If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

True Science said:

Colossians when talking about let no one judge you, when it says holy says it says, in part or a particular of a holy day, in Greek. I think it is crucial to understanding the passage correctly and shows that they were keeping them and that is why it is talking about a particular part of a festival, not the whole thing.

Galatians literally in Greek doesn't just have the meaning of mere observation, but it can be translated as such: " Ye scrupulously [in a bad way] observe days, and months, and times, and years." And I'm sure it has that meaning here. For he is comparing them doing this to going back to paganism. But the Law of God is not to be evil spoken of like this. Paul would never do this. He has something specific in mind. I think it has something to do with thinking they are still under the Old Covenant and that they believe they have to keep the whole Law of Moses to the Letter by going up to Jerusalem to observe these things under the Jewish leadership, or else they cannot have atonement.It seems Paul is also worried about them becoming Jews under the Jewish leadership and therefore they have to submit to them. Since they are gentiles under the Roman rule they are free from having to obey the Roman backed Jewish leadership at all in Jerusalem, and that must be why Paul is also so careful with the issue of them getting circumcised. He doesn't want them thinking that they are under the Old Covenant for salvation and that the Jews are legitimate leadership of this, and that only through this can they have atonement/justification.

Click to expand...

True Science said:

Peter already warned us about Paul's letters. I don't know why people don't listen to it. Well I guess I'm pretty sure I know why a lot of people don't.

Click to expand...

Your assertions don't jive with Acts 15. Also, In Colossians Paul referred to the Sabbaths as shadows, just as we see in Hebrews ten concerning the Levitical priesthood, which are also shadows, and that doesn't jive with your assertions either. Surely Paul wasn't suggesting that we should observe the Levitical code in "less scrupulous way", and so neither is Colossians saying we should observe Sabbaths and festivals in less scrupulous ways. If both Sabbath and the Levitical priesthood are shadows, then I would assume that both are unnecessary, no matter how you observe them.

[deleted]

@ True Science

Also, with your assertions about Peters warning, you seem to be suggesting that if we don't observe holy days that we are being lawless. That assertion doesn't jive with Romans 13 and 14.

[deleted]

True Science said:

Yes they ARE shadows of things to come. Not that have already come, but are yet to still come. Your interpretation doesn't jive with the OT prophesies of the New Covenant and the Kingdom, and a lot of other things in the OT and NT, and also the extra books, which I'm sure you reject. My interpretation fits with everything as a whole. You have so many holes. But you probably believe in Faith Alone, Inherited Inability, and maybe even OSAS, so I doubt you will be convinced.

Peter said people twist Paul's letters in favor of perverting grace in to lawlessness, not perverting it into lawfulness. He wasn't worried that people would twist Paul's letters to say you have to obey God's Ways or else you will be damned, he was worried people would teach you don't have to obey God's Ways anymore but will still be saved.

Click to expand...

I would suggest that you are guilty of twisting Paul's words, perhaps not falling into lawless error maybe, but twisting none the less. There are no holes in what I have said. Its quite simply a matter of liberty. I believe in obeying rules, but I don't believe we must live like Old testament Jews who followed holydays, festivals and the Levitical code. I believe that the apostles commanded us to observe what we must obey, just as Christ commissioned them to do, and they do not command us to follow any holy day or festival anywhere in any of their writings. Its quite simply a matter of following their commands. They teach us to understand works of the flesh verses fruit of the spirit, and they teach us to sow to the spirit rather than the flesh. Its not like I'm lawless, I simply follow the commands of the apostles and of Christ. No where do they command anyone to observe any holy day. Surely if holy days were important then we would have at least one command teaching us to observe them, but we don't. Their other commands are reiterated numerous times, but they do not issue even a single command to observe any holy days, not even once. However their teaching on liberty does seem to lead us away from observing such things, which would explain the lack of any such command from them.

[deleted]

True Science said:

I don't take Romans 14 as being about the Law. Here's a major reason:

"Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes." Deut. 12:8 KJV

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Proverbs 21:2 KJV

VS:

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Romans 14:5 KJV

And if you say that now we have liberty to do whatever we want vs. the bondage of the Law, Psalms 119 says the Law is liberty, and David was "under the Law" and really didn't seem to think it is bondage. James agrees. God wasn't too happy with the Israelites who said the Law was bondage and didn't want to do it:

.

