If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[bugkiller]

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

So you think this voids the NC. Why?

1 Chronicles 16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;

Commanded to who?

Have 1000 generations passed since the giving of the law yet? I count about 50 from the law till Jesus according to his genealogy (Luke 3:23-33). Even if you go with a seriously small number of years per generation (maybe people giving birth right when they hit puberty), you still get over 10,000 years after Jesus the law would still be binding.

Binding on who? The righteous (Christian)? No!

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; I Tim 1

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

So you think this voids the NC. Why?Commanded to who?Binding on who? The righteous (Christian)? No!

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; I Tim 1

bugkiller

The law was commanded to all who wanted to be part of the covenant of Israel. If you were outside of the law you were without God, without hope, and had no future; and also under the wrath of God. I'm not sure why people want to appeal to people like that and say "see, God didn't require them to keep the law".

The law is made to correct error. Once you stop breaking a certain commandment you don't need the law to correct you anymore, that's what that passage means. If you are ignoring the law, that puts you in the category of "lawless and disobedient", and you still need the law to set you straight. Oh, and "sinners" is in that list too, so unless you've totally stopped sinning I'd say you better pay attention to the law.

Do you want to be great in the kingdom, or not? As for me, I'm going to make sure I'm teaching men to follow the law.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[1John2:4]

Marriage and the Sabbath are the two institutions that mankind took from Eden after the fall. Satan attacks both of them.

In Rev 14 God says that a division takes place at the end of time just before the second coming - those who "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" vs those who don't. What is interesting is that in that same chapter the Sabbath commandment is quoted in verse 7.

I agree, marriage is under attack as well, good point. When you remove the plumb line (Gods Instructions) everything is subjective.

 

[disciple1]

The law was commanded to all who wanted to be part of the covenant of Israel. If you were outside of the law you were without God, without hope, and had no future; and also under the wrath of God. I'm not sure why people want to appeal to people like that and say "see, God didn't require them to keep the law".

The law is made to correct error. Once you stop breaking a certain commandment you don't need the law to correct you anymore, that's what that passage means. If you are ignoring the law, that puts you in the category of "lawless and disobedient", and you still need the law to set you straight. Oh, and "sinners" is in that list too, so unless you've totally stopped sinning I'd say you better pay attention to the law.

Do you want to be great in the kingdom, or not? As for me, I'm going to make sure I'm teaching men to follow the law.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How can this be if you try to obey the law.
1 Corinthians chapter 15
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
Your not depending on God your depending on your self, even though Christ has been raised.

Romans chapter 4 verses 13-15
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

 

[BobRyan]

How can this be if you try to obey the law.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Romans 8:4-9 it is only the wicked who "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they"

No wonder even the pro-Sunday scholars get this obvious Bible detail

They all admit that we need the Gospel - and they all admit that the NEW Covenant "Writes the LAW of God on the heart and mind " Heb 8:6-10 instead of "Abolishing the Law of God" it "ESTABLISHES the LAW" Rom 3:31

 

[bugkiller]

The law was commanded to all who wanted to be part of the covenant of Israel. If you were outside of the law you were without God, without hope, and had no future; and also under the wrath of God. I'm not sure why people want to appeal to people like that and say "see, God didn't require them to keep the law".

Not the case for the NC. Read John and Acts.

The law is made to correct error. Once you stop breaking a certain commandment you don't need the law to correct you anymore, that's what that passage means. If you are ignoring the law, that puts you in the category of "lawless and disobedient", and you still need the law to set you straight. Oh, and "sinners" is in that list too, so unless you've totally stopped sinning I'd say you better pay attention to the law.

NOPE!!! One can't be disobedient to a law that has been repealed.

Do you want to be great in the kingdom, or not? As for me, I'm going to make sure I'm teaching men to follow the law.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Great! I hope you enjoy your superior status.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Yep, who needs Jesus when one can be saved by obedience to the law?

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

Romans 8:4-9 it is only the wicked who "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they"

Your out of context partial quote and added commentary is misapplied to the wrong group of people.

No wonder even the pro-Sunday scholars get this obvious Bible detail

They all admit that we need the Gospel - and they all admit that the NEW Covenant "Writes the LAW of God on the heart and mind " Heb 8:6-10 instead of "Abolishing the Law of God" it "ESTABLISHES the LAW" Rom 3:31

That law isn't the covenant issued at Sinai. Again you use a partial misapplied quote to promote your false doctrine. Nothing new.

bugkiller

 

[disciple1]

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Romans 8:4-9 it is only the wicked who "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they"

No wonder even the pro-Sunday scholars get this obvious Bible detail

They all admit that we need the Gospel - and they all admit that the NEW Covenant "Writes the LAW of God on the heart and mind " Heb 8:6-10 instead of "Abolishing the Law of God" it "ESTABLISHES the LAW" Rom 3:31

Look at this.
James chapter 2 verse 13 Judgement without mercy will be shown anyone who hasn't been merciful mercy triumphs over judgement.
If you show mercy you will be shown mercy.

