If you kill someone

[TheyCallMeDavid]

One seemingly small head blow to concrete can cause a small brain bleed that quickly can turn into a hemorrhagic stroke which can lead to significant loss of function and death. It would not need to come from a fall of great distance or great force. Add either of those and there exists the potential for sudden death. I don't care if it is a scuffle or a child who falls off a tricycle. There NO such an animal as a "safe" way to hit the head to concrete...even once.

To each his own. I personally wouldn't shoot someone if they hit my head against the concrete in a brawl unless it got worse and so long as I felt that it wasn't life threatening to me. Firing a bullet into someones chest is an absolute last resort imho .

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

First of all, Zimmerman had a concealed license and you don't get those without taking a class teaching both safety and responsibility.

Second of all, how do you think Neighborhood Watch's work?...if you can't locate the suspect when the police get there, calling the police is worthless act of futility. You need to WATCH them and know where they went...which can't be done by hiding in your car or going home.

First of all, a person taking a class to learn both safety and responsibility with the firearm is mandatory at least in Florida ... but it doesn't mean that the Persons character and temperament are necessarily of a responsible nature . You can bet your life that countless People have gotton their concealed carry permit and shouldn't have.

Second, its up to us to let the Police do their thing and you can provide as much information as necessary to help them. So what if they couldn't find the Kid that night...he didn't commit a crime anyway other than looking suspicious . Zimmerman was told by the Police Dispatcher to NOT PROCEED -- Z disobeyed that and went looking for the Kid when he should have obeyed an authority higher than himself. If he had, a 17 year old Kid would be alive today / his family and Z's family wouldn't have gone thru what they have / Z wouldn't be in the current position hes in right now with no one wanting to hire him , being broke, owing his Defense Team , and being labeled as an irresponsible disobedient Person ..putting it mildly. His life is ruined and a Kid is dead all because he didn't want to listen to the Police order for him to back down and for that he should really get some jail time in addition to be ostracized in society.

 

[blackribbon]

To each his own. I personally wouldn't shoot someone if they hit my head against the concrete in a brawl unless it got worse and so long as I felt that it wasn't life threatening to me. Firing a bullet into someones chest is an absolute last resort imho .

What you are obviously not getting is that a head to the concrete CAN easily be just as deadly as a bullet in the chest...and you won't know until you are DEAD. It happens that fast. A bleed inside the skull is not visible and there is no where for that blood to go but can end your life in minutes. A cracked skull also might not produce much blood visibly but also can be a very deadly injury. A brawl where someone is knocking your head into the concrete IS life threatening and does call for drastic measures.

 

[blackribbon]

First of all, a person taking a class to learn both safety and responsibility with the firearm is mandatory at least in Florida ... but it doesn't mean that the Persons character and temperament are necessarily of a responsible nature . You can bet your life that countless People have gotton their concealed carry permit and shouldn't have.

Second, its up to us to let the Police do their thing and you can provide as much information as necessary to help them. So what if they couldn't find the Kid that night...he didn't commit a crime anyway other than looking suspicious . Zimmerman was told by the Police Dispatcher to NOT PROCEED -- Z disobeyed that and went looking for the Kid when he should have obeyed an authority higher than himself. If he had, a 17 year old Kid would be alive today / his family and Z's family wouldn't have gone thru what they have / Z wouldn't be in the current position hes in right now with no one wanting to hire him , being broke, owing his Defense Team , and being labeled as an irresponsible disobedient Person ..putting it mildly. His life is ruined and a Kid is dead all because he didn't want to listen to the Police order for him to back down and for that he should really get some jail time in addition to be ostracized in society.

Most police dispatcher are NOT POLICE. They are not a "higher authority" of any sort. He did not disobey a POLICE order.

And have you ever attended a concealed weapons class or at least know anyone first hand who has. I have been told by my friends that have that they are much less likely to use that gun after attending that class, than they would have before. And your argument was that he needed to have at least watched a video...he was trained and licensed.

Maybe he did use it wisely...to keep his wife from becoming a widow that night. He had every bit as much right (if not more) to be walking through his OWN neighborhood that night and not expect to be jumped in the dark by some almost grown punk kid who was visiting the area who had an attitude problem. He had no reason to have to hide out in his car or go home and wait for the police to arrive. He was "on watch" for someone who had been breaking into homes not a violent criminal.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

What you are obviously not getting is that a head to the concrete CAN easily be just as deadly as a bullet in the chest...and you won't know until you are DEAD. It happens that fast. A bleed inside the skull is not visible and there is no where for that blood to go but can end your life in minutes. A cracked skull also might not produce much blood visibly but also can be a very deadly injury. A brawl where someone is knocking your head into the concrete IS life threatening and does call for drastic measures.

I get it. It would all depend on what is going down at the time whether I would shot or not.

 

[bhsmte]

To each his own. I personally wouldn't shoot someone if they hit my head against the concrete in a brawl unless it got worse and so long as I felt that it wasn't life threatening to me. Firing a bullet into someones chest is an absolute last resort imho .

You are entitled to your opinion.

With that said, you should examine the purpose of using deadly force in self defense laws, because they are designed, to PREVENT someone from great bodily harm or death, not wait for those same things to occur, because then, a person is unable to defend themselves.

So, when a person has their attacker on top of them, reigning blows and having their head hit against concrete (and has the injuries and eye witnesses to show this happened), how long are they supposed to wait until they act to protect themselves? The very next blow to the concrete could very well render someone unconscious, unable to protect themselves and even cause permanent injury.

