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"If we had confidence that Trump did not commit a crime, we would have said so"

rjs330

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This is not the full extent, but I already quoted in post #724 what they did wrong.

Here's some of the relevant info again:

"Robert Goldstone emailed Donald Trump Jr., to pass along from Emin and Aras Agalarov an "offer" from Russia's "Crown prosecutor" to "the Trump campaign" of "official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to [Trump Jr. 's] father." The email described this as "very high level and sensitive information" that is "part of Russia and its government's support to Mr. Trump-helped along by Aras and Emin." Trump Jr. responded: "if it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer." Trump Jr. and Emin Agalarov had follow-up conversations and, within days, scheduled a meeting with Russian representatives that was attended by Trump Jr., Manafort, and Kushner. The communications setting up the meeting and the attendance by high-level Campaign representatives support an inference that the Campaign anticipated receiving derogatory documents and information from official Russian sources that could assist candidate Trump's electoral prospects.
...
Specifically, Goldstone passed along an offer purportedly from a Russian government official to provide "official documents and information" to the Trump Campaign for the purposes of influencing the presidential election. Trump Jr. appears to have accepted that offer and to have arranged a meeting to receive those materials."


You keep making the false claim "they found nothing to show there was collaboration." That is a blatantly false claim. Not being able to prove criminal conspiracy due to lack of provable intent isn't in the same ballpark as "nothing to show there was collaboration". There is abundant evidence of collaboration between the Trump campaign and Russia. That collaboration hasn't been proven to be manifested in specific criminal action, but if you don't think the above is "collaboration", I suggest you spend some time with a dictionary.

Now, please provide evidence for your claims of "The only people that actually tried to influence the election and used Russian operatives was the Clinton campaign". Be sure to apply a consistent standard for evidence when you present yours.

Collusion bombshell: DNC lawyers met with FBI on Russia allegations before surveillance warrant

Clinton actually paid someone to dig up dirt on Trump and that person used unverified information including information from Russians.

Trump's people didn't pay anybody, didn't receive any information, didn't use unverified information to obtain search warrants on Clinton. Whereas that's not what occurred from the Clinton side.

NY State Dem Chair: Trump 'dirt' comments 'whole different scenario' than Clinton campaign using Steele dossier

Steele himself claimed his sources included Vyacheslav Trubnikov and Vladislov Surkov. Both of these men were Russian.

So it appears that Clinton was the one who was actually paying for stuff and received supposed information on Trump which was actually used to try and get dirt on him through the FBI.
 
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rambot

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Why the Infamous Trump Tower Meeting Didn't Take Down Trump

So this meeting was a big nothing. Nothing happened, nothing occurred, nothing was provided and nothing illegal occurred.
Your understand of events is a shambles rjs330.
Things occurred but Mueller did not believe that he had sufficient evidence to prove.

What seems suspicious to me:
Mueller spends 14 pages of his 448-page report laying out the chronology of the June 9, 2016 meeting, and an additional 10 detailing Trump’s efforts to prevent the disclosure of emails related to the encounter.
Nothing happenned at the meeting that Trump spent a great deal of effort to cover up and lie about!

But nothing happenned.
Because that's what innocent people do.

And I'm sure the idea that Trump could have easy have had these discussions on What'sapp and deleted them means absolutely nothing either.
 
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stevil

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I think my own bias may be showing here. I feel that most of the liberals here believe Trump is guilty of committing crimes.
Even many non liberals here think the evidence shows clear obstruction.


when no one has actually accused him of one
Many people have accused Trump of criminal wrongdoing, e.g. Napoletano
 
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rambot

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Collusion bombshell: DNC lawyers met with FBI on Russia allegations before surveillance warrant

Clinton actually paid someone to dig up dirt on Trump and that person used unverified information including information from Russians.

Trump's people didn't pay anybody, didn't receive any information, didn't use unverified information to obtain search warrants on Clinton. Whereas that's not what occurred from the Clinton side.

NY State Dem Chair: Trump 'dirt' comments 'whole different scenario' than Clinton campaign using Steele dossier

Steele himself claimed his sources included Vyacheslav Trubnikov and Vladislov Surkov. Both of these men were Russian.

So it appears that Clinton was the one who was actually paying for stuff and received supposed information on Trump which was actually used to try and get dirt on him through the FBI.
"a knowledgeable source told me".
Yes. Good. Well this also looks credible.
 
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stevil

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Why the Infamous Trump Tower Meeting Didn't Take Down Trump

So this meeting was a big nothing. Nothing happened, nothing occurred, nothing was provided and nothing illegal occurred.
Meeting with the Russians with the intent to get dirt on Hilary was illegal.