 

[1John2:4]

How can this be if you try to obey the law.
1 Corinthians chapter 15
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
Your not depending on God your depending on your self, even though Christ has been raised.

Romans chapter 4 verses 13-15
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

I belive this is talking about how all are counted as righteous through Yeshua. The circumsised (Jew) and uncircumcised(gentiles) are counted as righteous. The law never had the power to save it is His holy standard for righteousness. We should not keep the law to earn righteousness we do it because we are counted as righteous.

 

[Aldebaran]

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Romans 8:4-9 it is only the wicked who "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they"

If this is referring to the original Mosaic law, it is fulfilled by believing upon the One who already fulfilled it. That would be Christ.

No wonder even the pro-Sunday scholars get this obvious Bible detail

I've been to the SDA church, and I noticed a very strong emphasis on what we do, rather than on what Christ did: What types of foods I should eat, how to peel a banana, what day to attend church. It all left me feeling like I was living back in the days of Moses waiting for the day when Christ would fulfill the law that I cannot.

 

[disciple1]

I belive this is talking about how all are counted as righteous through Yeshua. The circumsised (Jew) and uncircumcised(gentiles) are counted as righteous. The law never had the power to save it is His holy standard for righteousness. We should not keep the law to earn righteousness we do it because we are counted as righteous.

I may have misunderstood you I thought you were saying we had to obey the law, I believe we only have to love, and we do that because of Gods kindness to us.
11. If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

12. For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.


18. The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

19. (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

 

[bugkiller]

I didn't say "the previous words" -- you are "quoting you" on that one.

I said that Christ never argues his Word against the Father - rather He claims that He speaks ONLY the words of the Father - and none of His own.

And Jesus didn't bring the law -

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. JN 1

In the Bible - God says "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 - but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."

In the Bible - God says "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27 but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."

Ah some words from Jesus which if you're read as you mean oppose Moses. Thus you second statement above is false.

In the Bible God says "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4 -- but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."

This verse doesn't say the Sabbath remains. The subject is rest according to v 1 of the chapter. The chapter says they shall not enter His rest even while they kept the 7th day Sabbath.

In the Bible God says "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."

You've absolutely no idea about either.

In the NT there is not a single quote of the 3rd commandment - saying not to take God's name in vain -- and you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle." -- as if the Sabbath is like it. But you are wrong in that the Sabbath commandment IS quoted in the NT - in places like Rev 14:7 and in Hebrews 4.

There's absolutely nothing in the verse I can relate to Ex 20:8-11 as a quote.

But the 3rd commandment (to not take God's name in vain) is never quoted at all in the NT - which means "nothing" of course since it is merely a "fluff rule" and not actual Bible exegesis that invents the idea of "deleting whatever is not repeating"

Rev 14:17 - -the Sabbath commandment quoted.
Acts 14:15 - the Sabbath Commandment quoted.
Acts 4:24 - the Sabbath Commandment quoted
Rev 5:13 - the Sabbath Commandment quoted
Rev 10:6 - the Sabbath Commandment quoted
Heb 4:9 - the Sabbath Commandment - commanded
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath MADE for MANKIND"
Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship"

Not even ONE example of that for the 3rd commandment to "not take God's name in vain"!!

Once again I see nothing about a quote from Ex 20:8-11 that I can see. I do see the word Sabbath which alone doesn't qualify as a quote.

Sadly you skipped over the details.

Such as....?

Just not in real life. In real life we have "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God"

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:7

Neither is proof Christians are obligated to the law.

And in Rom 8:4-9 it is only the lost that are at war with the Law of God.

Nope!!!

Hence 1 John 5:3-4.

1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And God's commandment is -

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. I JN 3

<snip>

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

Which have nothing to do with the 10 Cs as the following verse yous eem toa void makes very plain -

.10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. JN 15

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

You don't know what either are.

Rev 14 does not call death "the weekly Sabbath" --

Who is says it does?

And neither does the OT or NT.

And neither do the well-informed pro-sunday scholars.

Rather - Hebrews 4:9 says that the "Sabbath rest that REMAINS for the people of God" is the same one in Psalms 96 at the time of David!!

Where in Ps 96 is the Sabbath referred to? "Rest" is the subject of Heb 4:9 whichha s nothing to do with the 7th day Sabbath.

And neither does the RCC.

God says "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 [/This says nothing about the Sabbath.

not "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind die"

What on earth are you babbling about?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

2 Corinthians 3:7-11New International Version (NIV)
The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death , which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness

It is the same LAW but in a different location: In the New Covenant it is not merely external - rather it is "written on the heart" -- that Law that Jeremiah and his readers would have known as the moral Law of God - Law that defines sin as even Romans 2:19-21 instructs -- and so also does 1 John 3:4 demand it.

