaction in the four Gospels is observed. It is not until chapter fifteen
of the book of Acts, that the question of the Gentile church is even dealt with by
the apostles. Are Gentiles under the law? Do they need circumcision?

I believe the Scripture follows a very logical progression and unfolding of God's master plan to redeem mankind and prove His incredible love. I see the Apostles involved with Gentiles in Acts 10.

Well the answer given by the apostles actually creates even more confusion.

Abstain from things strangled?

Avoid eating food sacrificed to Idols?

I see no confusion here. This lines up very well with the covenant made with Noah.

It sure appears to be simple instructions to promote peace between the Jews
and the Gentiles at Antioch. For the life of me I do not understand the decree
regarding food to Idols. Even Paul states in Corinthians that this is irrelevant.

Again I see no confusion here. Paul is very much in line with Jesus on the food issue defiling a person. I see Paul very much in line with Peter's vision in Acts 10 about clean and unclean.

So Bugkiller, are you amazed that some folk are under the law?

Actually no because it is very appealing tot he carnal mind (flesh).

After all Bugkiller, when they read 'not under the law', they actually are reading,
'not under the condemnation of the law'. You read 'not under the law', and so do I,
but they are taught to read that statement differently.

Yeppers. Many refuse to believe what the Scripture actually says. The scripture is a love letter to some while others who reject it have no business telling them what their personal love letter says.

If an apostle mentions 'adultery', then that means the commandment is in force,
binding, you are under it.

So be it. They really teach obedience by incidence. There is no such thing.

If an apostle mentions 'sorcery', then they have no reply. If they say 'sorcery'
is a commandment, then the ten commandment theology collapses. They can
ignore anything they wish, this is how they read the Bible.

They believe without question or examination what they have been told by people of influence instead of reading the Bible themselves. LLOJ has posted this with reference tot he bolded -

and we have known that the Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind, that we may know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ; this one is the true God and the life age-during! I JN 5:20 YLT

Some here refuse to use their God given gift. Yes most versions of the Bible use the word "understanding."

Even though the New Testament never states Gentiles are under the ten commandments.
This is not important, just one mention of any commandment is sufficient to impose
the ten commandments.

NOPE!!! Never. That just does not line up with the NT. And I don't need Paul to prove it.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hello Berean.

You are correct, God has finished with theocratic Israel. The nation of Israel
and the Old Covenant were terminated in the first century. A new temple
will never be constructed, modern Israel is a secular nation.

CORRECTOMUNDO!


.

 

[bugkiller]

Each time I post a note filled with scripture --- like this



We will then get an entirely scripture-vacuous post ... in response

Not a text in it.



Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Who goes for that??

Your quote of me has nothing to do with your quote of you. It wasn't even addressing you. You imported it from a response to another.

bugkiller

 

[BABerean2]

Each time I post a note filled with scripture --- like this



We will then get an entirely scripture-vacuous post ... in response

Not a text in it.



Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Who goes for that??

Bob Ryan,

Are you drawing a paycheck from any of the Seventh Day Adventist organizations.



.

 

[klutedavid]

Some would argue that people in the bible take Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" as Laws to be used to delete God's spoken Word in Ex 20 - the TEN Commandments.

Law spoken by God and written in stone - where we are then told in Deut 5 "And He added no more" -- .

Well that sort of guesswork will not hold up to the "Sola Scriptura" test -- and we all know it.

Most impressively - so also do many pro-sunday scholars know it.

They know that the Ten Commandments were not deleted by Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 in either the OT or the NT.

Nor is there a NT text saying 'these two laws delete the OT, delete scripture, delete the commandments of God.."

Eph 6:2 the text many might prefer to religiously avoid says --> "Honor your father and Mother - which is the FIRST commandment with a promise"

Question for the group: -- FIRST commandment WHERE??

first in Lev 19:18???? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

how about in Deut 6:5?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

How about John 13?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

We can all see this. So no debate at all so far.



Is Paul saying "pay no attention to the Commandment" in Eph 6:2?
Does he say "I don't want you to take God's name in vain because by obeying this commandment you will earn you way to heaven"???

Does he say "Honor your father and mother if you feel like it - but don't be thinking that obedience to the Word of God is some sort of sign or fruit of being a Christian"??

Does he say this is the "FIRST Commandment with a promise" as if the reader actually knew about the still-valid -- still-binding TEN Commandments?



If your parents have passed away - are you living in rebellion because you cannot personally speak with them???


Is this reference to the TEN Commandment unit in Eph 6 - and the fact that it still is valid - something you don't wish to discuss?

Hello Bob.

If a person becomes a christian and that person has unbelieving parents.
It does not make much sense for that person to attempt to honor their
parents. The non Christian parents will constantly direct the believing
son or daughter, away from the Christ and not the towards Christ.