I have said this before, but will repeat, if the police would have arrived sooner and broke up the confrontation before Zimmerman acted, Martin would have been arrested for assault.

 

[mjmcmillan]

This whole thing escalated because two hotheads let their macho get in the way of better judgement.

I would put the onus on GZ, however, because he does appear to have pushed the issue to the point where physical altercation was unavoidable. He could have backed off-- and was in fact instructed to do so-- long before it came to blows.

I'm not so sure about Martin. Those who say he should have headed home may not be right. He had an unknown following him, no uniform or identification being displayed but acting belligerently from what I hear--- would YOU go home and lead this man to YOUR house??? I think not. You'd want to understand what the older man's beef was about before you led him to your front door and risked your family's life as well as your own.

Then the fight broke out, and we really only have the word of the survivor for what really happened. I am to this day not as clear as I'd like to be about what really went down that night.

I will say this. I read an awful lot of pro-concealed carry stuff on the forums, and frankly a lot of the guys wanting to carry scare me thinking that they have a box of rubber bands, much less a gun. These are guys who seem to be looking for trouble so they can shoot somebody and call it self defense. Some of these guys are the very last who should be allowed to have guns, and their writings prove it.

If your gun is an extension of your manhood, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ARMED!. End of story.

 

[dayhiker]

mjm .. I agree with you.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

You are entitled to your opinion.

With that said, you should examine the purpose of using deadly force in self defense laws, because they are designed, to PREVENT someone from great bodily harm or death, not wait for those same things to occur, because then, a person is unable to defend themselves.

So, when a person has their attacker on top of them, reigning blows and having their head hit against concrete (and has the injuries and eye witnesses to show this happened), how long are they supposed to wait until they act to protect themselves? The very next blow to the concrete could very well render someone unconscious, unable to protect themselves and even cause permanent injury.

I have said this before, but will repeat, if the police would have arrived sooner and broke up the confrontation before Zimmerman acted, Martin would have been arrested for assault.

Every situation is different and One would have to be there to determine if deadly force was required. I may have done the same thing depending on the situation and how I truly felt at the time, or, I may have not . We can speculate what we do in a situation but going thru it first hand is sometimes different than surmising .

I know one thing as a Gun owner who carries, I hope I never ever have to squeeze the trigger on someone because the fallout from that even if im justified, is going to make for a poor future with civil proceedings, the family perhaps retaliating in at least vandalism to property, perhaps falling into a stigma concerning the Community One lives in, financial ruin with litigation , probably having to move somewhere else, change my appearance , and having to live with the horror of the crime scene ; is it all worth sparing my own life ? Yes it is...but its another life ruined . The Defenders .

 

[bhsmte]

This whole thing escalated because two hotheads let their macho get in the way of better judgement.

What did Zimmerman do that would be considered; "hot headed"?

I would put the onus on GZ, however, because he does appear to have pushed the issue to the point where physical altercation was unavoidable. He could have backed off-- and was in fact instructed to do so-- long before it came to blows.

What evidence produced at trial showed Zimmerman pushed this issue to the point of an "unavoidable confrontation"?

I'm not so sure about Martin. Those who say he should have headed home may not be right. He had an unknown following him, no uniform or identification being displayed but acting belligerently from what I hear--- would YOU go home and lead this man to YOUR house??? I think not. You'd want to understand what the older man's beef was about before you led him to your front door and risked your family's life as well as your own.

If Martin was scared because an unknown was following him, would he not be safer inside his home, where he could call the police? If he was scared of an unknown person, why circle back (as testimony showed at trial) to seek out a confrontation with someone you are scared of?

Then the fight broke out, and we really only have the word of the survivor for what really happened. I am to this day not as clear as I'd like to be about what really went down that night.

The only thing in question is who threw the first blows and Zimmerman did pass a lie detector test on his side of the story. The physical evidence also matched his story (dropped flash light and keys where he said Martin punched him) and the eye witness and injuries on Zimmerman's body.

I will say this. I read an awful lot of pro-concealed carry stuff on the forums, and frankly a lot of the guys wanting to carry scare me thinking that they have a box of rubber bands, much less a gun. These are guys who seem to be looking for trouble so they can shoot somebody and call it self defense. Some of these guys are the very last who should be allowed to have guns, and their writings prove it.

If your gun is an extension of your manhood, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ARMED!. End of story.

Personally, I don't care for concealed carry, but I respect people's rights to do so. When the evidence is examined objectively in this case, there is zero evidence Zimmerman did anything to justify being punched and or attacked. Simply following and keeping an eye on someone does not call for a physical attack.

 

[blackribbon]

Is the popular stance here really that when crime comes to our neighborhoods, we should not do anything but rather hide in our homes and wait for the police to do something about it?

Zimmerman was watching for trouble that already existed in his neighborhood. His gun did not come out until he was being assaulted in his own neighborhood. His "crime" was to try to follow a person who did not live in the neighborhood to see where he went and what he was up to. That is EXACTLY the purpose of neighborhood watch programs. To be the eyes and ears for the police, so they can act.

He had zero reason to believe that Martin was going to hide out and attack him. He had no reason to believe that he was escalating anything or that Martin was dangerous. He was only following him to see what he was up to and where he was going. How can that be "hot headed"?