Why do you think the administration lied about this meeting?

They were let off because the SC couldn't prove that they Trump Campaign members knew it was illegal.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Collusion bombshell: DNC lawyers met with FBI on Russia allegations before surveillance warrant

Clinton actually paid someone to dig up dirt on Trump and that person used unverified information including information from Russians.

Trump's people didn't pay anybody, didn't receive any information, didn't use unverified information to obtain search warrants on Clinton. Whereas that's not what occurred from the Clinton side.

NY State Dem Chair: Trump 'dirt' comments 'whole different scenario' than Clinton campaign using Steele dossier

Steele himself claimed his sources included Vyacheslav Trubnikov and Vladislov Surkov. Both of these men were Russian.

So it appears that Clinton was the one who was actually paying for stuff and received supposed information on Trump which was actually used to try and get dirt on him through the FBI.
The issue is less the fact that the information comes from Russia (the location) than how it was obtained. If a foreign government is reaching out to give you sensitive, damaging information about a candidate, that is a cause for concern on multiple levels.

1. A foreign government has sensitive, damaging information about a presidential candidate. That in and of itself is a problem.

2. If they were able to get damaging information about one candidate, why not the other?

3. They have given you a favor. This might lead to a feeling of obligation towards them (either on their part or your part). That could be used by them to leverage future favors or it might lead to you treating them more favorably in future interactions.

In the case of the Steele Dossier, Clinton's campaign was paying Fusion GPS for opposition research. Donald Trump had business deals in Russia, so they hired a contractor (Steele) with contacts in Russia to look into those dealings. He asked his contacts what they knew about Trump, and the information was disturbing enough that rather than deliver it to his employer, he sent it to the FBI.

Edit to clarify: Hiring a foreign contractor is perfectly legal. The Trump campaign, for example, hired Cambridge Analytica, which is a British company. No one has any issue with that action (though people do have issues with Cambridge Analytica, but that's beside the point). The illegal thing is accepting donations and campaign contributions from foreign governments. That includes anything of value - money, information, goods, services, etc.
 
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rjs330

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Meeting with the Russians with the intent to get dirt on Hilary was illegal.

Why do you think the administration lied about this meeting?

They were let off because the SC couldn't prove that they Trump Campaign members knew it was illegal.

It's only illegal when they know what they are doing and a significant amount of money exchanged hands. Like what happened with the dosier.
 
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rjs330

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The issue is less the fact that the information comes from Russia (the location) than how it was obtained. If a foreign government is reaching out to give you sensitive, damaging information about a candidate, that is a cause for concern on multiple levels.

1. A foreign government has sensitive, damaging information about a presidential candidate. That in and of itself is a problem.

2. If they were able to get damaging information about one candidate, why not the other?

3. They have given you a favor. This might lead to a feeling of obligation towards them (either on their part or your part). That could be used by them to leverage future favors or it might lead to you treating them more favorably in future interactions.

In the case of the Steele Dossier, Clinton's campaign was paying Fusion GPS for opposition research. Donald Trump had business deals in Russia, so they hired a contractor (Steele) with contacts in Russia to look into those dealings. He asked his contacts what they knew about Trump, and the information was disturbing enough that rather than deliver it to his employer, he sent it to the FBI.

Edit to clarify: Hiring a foreign contractor is perfectly legal. The Trump campaign, for example, hired Cambridge Analytica, which is a British company. No one has any issue with that action (though people do have issues with Cambridge Analytica, but that's beside the point). The illegal thing is accepting donations and campaign contributions from foreign governments. That includes anything of value - money, information, goods, services, etc.

So Clinton collaberated with Russians through a third party to obtain dirt on Trump which turned out to be unverified AND was given to the FBI for warrants on Trump and that's okay with you? While Trump received nothing, gave nothing and nothing happened and somehow that's horrible?
 
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rjs330

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Your understand of events is a shambles rjs330.
Things occurred but Mueller did not believe that he had sufficient evidence to prove.

What seems suspicious to me:
Nothing happenned at the meeting that Trump spent a great deal of effort to cover up and lie about!

But nothing happenned.
Because that's what innocent people do.

And I'm sure the idea that Trump could have easy have had these discussions on What'sapp and deleted them means absolutely nothing either.
We all know Trump is not one to just role over all the time. Bottom line is nothing happened.
 
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SimplyMe

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So Clinton collaberated with Russians through a third party to obtain dirt on Trump which turned out to be unverified AND was given to the FBI for warrants on Trump and that's okay with you? While Trump received nothing, gave nothing and nothing happened and somehow that's horrible?