 

[klutedavid]

I believe the Scripture follows a very logical progression and unfolding of God's master plan to redeem mankind and prove His incredible love. I see the Apostles involved with Gentiles in Acts 10.I see no confusion here. This lines up very well with the covenant made with Noah.Again I see no confusion here. Paul is very much in line with Jesus on the food issue defiling a person. I see Paul very much in line with Peter's vision in Acts 10 about clean and unclean.Actually no because it is very appealing tot he carnal mind (flesh).Yeppers. Many refuse to believe what the Scripture actually says. The scripture is a love letter to some while others who reject it have no business telling them what their personal love letter says.So be it. They really teach obedience by incidence. There is no such thing.They believe without question or examination what they have been told by people of influence instead of reading the Bible themselves. LLOJ has posted this with reference tot he bolded -

and we have known that the Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind, that we may know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ; this one is the true God and the life age-during! I JN 5:20 YLT

Some here refuse to use their God given gift. Yes most versions of the Bible use the word "understanding."NOPE!!! Never. That just does not line up with the NT. And I don't need Paul to prove it.

bugkiller

Hello Bugkiller.

On the topic of Acts 15, apostles instruction or decrees to the Gentile churches.

You made the claim.

This lines up very well with the covenant made with Noah.

You will need to support your claim with the evidence, Bugkiller.

All I saw in Genesis 9, was the following.

1) No prohibition against eating food sacrificed to idols.

2) A prohibition against murder.

3) A prohibition against eating meat with the blood in it.

Where is food sacrificed to idols and fornication in the Noahic covenant?

 

[klutedavid]

Some would argue that people in the bible take Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" as Laws to be used to delete God's spoken Word in Ex 20 - the TEN Commandments.

Law spoken by God and written in stone - where we are then told in Deut 5 "And He added no more" -- .

Well that sort of guesswork will not hold up to the "Sola Scriptura" test -- and we all know it.

Most impressively - so also do many pro-sunday scholars know it.

They know that the Ten Commandments were not deleted by Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 in either the OT or the NT.

Nor is there a NT text saying 'these two laws delete the OT, delete scripture, delete the commandments of God.."

Eph 6:2 the text many might prefer to religiously avoid says --> "Honor your father and Mother - which is the FIRST commandment with a promise"

Question for the group: -- FIRST commandment WHERE??

first in Lev 19:18???? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

how about in Deut 6:5?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

How about John 13?? is that where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"?? No!!

We can all see this. So no debate at all so far.



Is Paul saying "pay no attention to the Commandment" in Eph 6:2?
Does he say "I don't want you to take God's name in vain because by obeying this commandment you will earn you way to heaven"???

Does he say "Honor your father and mother if you feel like it - but don't be thinking that obedience to the Word of God is some sort of sign or fruit of being a Christian"??

Does he say this is the "FIRST Commandment with a promise" as if the reader actually knew about the still-valid -- still-binding TEN Commandments?



If your parents have passed away - are you living in rebellion because you cannot personally speak with them???


Is this reference to the TEN Commandment unit in Eph 6 - and the fact that it still is valid - something you don't wish to discuss?

Hello Bob.

Your not under the commandment to not commit adultery.

You are under the law of Christ, to not commit sexual immorality.

These two commandments are different commandments.

Adultery is listed under the Old Covenant (Exodus 20).

Sexual immorality is listed under the New Covenant.

If you tell people that they are under the commandment to not commit adultery,
then you are misleading people.

1 Thessalonians 4
2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;

Adultery and sexual immorality are very different words.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

BobRyan said: ↑
Each time I post a note filled with scripture --- like this.......

Your quote of me has nothing to do with your quote of you.
It wasn't even addressing you. You imported it from a response to another.

bugkiller

You noticed that also? ehehe

Bob Ryan,

Are you drawing a paycheck from any of the Seventh Day Adventist organizations.

.

I could use a part time job...........

1Co 9:18
What is my wage G3408 then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge,
that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry and Thy wrath is come and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
and that Thou should give wages G3408 unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints

Rev 22:12
And behold! I come quickly; and my wages G3408 is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be

3408. misthos mis-thos' apparently a primary word; pay for service (literally or figuratively), good or bad:--hire, reward, wages.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/interview-of-sda-pastor-septic-tank-ministry.7407073/
Interview of SDA Pastor Septic Tank Ministry

I conducted this interview myself after seeing this bus parked close to where I work in Seattle.
He seemed like a nice man who is very serious about the Pope stealing the Sabbath, etc. My next interview with him will be on the 1844 subject.

Enjoy.

Viddler.com - Prophecy Bus - Uploaded by pythons

Video review of the exterior of the Bus

.

 

[Travis93]

All I saw in Genesis 9, was the following.

1) No prohibition against eating food sacrificed to idols.

2) A prohibition against murder.

3) A prohibition against eating meat with the blood in it.

Where is food sacrificed to idols and fornication in the Noahic covenant?

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father (incest with father forbidden) and his mother (incest with mother forbidden), and shall cleave unto his (adultery forbidden) wife (fornication forbidden, homosexuality forbidden): and they shall be one flesh (divorce forbidden).

That's my take on the fornication command. I don't see anything about food offered to idols, that's from
Exodus 34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

I don't believe in Noahide theology myself, I think once the law was revealed at Sinai that gentiles must join themselves to Israel to serve God. All the covenant with Noah provides is that God won't flood the earth again, nothing about eternal life like was promised to the people of Israel in Daniel 12:1-2 or a part in the new covenant promised to Judah and Israel only in Jeremiah 31:31-40.