If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

Berean777 · Jan 16, 2016

BobRyan said:
The text says the JEWS are the enemies of the Gospel --- it does NOT say "salvation is being an enemy of the Gospel" and it does not say that they have salvation via genetics or ancestry. The strong desire to see them saved for the sake of the fathers - is there -- nothing at all about "saved no matter that they are enemies of the gospel".

Acts 13 -
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

Matt 23
32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

"There is NO partiality with God" Romans 2:11 serves as context for what comes later.

Romans 2 says the Jew are LOST first .. and then the gentiles. It also says of the believing Jews that they are SAVED first - and then the Gentiles.

You are trying to get the term "loved" to mean saved. And I keep pointing out - that does not work. John 3:16

God loves all the lost - and that includes the unbelieving Jews - but being the enemy of God is not how one gets to heaven. There is not going to be some special place in heaven for the "Enemies of God that only chose to fight the Gospel" -- no matter what their DNA. Christ told the Jews in Matt 12 that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven.

Now my turn to use your tactic and I second the question that @bugkiller asked of you.

So please give us quotes from the Old Testament, explaining what the gospel was and how it was preached and to whom it was preached and whether the recipients understood it?

Please quote scripture.

You will seldomly find in the Old Testament, recipients of the gospel, who fully comprehended that the Messiah will come to be crucified as the sin offering once and for all. Most Old Testament saints had absolutely no idea of a kingly Messiah dying for the sins of a nation, that is why most Jews rejected Jesus Christ. The idea presented in the Old Testament was cryptic to them and was really meant to be revealed after Messiah was raised from the dead, as a prelude to Pentecost.

It is this valid reasoning as to why the apostles wrote the following....

Luke 24:45-48
44He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

(Above you have the gospel preached to the old testament prophets who didn't comprehend it at all)

45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things.

Think about it for a moment, the very gospel is what Jesus describes in the above versus in bold. if the apostles who saw him, were with him, ate and slept with him and touched him, had absolutely no idea until he opened their eyes to the Gospel, then please tell me how on earth was it revealed to Abraham and the old covenant saints?

In simple the gospel wasn't comprehended by the Old Testament saints, because it was appointed for a future time, when Messiah was to be crucified and then to rise from dead. In fact Jesus tried to hint to Disciples that the Son of Man will suffer, when Peter interrupted him by saying no way Lord, then the Lord rebukes him. So it is evident even the apostles didn't know that he was to be crucified for the sins of many. The future vision shown on the mount of transfiguration, where Jesus tells them not to tell any man until he is raised from the dead. The disciples were dumb founded and asked a completely different question, ignoring what Jesus said, therefore they didn't comprehend what he was saying. This vision pointed to a future event that showed a glorified Lord standing beside Moses and Elijah, who are the symbols of the Law and the prophets. Guess what? the Law and the Prophets was fulfilled in Christ after he was raised. As Jesus would say the only sign that will be given is the sign of Jonah.

When Jesus told his disciples on the mount of transfiguration that he would be raised from the dead, this message completely went past their heads, not understanding or not believing that Messiah can die. However what they ask Jesus is completely mind blowing, they begin to question Jesus as to his authenticity of him being the Messiah, because in their minds they were taken back by the fact that Jesus said he would die, which further emphasised what the Pharisees were telling his disciples that Elijah must come first before the true Messiah. Jesus answers them by saying Elijah has already come, pointing to John the Baptist and then he continues by saying that Elijah will also come to restore all things, which points to the Holy Ghost, who is the temple builder and who comes on the day of Pentecost as the restorer of all things. Even at this point the disciples had absolutely no idea what Jesus was talking about.

Therefore it is true, it was preached to the Old Testament saints, but they understood it not, because the prophetic message was not for them, but a future time, where the Spirit of Grace was to be poured as part and parcel of the Great Commission to preach the Gospel.

Luke 24:48-49
48You are witnesses of these things.49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

After the Gospel was revealed to the apostles by Jesus, they were told to wait until they were empowered by the Holy Ghost reign to preach it into the world. So Grace firstly requires a person to comprehend the Gospel before a recipient can recieve Grace from up on high. Since the Old Testament saints recieved the gospel cryptically without it being comprehended by them, they understood it not and in this regard they were not meant to be the recipients of it in their time, the recipients of the promise is directly tied to the gospel of Grace.

So when did the Old Testament saints comprehend the gospel and who revealed it to them?