Let me provide an analogy, so maybe you can understand better. Let's say Hillary decided she wanted a new TV for her house, prior to the 2016 election. So, she heads down to Best Buy and buys a $15,000 TV from them, and the TV happened to be made in China.

Now, let's imagine that instead of going to Best Buy, an agent of the Chinese government came to her and told her they could "give" her that same TV, that she didn't need to buy one. Wouldn't your first question be, what are the Chinese going to get in exchange for giving her the TV? Regardless, the fact is that for a candidate (or someone in government) to receive a gift like that from a foreign government is against Federal law.

To compare this to what actually happened in the 2016 election: Hillary went to Fusion GPS and paid for them to create an opposition research report on Trump -- this is roughly analogous to buying the TV from Best Buy. Just like it wouldn't have mattered that the TV was manufactured in China, by Chinese workers; it likewise does not matter at all that Fusion GPS hired a British national (though one that has worked with US Intelligence and the FBI) to get information, some of which he got from Russians. Fusion GPS needed someone with the contacts that could get the information and from people (in this case Russians) that had direct knowledge of things Trump had done.

By contrast, officials in the Trump campaign were told that a Russian agent wished to meet with them, that they had information on Hillary Clinton. This is the equivalent of having the Chinese buy a TV. I can hear you already, "it was just information..." but, again, remember information was what Hillary paid millions to Fusion GPS for. The right information would be worth millions of dollars, so even accepting the meeting (depending on what legal experts you talk to) is considered a violation of federal law -- the law requires reporting this type of contact to the FBI.

Now, at least from what the Trump campaign claims, all these Russians wanted to do was talk about the Magnitsky Act (or as the Trump campaigners put it, they just wanted to talk about "adoption"). They claim that she didn't really appear to have any information on Clinton so they ended the meeting -- though that gives the clear implication that had their been information on Hillary, that they may have been open to trading the information in exchange for repealing the Magnitsky Act. Do you now being to see why this is taken so seriously, and that getting information from a foreign government is considered to be a serious crime?

And even if you don't, it doesn't matter. The fact remains, buying something from a US company is legal for candidates/campaigns to do (whether it be a TV or information), even if it ends up being from "foreign sources" (manufactured in another country, or information gathered in another country). Getting "gifts" from any foreign source is illegal for a candidate/campaign.

Last, this whole "unverified" thing is a red herring. Yes, any "opposition research" report is going to be "unverified." If Trump had gotten information on Hillary from the Russians it would have been "unverified." Though, in the interim, we can also say that much of the information from Steele's report has been verified, much remains "unverified," and a small amount appears to have been incorrect.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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So Clinton collaberated with Russians through a third party to obtain dirt on Trump which turned out to be unverified AND was given to the FBI for warrants on Trump and that's okay with you? While Trump received nothing, gave nothing and nothing happened and somehow that's horrible?
@SimplyMe's TV analogy was pretty good, but to address your points more directly, there was zero communication between the Clinton campaign and the Russian government (or any Russians for that matter, at least with regards to the subject at hand). Neither did they communicate any intent to involve Russia or Russians in the gathering of opposition research (as far as I'm aware). So by definition then, there can't be any collaboration between the Clinton campaign and Russia.

In the case of Trump, the Russian government reached out to him, and Mueller documented at least one attempt by his campaign to reach out to the Russian government (foiled by a mis-typed email address). They were in communication at times, and intent to exchange information was expressed. Yes, nothing was obtained for whatever reason you want to believe, but simply the expression of intent is bad in my eyes. The reason why it's bad has nothing to do with the source - I would be equally upset if similar interactions happened between a campaign and the government of Britain or Canada or Germany. It's 100% to do with the implied quid-pro-quo, or at least the prospect of it. Nothing is free in politics. If someone is giving you something, they'll want something else in return - money, information, favorable trade deals, staying out of a regional conflict, etc. The President should not be putting the country in a poor negotiating position for his own personal gain.

Moreover, it's against the law. Honestly, there shouldn't need to be anything else said after that. Campaign contributions in the form of money or things of value (and information certainly has value, or no one would pay for opposition research) cannot come from foreign sources. A service purchased by the campaign is not a campaign contribution (unless they're getting a discounted rate). A person giving you damaging information on your opponent IS a campaign contribution.
 
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rjs330

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Ah but Steele obtained information on behalf of the Clinton campaign which was paid for by the Clinton campaign. And that information obtained was turned over to the FBI. It's pretty hard to say they didn't know when they gave the information to the FBI. Unverified information that was used to obtain search warrants. It's pretty hard to say they didn't know anything when they thought whatever it was needed to go to the FBI.
 
