If you had God's powers, how would you communicate with people?

[MrsFoundit]

One would stop a child running into a building because as an adult one knows better than a child.

No, because an adult can safely guess the choice of a child in the long run.

God does not need to guess your choice about Hell, and judgement is not an emergency response.

 

[MrsFoundit]

I would forcibly protect a child from running into a fire: I’m sure you would too.

An adult is not a child.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Precisely!

Invalid reasoning based on a false comparison.

 

[Larniavc]

No, because an adult can safely guess the choice of a child in the long run.

God does not need to guess your choice about Hell, and judgement is not an emergency response.

So he knows in advance that nothing will stop the people who eventually will go to Hell from going to Hell?

 

[MrsFoundit]

Suicidal persons? If it's a friend, I think I would thoroughly talk to them first.

As God can.

But it is another false comparison to say "but suicidal people". Judgement in Christianity is not based on a short term state of mind. There is also the fact that a human deciding to kill a human is a fallible human judgement (even if the target is them self.) God respecting our free will based decisions is not subject to human unreliability of mind.

But the decision is theirs. Even if I prevented them from running into the burning building... they would run into the next burning one.

Yes, if you could not persuade them to adopt a safer way of life. As God can.

 

[MrsFoundit]

So he knows in advance that nothing will stop the people who eventually will go to Hell from going to Hell?

No, He knows what you did and which direction you want to move in. Your destination is predictable from your consistent direction.

If I am driving on a motorway, I can turn off, turn around or carry on. Someone watching my car can say where I am headed, but not know were I will end up. They do not know if I am going to decide to turn around at some point. If I do turn around, my preferred destination also changes.

If I start to notice road signs saying "hazard ahead", I am grateful for the opportunity to turn around. I am in the UK, two year olds are not permitted to drive cars here, adults are.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

There is a God. He is just not popular.
The music example shows, good "ineffective" stuff might not be most popular - but still good stuff.

It can be the best stuff in the world, but if it's not conveyed correctly, the person trying to convey it has failed.
It's really simple, thomas. God tried to get people to listen to Him, and failed.

The aim is issuing an invitation for anyone reading the book. Luke 14:23

And why was that your aim?

Suicidal persons? If it's a friend, I think I would thoroughly talk to them first.
But the decision is theirs. Even if I prevented them from running into the burning building... they would run into the next burning one.

Hardly seems worth bothering trying to save lives at all, does it?

this, I suppose, is surely hypothetical... and I don't want to think about it.

Hypotheticals can be extremely useful in illustrating errors in reasoning.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

This is not what we believe. You assume it is.

1. God has infinite wisdom? I'm pretty sure that's what you believe.
2. God was unable to persuade people to His way of thinking? I know that's what you don't believe, despite it being the logical consequence of what you say about God. I don't assume you believe it. I realise you don't, and I'm inviting you to justify your belief.

No we do not assume it is impossible for God to fail in this application, we believe effectively the opposite. That because people will use their free choice to avoid listening, as the Bible depicts people will not all know God. The current situation on earth is not a surprise or unexplained difficulty for Christians. We do not need to assume His intention, we know His desire and respect for free choice.

I really do think you should reread that paragraph, and consider how thoroughly you debunked your own arguments and made my case for me.
The situation, as has been apparent for most of this thread, is a clear contradiction, and you illustrated it very clearly there.

Since your reasoning is dependent on assumptions and misrepresentations your conclusion is unsound.

Since you have failed to demonstrate that my reasoning is unsound - rather the opposite - I think my conclusion stands.

Yes, if you could not persuade them to adopt a safer way of life. As God can.

Haven't I just had Christians on this thread assuring me that God can't necessarily persuade people, and indeed doesn't particularly care to do so?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Invalid reasoning based on a false comparison.

We're on the sixth page, and you have yet to demonstrate the invalidity of @Larnievc 's reasoning.