1 Peter 3:19
19After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits

The Old Testament saints comprehended it after Jesus arose from the dead and personally preached it to those imprisoned old covenant spirits who were crying under the altar of God.

It is what the apostles confirm in the following versus.....

Hebrews 11:39-40
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

So the Old Testament saints recieved Grace together with the apostles, after Jesus arose from the dead and this is why Jesus said tell no man until he rise up from the dead. The gospel is comprehended by all, only after Jesus arose from the dead and it as at this time that Grace from above was poured, as Peter would quote Joel, in the Acts of the apostles.

No Old Testament Saint was under Grace before the resurrection of Christ.

Meowzltov · Jan 16, 2016

BobRyan said:
But once Adam fell - he was immediately covered by Grace, offered the Gospel - engaged in animal sacrifices pointing to the day that the promise to die for his sins would be fulfilled. We look BACK in time - to the unseen events of Christ's life - Adam looked FORWARD in time to the unseen events of Christ. (Aside from the views God gave him of it).

Thus Gen 3 -- the "proto evangel"
and Heb 4:3 "the GOSPEL was preached to us just as it was TO THEM"
Gal 3:5 "The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" the FATHER of the faithful.
Gal 3 Abraham is not "blessed WITH US" -- rather "WE are blessed WITH Abraham"

Amen!

Meowzltov · Jan 16, 2016

BobRyan said:
The text says the JEWS are the enemies of the Gospel --- it does NOT say "salvation is being an enemy of the Gospel" and it does not say that they have salvation via genetics or ancestry. The strong desire to see them saved for the sake of the fathers - is there -- nothing at all about "saved no matter that they are enemies of the gospel".

It says that THESE enemies of the gospel are part of the elect.

bugkiller · Jan 16, 2016

Berean777 said:
Now my turn to use your tactic and I second the question that @bugkiller asked of you.

So please give us quotes from the Old Testament, explaining what the gospel was and how it was preached and to whom it was preached and whether the recipients understood it?

Please quote scripture.

You will seldomly find in the Old Testament, recipients of the gospel, who fully comprehended that the Messiah will come to be crucified as the sin offering once and for all. Most Old Testament saints had absolutely no idea of a kingly Messiah dying for the sins of a nation, that is why most Jews rejected Jesus Christ. The idea presented in the Old Testament was cryptic to them and was really meant to be revealed after Messiah was raised from the dead, as a prelude to Pentecost.

It is this valid reasoning as to why the apostles wrote the following....

Think about it for a moment, the very gospel is what Jesus describes in the above versus in bold. if the apostles who saw him, were with him, ate and slept with him and touched him, had absolutely no idea until he opened their eyes to the Gospel, then please tell me how on earth was it revealed to Abraham and the old covenant saints?

In simple the gospel wasn't comprehended by the Old Testament saints, because it was appointed for a future time, when Messiah was to be crucified and then to rise from dead. In fact Jesus tried to hint to Disciples that the Son of Man will suffer, when Peter interrupted him by saying no way Lord, then the Lord rebukes him. So it is evident even the apostles didn't know that he was to be crucified for the sins of many. The future vision shown on the mount of transfiguration, where Jesus tells them not to tell any man until he is raised from the dead. The disciples were dumb founded and asked a completely different question, ignoring what Jesus said, therefore they didn't comprehend what he was saying. This vision pointed to a future event that showed a glorified Lord standing beside Moses and Elijah, who are the symbols of the Law and the prophets. Guess what? the Law and the Prophets was fulfilled in Christ after he was raised. As Jesus would say the only sign that will be given is the sign of Jonah.

When Jesus told his disciples on the mount of transfiguration that he would be raised from the dead, this message completely went past their heads, not understanding or not believing that Messiah can die. However what they ask Jesus is completely mind blowing, they begin to question Jesus as to his authenticity of him being the Messiah, because in their minds they were taken back by the fact that Jesus said he would die, which further emphasised what the Pharisees were telling his disciples that Elijah must come first before the true Messiah. Jesus answers them by saying Elijah has already come, pointing to John the Baptist and then he continues by saying that Elijah will also come to restore all things, which points to the Holy Ghost, who is the temple builder and who comes on the day of Pentecost as the restorer of all things. Even at this point the disciples had absolutely no idea what Jesus was talking about.