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Pommer

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Ah but Steele obtained information on behalf of the Clinton campaign which was paid for by the Clinton campaign. And that information obtained was turned over to the FBI. It's pretty hard to say they didn't know when they gave the information to the FBI. Unverified information that was used to obtain search warrants. It's pretty hard to say they didn't know anything when they thought whatever it was needed to go to the FBI.
What “search warrants”?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Ah but Steele obtained information on behalf of the Clinton campaign which was paid for by the Clinton campaign.
And? What exactly is wrong with that? He did not know that he was working for the Clinton campaign until several months into the investigation (Fusion GPS told him that they were hired by a law firm and his direction was simply to find out why Trump had sought to do business deals in Russia) and the Clinton campaign never knew that they were paying him until the dossier was leaked by BuzzFeed.
And that information obtained was turned over to the FBI. It's pretty hard to say they didn't know when they gave the information to the FBI. Unverified information that was used to obtain search warrants. It's pretty hard to say they didn't know anything when they thought whatever it was needed to go to the FBI.
Steele turned the information over to the FBI, not the Clinton campaign. The Steele Dossier was never delivered to the Clinton campaign - it wasn't even completed until after the election.

Either way, I fail to see how this relates to what Trump did wrong.
 
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stevil

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Ah but Steele obtained information on behalf of the Clinton campaign which was paid for by the Clinton campaign.

Going by Wiki (which could be wrong)
Trump–Russia dossier - Wikipedia

Fusion GPS, which is a commercial research and strategic intelligence firm based in Washington DC, was contracted by conservative political website The Washington Free Beacon for opposition research on Trump and other Republican candidates.
Much later Hillary's campaign, and also the DNC independantly of each other also contracted Fusion GPS to investigate Trump.

It seems to me, in USA politics there is an expectation to research dirt on your opponent. And by law it seems this must be done domestically. Fusion GPS is a USA company. And it seems is used by both right wing and left wing groups to research dirt on political people.

This all seems perfectly legal so far.



Fusion GPS subcontracted the research with Christopher Steele who is a former British intelligence officer with SIS. He has been retired from that role for 9-10 years.
Christopher was unaware that the research at some stage was funded by the Clinton campaign. The Clinton Campaign was unaware that the research job had been subcontracted to Steele.

Once Trump had won the election, the Clinton campaign no longer funded the research, But for some reason Fusion GPS continued having Steele create the dossier. The dossier was submitted to the FBI.

It seems to me that if the above is true, there was enough separation, (but I am no legal expert) to avoid abuse, e.g. blackmail, leverage, quid pro quo favours from one nation onto Hillary and back.

It also seem appropriate to me that this information was sent to the FBI rather than to Hillary or the DNC.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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It seems to me, in USA politics there is an expectation to research dirt on your opponent. And by law it seems this must be done domestically. Fusion GPS is a USA company. And it seems is used by both right wing and left wing groups to research dirt on political people.

This all seems perfectly legal so far.
It's not even that the work has to be done domestically. It's just that anything that counts as a campaign contribution (i.e. donation) cannot come from a foreign government or foreign national. If you're paying someone to do a job, it doesn't really matter where they're from - optics aside. For example, the Trump campaign employed Cambridge Analytica, which is a British company. That didn't break any laws. The reasons for shielding Steele from the Clinton campaign would be to maintain objectivity and prevent any appearance of impropriety.
 
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Kentonio

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Ah but Steele obtained information on behalf of the Clinton campaign which was paid for by the Clinton campaign. And that information obtained was turned over to the FBI. It's pretty hard to say they didn't know when they gave the information to the FBI. Unverified information that was used to obtain search warrants. It's pretty hard to say they didn't know anything when they thought whatever it was needed to go to the FBI.

People above have done a great job of setting you straight on most of this, but I just want to highlight your premise about the FBI. If you hear information that a crime has been committed, then it’s absolutely normal to provide that to law enforcement. What on earth does ‘unverified’ even mean in this context? Since when was it the responsibility of a private citizen let alone a foreign national to verify a complex crime before reporting it? You expect people to act as detectives when they believe a crime has been committed before involving law enforcement?

It’s down to the FBI to determine the validity of that information and to a judge to determine whether there is sufficient grounds to issue warrants. Trying to attack Steele for doing a service to the US that he had absolutely no requirement to perform just makes America look incredibly petty and ungrateful, not to mention untrustworthy of course. In future foreign allies will be much less likely to come to America’s aid after seeing what happened to Steele.
 
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