 

[BigV]

One comparison: would you let a rapist into your house? To live there?
When it's clear that he didn't have a problem with raping women in the past and never repented?
Isn't letting rapists in a bit too dangerous? Wouldn't you endanger your othere housemates in letting him in? And what would the other people say if your house is a shelter for rapists who apparently don't have a problem raping people.
I've chosen this rather drastic example to bring my point across that letting people in can present a danger.
I don't want to insinuate anyone here is a rapist, though...

Well, I would not let a rapist in, but I would not torture them for eternity either.

How does a rapist get rehabilitated? And what happens to those who contributed to that person being a rapist?

You see, people don't typically become criminals if they are brought up in loving homes. Yes, there are always exceptions, but typically every criminal has a violent history. That's not an excuse for their behavior, obviously, but if you want to properly punish the crime, by punishing rapist you are only addressing one link in the chain.

At any rate, you are not letting rapists in, but what about non-believers who never raped anyone?

 

[BigV]

It is hardly running, it is not a toddler, opportunities to change direction are abundant, your direction is your choice. You go whatever way you want.

Your depiction of His respect for our preference is otherwise quite accurate.

How does an unbeliever who doesn't believe in Hell chose Hell? Would you agree that you too are choosing Hell of Islam's religion? And if you are choosing a Muslim Hell (by believing a Christian God, a Trinity which is considered idolatry in Islam), then why would you chose a Muslim Hell? If you research it, you will find it's no better than a Christian one.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

How does an unbeliever who doesn't believe in Hell chose Hell? Would you agree that you too are choosing Hell of Islam's religion? And if you are choosing a Muslim Hell (by believing a Christian God, a Trinity which is considered idolatry in Islam), then why would you chose a Muslim Hell? If you research it, you will find it's no better than a Christian one.

It's most regrettable, the way Christians say that people "choose" to go to hell. It's an absurd situation, as a moment's thought will show. But they have to do it. God, as we've seen in this thread, must never, ever, ever be shown to be in the wrong. Even if you have to say the most ridiculous things like "Oh, they chose to go to eternal damnation."

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Hmmm. It really looks like the Christians don't want to address
@BigV 's question. Well done. Always good to ask questions that make people think.

 

[MrsFoundit]

How does an unbeliever who doesn't believe in Hell chose Hell?

By being an unbeliever who doesn't believe in Hell.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Hmmm. It really looks like the Christians don't want to address

Maybe things are not always as they look.

 

[MrsFoundit]

"Oh, they chose to go to eternal damnation."

No "Oh" with which you attempt to depict it as small issue I need to dismiss.

Just me saying "I believe anyone actually in Hell did indeed choose."

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Maybe things are not always as they look.

No, I think they are in this case.

 

[MrsFoundit]

And if you are choosing a Muslim Hell (by believing a Christian God, a Trinity which is considered idolatry in Islam), then why would you chose a Muslim Hell? If you research it, you will find it's no better than a Christian one.

CF rules expect respect for people of other world religions, Muslim members can speak of their own position.

 

[MrsFoundit]

No, I think they are in this case.

Perhaps you cannot see most of the actual posts, since you also say you cannot see any replies to the OP from Christians either.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

No "Oh" with which you attempt to depict it as small issue I need to dismiss.

Just me saying "I believe anyone actually in Hell did indeed choose."

The appalling casualness here is on the Christians' side: "Most humans going to hell? Well, they chose to, didn't they?"

I think this might be a good moment to examine exactly what "choose" means. Dictionaries can be unreliable, but in this case I think Christians who say people choose to go to hell are simply misusing the word. So:

Definition of choose | Dictionary.com
to select from a number of possibilities; pick by preference: She chose Sunday for her departure.
No, I don't think this fits. People who don't believe in hell cannot choose it, since they do not consider it as one of the possibilities that exists.

to prefer or decide (to do something): He chose to run for election.
Nope, this doesn't work. Nobody prefers to go to what is, by definition, the worst possible place to exist.

to want; desire: I choose moving to the city.
Again, no. Nobody wants to go to eternal suffering.