Click to expand...

Another flawed assertion on your part. First off, i have submitted to the commands of Christ and His apostles, therefore i admt i am not "right in my own eyes" because I admit that i need instruction, so again you're misaaplying scripture.


Secondly, Romans 14 is not saying that we can do whatever is right in our own eyes, but instead it is saying that if you are weak in faith and believe that you can only eat certain foods, or that one day is more holy than another, then you should follow your conscience. However, Romans 14 is talking only about food and holy days, but its not suggesting that we can have liberty from the commands of Christ and His apostles. Your understanding is being blinded by your understanding of Gods commands for the Church. You are confusing Gods commands for the Church with Gods commands for Ancient Israel.

Also, please try not to spam so much scripture at one time, i had to delete much of it just so i could post my reply, because the entirety of your post and my reply exceeded 1000 characters

[deleted]

True Science said:

I have studied this issue in depth for years, taking everything into account possible. I have wrestled with this issue for a long time. Recently I came to the conclusion that I am at now as the most logical one. I'm not budging anymore. I know the truth now generally about this issue. You are very ignorant about many things and therefore assume many things with your narrow-minded view. I hope it is not willfull.

Click to expand...

I have studied it for a long time as well. I have heard every angle. I know the truth as well. Please, by all means follow what you wish, that however doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Poster0 said:

Bob is right. There is no biblical evidence that Christians treated Sunday as if it were holy. They met everyday of the week, not just on Sunday.

Click to expand...

Please show where it states they met every day of the week. Thanks.

Poster0 said:

In the book of Acts we see that the early church met everyday, so they surely gathered together on Saturday, Sunday, Monday and every other day. Sunday is not the Lords day, its just a day that people call the Lords day.

Click to expand...

Because they pooled all their resources it was necessary for them to gather each day to distribute what was needed for each person's needs for that day.

Why do you think that the early Christians called Sunday the Lord's day? It is a historical record that they did call the first day of the week "the Lord's day."

Justin Martyr

"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we [Christians] all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

Justin Martyr, early church father, explains to the Jew Trypho that Christians do not observe fleshly circumcision and the Jewish Sabbaths and the Jewish feasts (new moons for example). These laws were given to the Jews to observe because of their transgressions and the hardness of their hearts and their unrighteousness.

Because Jesus took away our transgressions on the cross and then rose from the dead on Sunday, He redeemed us from our unrighteousness. This is why Christians worship God on Sunday. Because of Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection from the dead, we all can be spiritually renewed if we choose to and thus have fellowship with God.


Justin Martyr learned from his predecessors that Christians worshiped God on Sunday just like Timothy and Titus and other early church fathers learned the practices of the faith from their predecessors.


2 Timothy 2:1-3
"You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3 You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ." nkjv


The Didache

"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

BobRyan said:

The "early church Fathers" -- Paul, James, John, Luke, Peter -- wrote about what they were actually doing IN the first century.

Sadly they are to be dismissed in favor of a virtual minefield of forged documents and sketchy evidence in later centuries.

Well I am not one of those who makes that exchange.

Click to expand...

In order for the Jewish Christians to convert other Jews to Christianity, where do you suppose would be the best place for the apostles to address a great number of them in one place at a specific time?

I'd say the best place to speak to a great number of gathered Jews would be in their synagogues on their Sabbath days. I think that is why the Gospels state the fact that they preached in the synagogues on the Sabbath. Seems reasonable to me.

True Science said:

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church interprets the Acts 15 Council pretty much the same as we Nazarenes do. It is very interesting. Nazarenes and Ethiopians both have very ancient roots. But the Nazarenes are even more ancient. It's right in Acts. The the Nazarenes, the Way.

Click to expand...

Where are the Nazarene's historical documents stored? Can we view them online?

[deleted]

True Science said:

Peter already warned us about Paul's letters. I don't know why people don't listen to it. Well I guess I'm pretty sure I know why a lot of people don't.

Click to expand...

2 Peter 3:16
"as also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

Peter is speaking about people who read Paul's letters and make their own interpretations of what Paul wrote instead of listening to what the Church's bishops teach that Paul's letters mean.

If people are not taught the correct interpretations of the Scriptures by the men in authority in the Church, they will definitely make heretical errors in their interpretations.