NEW Covenant "I WILL WRITE MY LAW on their heart and mind" -- Jeremiah 31, Hebrews 8.

Thus ends the fallacy - of "imaginary law to be made up latter - written on stone instead of the Commandments on stone as written by the finger of God".

It is a not a "different Law" in that location -- rather it is a different location for that Law as known to Jeremiah.

Not according to the word "new," the phrase not according to" nor the word "But."

Indeed same law different location.

According to your eisegesis which doesn't agree with the Bible.

And not a "different Law" in that external-on-stone location

Read the New Covenant Jer 31:31-33 - the Law is on the heart and mind.

The covenant law issued to Israel alone isn't what is written on the heart. JUSt read the passage you referenced.

Read Exodus - where that same Law is on stone.

NOPE!!!!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Which does nothing at all to remove your war-against-the-Sabbath argument from its failure to survive Is 66:23 (which in this case you can't even bring yourself to quote) where we see that for all eternity after the cross -- all mankind will be keeping the Bible OT seventh day Sabbath.

Here then is the text you avoid quoting - while commenting on it.

No wonder EVEN the OT scope for Sabbath is "ALL MANKIND"
"and from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

Because the quote of the text demonstrates the point where your speculation against the Bible Sabbath - falls apart.

Your chosen partial quoted verse says nothing about the Sabbath.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Don't forget Jesus said this about Moses/ Torah.
And those who Yhwh called and chose
DID NOT INSTITUTE a heirarchy but rather pointed others to Christ Jesus.
Those who Yhwh called and chose
AGREE WITH MOSES. (Jesus said plainly).

Jesus said if they listened to Moses, they would listen to Him(Jesus).
If they reject Moses, they reject Him(Jesus).

As for the false heiracrchy in false churches, Jesus says don't listen to them.

TEST BY SCRIPTURE, not by tradition of demons or of man.

Scripture is WHAT YOU ARE QUOTING. So then >
Listen to Scripture. Not to the false counterfeit men (who oppose Moses and oppose Scripture and oppose Jesus) you keep referencing.

NO one can follow both Moses and Jesus at the same time.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Travis93 said: ↑
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Careful - the mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to a great many logical fallacies raised up against the text.

So you think this voids the NC. Why?Commanded to who?Binding on who? The righteous (Christian)? No!

So many errors in such a short bible-void statement.

1. The wild speculation that if you accept a text like Rom 3:31 then you need to delete the entire NC which says that "God writes His LAW on the heart and mind". Who goes for that anyway??
2. Next is to question why Paul would write Rom 3:31 and to what group can Paul mention "Do WE" and "WE establish the LAW" -- as if Paul does not even identify at all with Christians or else the reader failed to read Romans 1 where both believing gentiles and Jews are addressed.
3. Then the live-in-denial deny-all suggestion that Romans 3 is not written to Christians!!!


So then more of Romans 3 -- for those Bible-deniers seeking to avoid the chapter.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

Yet some appear to be at war with that very Law - as if this is what God wants.

 

[Aldebaran]

NO one can follow both Moses and Jesus at the same time.

bugkiller

Not exclusively, but they don't disagree with each other. Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses. Following Jesus is the fulfillment of the law of Moses. At least that's the way I've understood it.

 

[BobRyan]

The law was commanded to all who wanted to be part of the covenant of Israel. If you were outside of the law you were without God, without hope, and had no future; and also under the wrath of God. I'm not sure why people want to appeal to people like that and say "see, God didn't require them to keep the law".

The law is made to correct error. Once you stop breaking a certain commandment you don't need the law to correct you anymore, that's what that passage means. If you are ignoring the law, that puts you in the category of "lawless and disobedient", and you still need the law to set you straight. Oh, and "sinners" is in that list too, so unless you've totally stopped sinning I'd say you better pay attention to the law.

Do you want to be great in the kingdom, or not? As for me, I'm going to make sure I'm teaching men to follow the law.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Good point - but in Romans 8:4-9 Paul identifies a group that is at war with God and His Law - don't expect to get a lot of glowing comments from that group if they should happen to read your post.

 

[BobRyan]

Not exclusively, but they don't disagree with each other. Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses. Following Jesus is the fulfillment of the law of Moses. At least that's the way I've understood it.

Notice what Jesus said about the obligation of others - when it comes to the "Commandment of God" -- the "Word of God" and "Moses said" -- in Mark 7:6-13


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Aldebaran]

Notice what Jesus said about the obligation of others - when it comes to the "Commandment of God" -- the "Word of God" and "Moses said" -- in Mark 7:6-13


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

In the passage you quoted, it sounds like what Jesus is referring to is the additions the Pharisees did to the law, rather than the law of Moses itself.