Therefore it is true, it was preached to the Old Testament saints, but they understood it not, because the prophetic message was not for them, but a future time, where the Spirit of Grace was to be poured as part and parcel of the Great Commission to preach the Gospel.

After the Gospel was revealed to the apostles by Jesus, they were told to wait until they were empowered by the Holy Ghost reign to preach it into the world. So Grace firstly requires a person to comprehend the Gospel before a recipient can recieve Grace from up on high. Since the Old Testament saints recieved the gospel cryptically without it being comprehended by them, they understood it not and in this regard they were not meant to be the recipients of it in their time, the recipients of the promise is directly tied to the gospel of Grace.

So when did the Old Testament saints comprehend the gospel and who revealed it to them?

The Old Testament saints comprehended it after Jesus arose from the dead and personally preached it to those imprisoned old covenant spirits who were crying under the altar of God.

It is what the apostles confirm in the following versus.....

So the Old Testament saints recieved Grace together with the apostles, after Jesus arose from the dead and this is why Jesus said tell no man until he rise up from the dead. The gospel is comprehended by all, only after Jesus arose from the dead and it as at this time that Grace from above was poured, as Peter would quote Joel, in the Acts of the apostles.

No Old Testament Saint was under Grace before the resurrection of Christ.

Excellent post!!

bugkiller

Berean777 · Jan 16, 2016

bugkiller said:
Excellent post!!

bugkiller

Your posts have also been inspiring and supportive. Thankyou beloved in Christ.

BobRyan · Jan 23, 2016

By contrast look at the consistency in the teaching of Christ -

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"The Word of God" the "Commandment of God" ... "My Commandments" the "FIRST commandment With a promise"... They all point one direction and it is not toward rebellion against the Word of God.

david rodriguez · Jan 23, 2016

BobRyan said:
Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

So may argue that all that was before the cross - so pay no attention to that part of "scripture" -- it is not for Christians. Yet "Chrisitan" means - follower of Christ and Christ is speaking both in John 14 - and in Exodus 20.

By contrast to that speculative conclusion we have --

"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

So then what about Christ coming up with a different set of commandments - that are not those of God? Not those of God the Father and thereby negating the Commandments of God to replace them with other commandments - that come from Christ? Is that what we find in the New Testament?

Not according to Jesus' words in John's Gospel.

John 5:19 "19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

John 8:28 "28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 12:49 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John 14: "10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."

Which is why in John 14:15 we see this
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Instead of "keep My Commandments - not My Father's commandments - just mine"

And it is why John 15:10 does not say that either

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And of course God the Father gave Jesus the ministry of "Savior" to the world such that Jesus prayed "Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me - nevertheless not my will - but Thy will be done"

John said - Jesus kept His Father's Commandments.

John said - we should do as Jesus did.
1 John 2: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

==================================================
Jesus is the One that gave us the TEN Commandments - they were spoken by HiM as we see in the NEW Covenant

Heb 8 (And Jer 31:31-33)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Exegesis demands that the moral law of God written on the mind and heart in Jer 31:31-33 is the one that Jeremiah and his readers knew.

Do you view Jesus as opposed to the Father or the two and the Holy Spirit are "ONE God" in your/our monotheistic religion?

==========================

If you oppose the Commandments of God in NT times - then answer this question -

In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??

First commandment where??

Two simple questions - easy answer to each one - Yesterday at 11:09 AM #383
Resolves the entire debate on this thread.

Acts 21:25 "As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication." Perhaps many believe what they believe pertaining to the separation of the Old and the New because of this verse....

BobRyan · Jan 24, 2016

david rodriguez said:
Acts 21:25 "As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication." Perhaps many believe what they believe pertaining to the separation of the Old and the New because of this verse....

indeed in Acts 15 (and in 21) - nothing there about
honoring parents,
or Loving God with all your heart and soul,
nothing there about not stealing
or not bowing down to images and serving them,
nothing there about not coveting and
no word at all there about the Hebrews 4 statement "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

- so if the entire Bible for gentiles could be "Downsized" to just the Acts 15 text and its tiny summary in Acts 21:25 we would have an entirely different Gospel - and entirely different Christianity.

Fortunately Acts 15 is about a very specific issue for gentile Christians - which is whether it is 'enough' that scripture is "preached every Sabbath" for them as in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 - or whether they also need to "become Jews" in circumcision and all the ceremonies. A very specific issue that does not all all downsize the list of commands - the examples just given.