2 Timothy 2:1-2
"You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."

People who are untaught by the authority of the church are unstable in their beliefs because their beliefs are not supported on the solid foundation of the authority of Jesus Christ's Church which is the apostles and their successors.

1 Timothy 3:15
"if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."

The authority of the apostles' successors was given to them by a specific type of laying on of the hands [priestly ordination] by the apostles/elders and this is noted in 2 Timothy 1:6 and [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy+5:22&version=NIV']1 Timothy 5:22.[/URL]

The Church's leaders/bishops were given authority by Jesus Christ:

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Matthew 18:15-18
“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will bed bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

I'm also "pretty sure I know why a lot of people don't" listen to Peter's warning.

A lot of people simply choose to despise the authority that Jesus gave to His Church's appointed leaders and their authorized successors and so these despisors of authority believe that their own personal interpretations of the Scriptures are truthful, but in fact they are heretical.

Jan001 said:

Please show where it states they met every day of the week. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Acts chapter 2

Jan001 said:

Because they pooled all their resources it was necessary for them to gather each day to distribute what was needed for each person's needs for that day.

Why do you think that the early Christians called Sunday the Lord's day? It is a historical record that they did call the first day of the week "the Lord's day."

Justin Martyr

"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we [Christians] all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

Justin Martyr, early church father, explains to the Jew Trypho that Christians do not observe fleshly circumcision and the Jewish Sabbaths and the Jewish feasts (new moons for example). These laws were given to the Jews to observe because of their transgressions and the hardness of their hearts and their unrighteousness.

Because Jesus took away our transgressions on the cross and then rose from the dead on Sunday, He redeemed us from our unrighteousness. This is why Christians worship God on Sunday. Because of Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection from the dead, we all can be spiritually renewed if we choose to and thus have fellowship with God.


Justin Martyr learned from his predecessors that Christians worshiped God on Sunday just like Timothy and Titus and other early church fathers learned the practices of the faith from their predecessors.


2 Timothy 2:1-3
"You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3 You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ." nkjv


The Didache

"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

Click to expand...

I don't recognize those records. I only recognize scripture. But hey, if you want to follow holy days go ahead. I'll worship God any day I choose.

Jan001 said:

2 Peter 3:16
"as also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

Peter is speaking about people who read Paul's letters and make their own interpretations of what Paul wrote instead of listening to what the Church's bishops teach that Paul's letters mean.

If people are not taught the correct interpretations of the Scriptures by the men in authority in the Church, they will definitely make heretical errors in their interpretations.

2 Timothy 2:1-2
"You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."

People who are untaught by the authority of the church are unstable in their beliefs because their beliefs are not supported on the solid foundation of the authority of Jesus Christ's Church which is the apostles and their successors.

1 Timothy 3:15
"if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."

The authority of the apostles' successors was given to them by a specific type of laying on of the hands [priestly ordination] by the apostles/elders and this is noted in 2 Timothy 1:6 and [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy+5:22&version=NIV']1 Timothy 5:22.[/URL]
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']The Church's leaders/bishops were given authority by Jesus Christ:
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']Luke 10:16
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']Matthew 18:15-18
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will bed bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']I'm also "pretty sure I know why a lot of people don't" listen to Peter's warning.
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']A lot of people simply choose to despise the authority that Jesus gave to His Church's appointed leaders and their authorized successors and so these despisors of authority believe that their own personal interpretations of the Scriptures are truthful, but in fact they are heretical.[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

Click to expand...

[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV'][URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+1:6&version=NIV']Catholics have no credibility when it comes to criticizing anyone. I don't recognize Catholic authority either.[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

Its unspiritual to debate and argue over observing something as silly as what day of week we should attend Church. I'll be bowing out now.

True Science said:

Still not listening to Peter I see.

Click to expand...

Do you mean this warning?


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


Yes. That was some warning... about... our beloved brother Paul... and according to the wisdom Paul had written to them...

Even though Paul said in Galatians chapter 4 that the Sinai covenant was bondage that should be cast out, we should compare those words to the Jerusalem Council found in Acts chapter 15, where Peter said...



Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

And the decision of Peter and the others was...


Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;


Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


If you are trying to produce a disagreement between Peter and Paul you would need to go to the Book of Galatians, where Peter was wrong and Paul had to correct him regarding the behavior of the Judaizers.



.