Bob S · Jan 24, 2016

BobRyan said:
indeed in Acts 15 (and in 21) - nothing there about
honoring parents,
or Loving God with all your heart and soul,
nothing there about not stealing
or not bowing down to images and serving them,
nothing there about not coveting

Need what is written in our hearts be rehashed in Acts 15? Jesus law of love which contains all issues dealing with morality is and has been written on our hearts.

and
no word at all there about the Hebrews 4 statement "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

Oh yes, the verses SDAs twist to make is appear that old ritual day, given only to Israel, is recognized in the New Covenant.
Might I remind you that the book of Hebrews is dealing with Jews who already held fast to observing a day. The writer was not concerned about the seventh-day Sabbath. He was concerned of the greater rest, the one found in Jesus Heb 4:
7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

https://www.gci.org/bible/hebrews4

The ancient Israelites, who had the Sabbath, did not enter the rest he is talking about. God's rest is entered by faith — by believing the gospel (vs. 3-4). The author is not interested in a day of the week — he is concerned about how people respond to Jesus. A person who keeps the weekly Sabbath but rejects Christ has not entered God's rest. We enter God's rest only by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Why then does he call this a Sabbath-rest? By using this word, he indicates that this is what the Sabbath pointed to. Just as the bronze snake pointed to Jesus' crucifixion, and the washings pointed to forgiveness, and the sacrifices pointed to Jesus, similarly, the weekly Sabbath pointed to something spiritual: our rest through faith in Christ.

It is available — we may enter God's rest. Don't put it off — do it today!

"Anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his" (v. 10). God rested from his creative work, but what kind of work do we rest from? What do we quit doing when we come to have faith in Christ? The work of trying to earn our salvation, the work of trying to qualify for the kingdom. When we look to Jesus for our salvation, we quit looking to ourselves.

- so if the entire Bible for gentiles could be "Downsized" to just the Acts 15 text and its tiny summary in Acts 21:25 we would have an entirely different Gospel - and entirely different Christianity.

Strawman conclusion my friend.

Fortunately Acts 15 is about a very specific issue for gentile Christians - which is whether it is 'enough' that scripture is "preached every Sabbath" for them as in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 - or whether they also need to "become Jews" in circumcision and all the ceremonies. A very specific issue that does not all all downsize the list of commands - the examples just given.

May I remind you that 2Cor3:7-11 does downsize the list of commands.

BobRyan · Jan 24, 2016

david rodriguez said:
Acts 21:25 "As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication." Perhaps many believe what they believe pertaining to the separation of the Old and the New because of this verse....

indeed in Acts 15 (and in 21) - nothing there about
honoring parents,
or Loving God with all your heart and soul,
nothing there about not stealing
or not bowing down to images and serving them,
nothing there about not coveting and
no word at all there about the Hebrews 4 statement "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

- so if the entire Bible for gentiles could be "Downsized" to just the Acts 15 text and its tiny summary in Acts 21:25 we would have an entirely different Gospel - and entirely different Christianity.

Fortunately Acts 15 is about a very specific issue for gentile Christians - which is whether it is 'enough' that scripture is "preached every Sabbath" for them as in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 - or whether they also need to "become Jews" in circumcision and all the ceremonies. A very specific issue that does not all all downsize the list of commands - the examples just given.

Bob S said:
Need what is written in our hearts be rehashed in Acts 15? Jesus law of love which contains all issues dealing with morality is and has been written on our hearts.
.

Jer 31:31-33 says that what is written in our hearts is the LAW that Jeremiah and his readers knew about.

bugkiller · Jan 24, 2016

BobRyan said:
By contrast look at the consistency in the teaching of Christ -

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"The Word of God" the "Commandment of God" ... "My Commandments" the "FIRST commandment With a promise"... They all point one direction and it is not toward rebellion against the Word of God.

Is LK 24 as has been point out to you the teaching of Jesus?

Why do you continue to post MK 7?

Why don't you use JN 15:10 instead of 14:15?

Why do you emphasize keeping the law over believing in the work of the Cross emphasizing grace?

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jan 24, 2016

david rodriguez said:
Acts 21:25 "As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication." Perhaps many believe what they believe pertaining to the separation of the Old and the New because of this verse....

Hardly

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jan 24, 2016

BobRyan said:
indeed in Acts 15 (and in 21) - nothing there about
honoring parents,
or Loving God with all your heart and soul,
nothing there about not stealing
or not bowing down to images and serving them,
nothing there about not coveting and
no word at all there about the Hebrews 4 statement "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

This isn't a reference to the 7th day Sabbath.

Jesus offers this rest in Him -

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Jesus isn't offering them something they already have. There's no rest for the soul in the law.

- so if the entire Bible for gentiles could be "Downsized" to just the Acts 15 text and its tiny summary in Acts 21:25 we would have an entirely different Gospel - and entirely different Christianity.

Fortunately Acts 15 is about a very specific issue for gentile Christians - which is whether it is 'enough' that scripture is "preached every Sabbath" for them as in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 - or whether they also need to "become Jews" in circumcision and all the ceremonies. A very specific issue that does not all all downsize the list of commands - the examples just given.

This is an very unfair and unreasonable treatment of Acts 15. There is no request nor requirement to attend the synagogue which you don't do yourself. IOW your not preforming as you require. You have your own non Jewish religion with different requirements of or from the law. The synagogue isn't for the purpose of evangelism of Gentiles, its a fellowship of Jews and Judaism adherents only. Furthermore the argument or issue in Acts 15 is about requiring new converts to take on Judaism. They were told flat out no and that they had no authority to so teach. You preach an aberrant form of Judaism opposed to Christianity.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jan 24, 2016

Bob S said:
Need what is written in our hearts be rehashed in Acts 15? Jesus law of love which contains all issues dealing with morality is and has been written on our hearts.

Oh yes, the verses SDAs twist to make is appear that old ritual day, given only to Israel, is recognized in the New Covenant.
Might I remind you that the book of Hebrews is dealing with Jews who already held fast to observing a day. The writer was not concerned about the seventh-day Sabbath. He was concerned of the greater rest, the one found in Jesus Heb 4:
7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

https://www.gci.org/bible/hebrews4

The ancient Israelites, who had the Sabbath, did not enter the rest he is talking about. God's rest is entered by faith — by believing the gospel (vs. 3-4). The author is not interested in a day of the week — he is concerned about how people respond to Jesus. A person who keeps the weekly Sabbath but rejects Christ has not entered God's rest. We enter God's rest only by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Why then does he call this a Sabbath-rest? By using this word, he indicates that this is what the Sabbath pointed to. Just as the bronze snake pointed to Jesus' crucifixion, and the washings pointed to forgiveness, and the sacrifices pointed to Jesus, similarly, the weekly Sabbath pointed to something spiritual: our rest through faith in Christ.

It is available — we may enter God's rest. Don't put it off — do it today!

"Anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his" (v. 10). God rested from his creative work, but what kind of work do we rest from? What do we quit doing when we come to have faith in Christ? The work of trying to earn our salvation, the work of trying to qualify for the kingdom. When we look to Jesus for our salvation, we quit looking to ourselves.

Strawman conclusion my friend.

May I remind you that 2Cor3:7-11 does downsize the list of commands.

This rest you refer to is exactly what Jesus offered in Mat 11:28-30.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jan 24, 2016

BobRyan said:
indeed in Acts 15 (and in 21) - nothing there about
honoring parents,
or Loving God with all your heart and soul,
nothing there about not stealing
or not bowing down to images and serving them,
nothing there about not coveting and
no word at all there about the Hebrews 4 statement "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

- so if the entire Bible for gentiles could be "Downsized" to just the Acts 15 text and its tiny summary in Acts 21:25 we would have an entirely different Gospel - and entirely different Christianity.

Fortunately Acts 15 is about a very specific issue for gentile Christians - which is whether it is 'enough' that scripture is "preached every Sabbath" for them as in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 - or whether they also need to "become Jews" in circumcision and all the ceremonies. A very specific issue that does not all all downsize the list of commands - the examples just given.

Jer 31:31-33 says that what is written in our hearts is the LAW that Jeremiah and his readers knew about.

That is exactly what Jer 31:33 states. It doesn't state anything about the 10 Cs given exclusively to Israel.

bugkiller

david rodriguez · Jan 24, 2016

Jesus said...Matthew 23:24-35 "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous. And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."

Does this mean anything to anyone about Israel, the Prophets, the Old Testament, the Christian, the evangelizing with 'love', the refusal to obey God, the ones who appear righteous, the iniquity within ourselves, the murdering of those who speak God's commandments, the damnation of hell, the persecution to the wise men, the persecution to the scribes, the scourging of God's sent ones in God's temple by those that appear righteous, (thinking they offer God service), the righteous blood that has been shed, the righteous blood that has been shed by the those that 'appear righteous'? Is everyone sure that 'love is all we need?'

And please don't tell me that being like a Pharisee or a scribe has nothing to with our own personal lives. Are you better and more righteous in Godliness than a Pharisee or scribe?

bugkiller · Jan 24, 2016

david rodriguez said:
Jesus said...Matthew 23:24-35 "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous. And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."

Does this mean anything to anyone about Israel, the Prophets, the Old Testament, the Christian, the evangelizing with 'love', the refusal to obey God, the ones who appear righteous, the iniquity within ourselves, the murdering of those who speak God's commandments, the damnation of hell, the persecution to the wise men, the persecution to the scribes, the scourging of God's sent ones in God's temple by those that appear righteous, (thinking they offer God service), the righteous blood that has been shed, the righteous blood that has been shed by the those that 'appear righteous'? Is everyone sure that 'love is all we need?'

And please don't tell me that being like a Pharisee or a scribe has nothing to with our own personal lives. Are you better and more righteous in Godliness than a Pharisee or scribe?

We've considered what your religious organization teaches and practices.

bugkiller

BobRyan · Feb 8, 2016

david rodriguez said:
'

And please don't tell me that being like a Pharisee or a scribe has nothing to with our own personal lives. Are you better and more righteous in Godliness than a Pharisee or scribe?

And we have this - from page one of this thread.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

So also in Matt 28 - the disciples were to go into all the world "teaching them all things whatsoever I commanded you"

BobRyan · Feb 8, 2016

indeed in Acts 15 (and in 21) - nothing there about honoring parents,
or Loving God with all your heart and soul,
nothing there about not stealing
or not bowing down to images and serving them,
nothing there about not coveting and
no word at all there about the Hebrews 4 statement "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

- so if the entire Bible for gentiles could be "Downsized" to just the Acts 15 text and its tiny summary in Acts 21:25 we would have an entirely different Gospel - and entirely different Christianity.

Fortunately Acts 15 is about a very specific issue for gentile Christians - which is whether it is 'enough' that scripture is "preached every Sabbath" for them as in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 - or whether they also need to "become Jews" in circumcision and all the ceremonies. A very specific issue that does not all all downsize the list of commands - the examples just given.

Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 -- notice that in Acts 18 it is "every Sabbath"

bugkiller said:
This isn't a reference to the 7th day Sabbath.

The speculation you offer at that point is not supported by the text.

Jesus offers this rest in Him -
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The Gospel was the SAME OT and NT - in terms of saved by grace through faith. And Jesus said that in Matt 11 - BEFORE the cross - because the rest that we have in Christ is not 'rebellion against God's Word' -- as even the Baptist Confession of Faith and D.L. Moody point out. So Christ was not calling for rebellion against the TEN Commandments as if that was a kind of "rebellion rest" designed to please those at war against the LAW of God.

bugkiller · Feb 8, 2016

BobRyan said:
indeed in Acts 15 (and in 21) - nothing there about honoring parents,
or Loving God with all your heart and soul,
nothing there about not stealing
or not bowing down to images and serving them,
nothing there about not coveting and
no word at all there about the Hebrews 4 statement "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

- so if the entire Bible for gentiles could be "Downsized" to just the Acts 15 text and its tiny summary in Acts 21:25 we would have an entirely different Gospel - and entirely different Christianity.

Fortunately Acts 15 is about a very specific issue for gentile Christians - which is whether it is 'enough' that scripture is "preached every Sabbath" for them as in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 - or whether they also need to "become Jews" in circumcision and all the ceremonies. A very specific issue that does not all all downsize the list of commands - the examples just given.

Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 -- notice that in Acts 18 it is "every Sabbath"

The speculation you offer at that point is not supported by the text.

The Gospel was the SAME OT and NT - in terms of saved by grace through faith. And Jesus said that in Matt 11 - BEFORE the cross - because the rest that we have in Christ is not 'rebellion against God's Word' -- as even the Baptist Confession of Faith and D.L. Moody point out. So Christ was not calling for rebellion against the TEN Commandments as if that was a kind of "rebellion rest" designed to please those at war against the LAW of God.

Clever but no sale.

bugkiller

If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Freylekher Yid

Freylekher Yid

Well-Known Member

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Junior Member

Active Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency