Upvote
0
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask
- Thread starter QuietSpirit
- Start date
- Status
Upvote
0
[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
The problem is that you are using an assortment of verses to tackle that other person's problem, without examining God's solution to your problem. Notice your concern: "Though this person has screwed me over, yet still I have not seen the Lord rebuke them in proportion to the offense." The reality is, the longer you harbor the need for justice according to your standard, the longer it will before God begins working healing in your life.
Fifteen months seems like a long time; I have ministered to people who have waited 40 years. You will probably never see "the Lord rebuke them in proportion to the offense". You have decided what is appropriate justice. But the question remains: is that God's appropriate justice? The sad thing is that you have given the person who has offended you so much power over your life, that even God can't satisfy your desire for justice.
God's solution to your problem has nothing to do with the other person. God is completely able to take care of that person in his way in his time. God's solution is for you, so that you are not "heavy-laden" (Matthew 11:28-30). Your burden of offense is indeed great. That is very evident, and no one here is diminishing it. However, nothing that God does to or for the other person will relieve this burden of yours.
Notice what Jesus says in Matt. 11:28-30:
He is speaking to people who were suffering under someone else's burden, the religious leaders, and they were trying to live according to someone else's standard. They were freed from their own sins, their own preoccupations, their own vision of justice. The solution was not for Jesus to "fix the religious leaders', but rather for them to take Jesus's yoke (his righteousness, his love, his mercy, his gentleness, his humility, and even his accomplished justice, etc.) - and in him they found rest for their souls. And that is what you need.
In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Zecryphon
Well-Known Member
- Aug 14, 2006
- 8,987
- 2,005
- 52
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
"David viewed God as an enforcer, the people of Israel also viewed God as their personal enforcer against the people that hated them."
We can look through the Bible and see all the different ways David viewed God and the deep respect he had for God. With you we have an initial request that we pray for God to take vengeance upon your enemy. But we still have no idea of how you have been wronged, what the situation truly is or if you are even telling the truth about being wronged. There are just too many gaps here for us to act in good conscience as you would like us to act.
"God has often promised to be our shield, our fortress, and that he will bless those who bless his people, and curse those who curse his people."
Yes and He will do all those things as He sees fit, not as you see fit.
"What makes you think God does not play the role of enforcer, seeing as his people (the meek) do not do their own enforcing?"
See above.
"Consider this:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously"
Let's look at the surrounding verses.
1Pe 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. 1Pe 2:22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 1Pe 2:23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.
Seems to me that Christ gave us an example to follow here. He was reviled but He did not return the favor. When He was wronged, He took it, and did not return the favor. Since He is one with God and is God, He knows that all things work according to God's will. He trusted that. You need to do the same. By asking us to pray for vengeance that God will smite your enemy, you are asking us to step in for you and act on your behalf, thus acting in opposition to whatever God has willed.
"by committing himself to Him that judges righteously (God), was he not also viewing God, his Father, as an enforcer?"
No. He trusted that God would handle it and God did. You have asked God to handle this. You need to wait for God to do so.
"and its not a matter of "God settling scores as I see fit", whether you believe me or not, I have been wronged."
How? That's a missing piece of the puzzle here.
"Promises were broken, wickedness was done, and whether you doubt me or not, I suffered because of their misdeeds."
If you don't give us the whole story, we can not help you. I can't just pray for a situation as supposedly serious as this one without knowing everything that has gone on. That's just irresponsible.
"We are to trust God that he will repay those who have harmed us, and I do trust him. But I don't see why you think God is not an enforcer to protect the rights of those who believe in him."
I do not call Him out as my personal enforcer to take care of me when I have been wronged by another. Cuz maybe I did something that allowed me to be wronged. Maybe I had it coming. Maybe my being wronged is a correction by God. I have much more respect for God than that. He saved me from my sin and set me free. Whatever little troubles arise in this life pale in comparison to that awesome gift. Leave this trouble at the foot of the cross and move on. The person who wronged you isn't losing this much sleep over this, but he is certainly ruining your sleep. Why do you let this person have that kind of power over you? Give it over to God and trust Him to take care of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
But it seems to me that you've been wronged, supposedly, I mean we only have your word on that, and you now want God to take vengeance on the person who wronged you and you want prayer support for that. I won't pray for that.
"why not? do you think its ok what they did?"
We don't know what they did! You haven't explained that aspect of this in any detail. You've given us little snippets and asked us to pray for vengeance. Nope, not happening.
"that they should just go unrebuked? that they should just get away with what they did? and thats right, you only have my word on it. do you think i'm a liar or something?"
Until I know the specifics of what has happened here, I can not in good conscience help you.
"that i'd just make this stuff up to entertain myself or something?"
People do all sorts of strange things.
"you have no reason to doubt me about my story,"
Oh, yes I do! You haven't told us your story or any specifics about this.
"and i don't see why you wouldn't join me in prayer that justice be done. what's wrong with justice?"
Who are we to say that you even deserve justice? We know NOTHING of what has happened here.
"you'll have to explain your view to me a little more for me to understand you, sorry."
I just did. Until I see some specifics about this and how you have been wronged, I am not praying that God take vengeance on anybody. This is too serious an issue to be toyed around with. God delivered justice to Sodom and Gomorrah. I do not wish that kind of rebuke upon anyone.
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Zecryphon
Well-Known Member
- Aug 14, 2006
- 8,987
- 2,005
- 52
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
Quote:
Yes and He will do all those things as He sees fit, not as you see fit.
"So you think (??) maybe I'm just being impatient, and that God is being more longsuffering/forbearing towards them than I have been. I only want him to act in his own infinite wisdom to do whatever he feels is appropriate. Perhaps he feels that a slap on the wrist, or nothing at all, is appropriate. Or, perhaps I've merely been too impatient regarding seeing that justice done."
You have to trust God in this. To you what God has done, if anything thus far, may look like nothing, but to the person being afflicted by God's judgment, they may be suffering in ways you can't see. Did you want this persons punishment, if there is any, to be visible? If so, why? So you could gloat? So you could feel good? It's not about you. It's about God at all times.
Quote:
Seems to me that Christ gave us an example to follow here. He was reviled but He did not return the favor. When He was wronged, He took it, and did not return the favor. Since He is one with God and is God, He knows that all things work according to God's will. He trusted that. You need to do the same.
"So in essence, I'm just spinning my wheels, since God's going to do whatever God's going to do anyway."
In essence, yes.
"But then, why bother praying? If he's going to do what he's going to do anyway?"
Because it keeps you in constant contact and proper relationship with Him. Instead of trusting your own wisdom or devices, you take your problems to God. Prayer is also a time to listen as well as talk to God. After you say "amen" is the prayer over? Or do you listen for an answer as well.
"Why would the elect cry night and day unto him to avenge their adversaries, as in that parable, if it were pointless?"
Communication with God is never pointless. That's not what I'm saying. Those people did what God wanted them to do. Go to Him with their problems and not seek their own wisdom for a solution.
"Is the widow / the elect in the parable of the unjust judge WRONG for asking God for justice/vengeance against their adversaries? If that were the case, why wouldn't Jesus say as much there to support that view? What exactly **AM** I supposed to be praying for regarding this person, or anyone for that matter?"
I can't tell you what to pray for in this situation or any other. That is between you and God. I can't put words in your mouth, some magic recipe that will get God to act how you'd like Him to.
Quote:
By asking us to pray for vengeance that God will smite your enemy, you are asking us to step in for you and act on your behalf, thus acting in opposition to whatever God has willed.
"Well to be completely accurate, I'm asking for you to pray first and foremost that they repent, and barring that I am asking that they be rebuked if they refuse to repent."
I'm not sure they need to repent or be rebuked. You know that, not me.
"And how can I be sure what exactly it is that God has willed? Is it not him that has put this desire for justice into my heart?"
I wouldn't count on it. This cry for vengeance against another sounds alot like a scheme of the devil. Is it not possible that this desire is coming from the adversary. The fact that you think God has not acted quick enough, sounds a lot like something Satan would put on a believer's heart.
"If not him, then who? Would the devil want me to see justice done against them?"
He might. If it causes you to turn against God in some small or major way.
"why? just to rob me of my peace if i don't see it happen? once again, pardon my confusion."
That's a pretty good reason for the devil to act, sure. Anything he can do to cause a schism between God and His children he will do. It may start out small, but over time, with the right kind of spiritual manipualtion it can grow. The devil doesn't always attack in big ways. It always starts out small.
Quote:
No. He trusted that God would handle it and God did. You have asked God to handle this. You need to wait for God to do so.
"right, but then what? just... let it go?"
Yep.
"how?"
I'm afraid I don't have that answer for you.
"or is it my holding-on-to-it that is causing the justice not to occur?"
Justice may not be visible in this case.
"is he withholding his vengeance upon them until I am in such a state of mind where I would not be glad at their calamity?"
I think that's a very real possiblity. We should never gloat when justice is served, but rather have a thankful heart.
"where i would rather mourn for their calamity? and how could i mourn for a calamity that comes upon my enemy, if that is what i wish would happen? i mean, is it wrong to wish that a calamity would befall my enemy? why?"
Yes it is. One you should have no enemies. You should have a concern for all people and a heart that wants to genuinely forgive them and love them. Just as God has loved and forgiven you.
Quote:
I do not call Him out as my personal enforcer to take care of me when I have been wronged by another. Cuz maybe I did something that allowed me to be wronged. Maybe I had it coming. Maybe my being wronged is a correction by God.
"Do you think thats possible? That what this person did to me was a result of my own actions (of course, not knowing the story, I guess you can't really answer that), but do you get the feeling in your spirit that that might be the case or something?"
Yes.
Quote:
I have much more respect for God than that.
"than... what? more respect than to call him out as your "personal enforcer"? if a child gets beaten up, and they go to their daddy and tell them what happened, wouldn't the child expect their daddy (or in this case the heavenly Father) to take care of the wrong and make it right through his might, making the situation just once again? or is it just that I have an imcomplete view of the extent of God's mercy?"
Perhaps the child had it coming. The father would only be a responsible father if he had all the information before acting. He should go to the child's tormenter and find out why the tormenter acted as he did. Perhaps the child was taunting the other person. You are thankful that God has had mercy upon you, that is clear, but I think you might kinda be like Jonah here, when after you have turned it over to God are a bit disappointed that God has not acted as you would have liked. Jonah wanted God to smite Nineveh, but God extended mercy to them instead. I think perhaps God has extended mercy here and you want vengeance.
Yes and He will do all those things as He sees fit, not as you see fit.
"So you think (??) maybe I'm just being impatient, and that God is being more longsuffering/forbearing towards them than I have been. I only want him to act in his own infinite wisdom to do whatever he feels is appropriate. Perhaps he feels that a slap on the wrist, or nothing at all, is appropriate. Or, perhaps I've merely been too impatient regarding seeing that justice done."
You have to trust God in this. To you what God has done, if anything thus far, may look like nothing, but to the person being afflicted by God's judgment, they may be suffering in ways you can't see. Did you want this persons punishment, if there is any, to be visible? If so, why? So you could gloat? So you could feel good? It's not about you. It's about God at all times.
Quote:
Seems to me that Christ gave us an example to follow here. He was reviled but He did not return the favor. When He was wronged, He took it, and did not return the favor. Since He is one with God and is God, He knows that all things work according to God's will. He trusted that. You need to do the same.
"So in essence, I'm just spinning my wheels, since God's going to do whatever God's going to do anyway."
In essence, yes.
"But then, why bother praying? If he's going to do what he's going to do anyway?"
Because it keeps you in constant contact and proper relationship with Him. Instead of trusting your own wisdom or devices, you take your problems to God. Prayer is also a time to listen as well as talk to God. After you say "amen" is the prayer over? Or do you listen for an answer as well.
"Why would the elect cry night and day unto him to avenge their adversaries, as in that parable, if it were pointless?"
Communication with God is never pointless. That's not what I'm saying. Those people did what God wanted them to do. Go to Him with their problems and not seek their own wisdom for a solution.
"Is the widow / the elect in the parable of the unjust judge WRONG for asking God for justice/vengeance against their adversaries? If that were the case, why wouldn't Jesus say as much there to support that view? What exactly **AM** I supposed to be praying for regarding this person, or anyone for that matter?"
I can't tell you what to pray for in this situation or any other. That is between you and God. I can't put words in your mouth, some magic recipe that will get God to act how you'd like Him to.
Quote:
By asking us to pray for vengeance that God will smite your enemy, you are asking us to step in for you and act on your behalf, thus acting in opposition to whatever God has willed.
"Well to be completely accurate, I'm asking for you to pray first and foremost that they repent, and barring that I am asking that they be rebuked if they refuse to repent."
I'm not sure they need to repent or be rebuked. You know that, not me.
"And how can I be sure what exactly it is that God has willed? Is it not him that has put this desire for justice into my heart?"
I wouldn't count on it. This cry for vengeance against another sounds alot like a scheme of the devil. Is it not possible that this desire is coming from the adversary. The fact that you think God has not acted quick enough, sounds a lot like something Satan would put on a believer's heart.
"If not him, then who? Would the devil want me to see justice done against them?"
He might. If it causes you to turn against God in some small or major way.
"why? just to rob me of my peace if i don't see it happen? once again, pardon my confusion."
That's a pretty good reason for the devil to act, sure. Anything he can do to cause a schism between God and His children he will do. It may start out small, but over time, with the right kind of spiritual manipualtion it can grow. The devil doesn't always attack in big ways. It always starts out small.
Quote:
No. He trusted that God would handle it and God did. You have asked God to handle this. You need to wait for God to do so.
"right, but then what? just... let it go?"
Yep.
"how?"
I'm afraid I don't have that answer for you.
"or is it my holding-on-to-it that is causing the justice not to occur?"
Justice may not be visible in this case.
"is he withholding his vengeance upon them until I am in such a state of mind where I would not be glad at their calamity?"
I think that's a very real possiblity. We should never gloat when justice is served, but rather have a thankful heart.
"where i would rather mourn for their calamity? and how could i mourn for a calamity that comes upon my enemy, if that is what i wish would happen? i mean, is it wrong to wish that a calamity would befall my enemy? why?"
Yes it is. One you should have no enemies. You should have a concern for all people and a heart that wants to genuinely forgive them and love them. Just as God has loved and forgiven you.
Quote:
I do not call Him out as my personal enforcer to take care of me when I have been wronged by another. Cuz maybe I did something that allowed me to be wronged. Maybe I had it coming. Maybe my being wronged is a correction by God.
"Do you think thats possible? That what this person did to me was a result of my own actions (of course, not knowing the story, I guess you can't really answer that), but do you get the feeling in your spirit that that might be the case or something?"
Yes.
Quote:
I have much more respect for God than that.
"than... what? more respect than to call him out as your "personal enforcer"? if a child gets beaten up, and they go to their daddy and tell them what happened, wouldn't the child expect their daddy (or in this case the heavenly Father) to take care of the wrong and make it right through his might, making the situation just once again? or is it just that I have an imcomplete view of the extent of God's mercy?"
Perhaps the child had it coming. The father would only be a responsible father if he had all the information before acting. He should go to the child's tormenter and find out why the tormenter acted as he did. Perhaps the child was taunting the other person. You are thankful that God has had mercy upon you, that is clear, but I think you might kinda be like Jonah here, when after you have turned it over to God are a bit disappointed that God has not acted as you would have liked. Jonah wanted God to smite Nineveh, but God extended mercy to them instead. I think perhaps God has extended mercy here and you want vengeance.
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
QS I think it would be good to address you anger and frustration and consider it a sin to be forgiven by God. It is ill will against this person. We all harbor thoughts of revenge and some of us even act on it but God tells us to forgive 70 X 7.
I spent a few years in my life "getting even" only to find out in the long run that it made me feel miserable. I'll always remember the message on a church marquee. It said "Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other guy to die" All it does is poison us and makes us small, mean and bitter.
God tells us to not harbor any ill thought against our neighbor and forgive him his trespasses. That way we grow in love and not hate.
I spent a few years in my life "getting even" only to find out in the long run that it made me feel miserable. I'll always remember the message on a church marquee. It said "Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other guy to die" All it does is poison us and makes us small, mean and bitter.
God tells us to not harbor any ill thought against our neighbor and forgive him his trespasses. That way we grow in love and not hate.
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
As much as it is possible. Keep in mind that I have a day job of 10-11 hours/day. And I teach Bible class every week that I have to prepare for, plus mentoring a pastor. And in the last two weeks I have just been appointed President of our seminary and National Mission Developer. In fact, I have been functioning in many of the roles of both new positions for the past two months.
So that means we are fixing the house and trying to sell our house, pack everything, and move. And believe it or not, my wife expects some of my time.
So, in light of all that, yes, I will be here when possible. Not every day, and there may be gaps.
In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]
Upvote
0
[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
One further note - there are other Lutherans on this board capable of responding to your questions, not just me.
In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]
One further note - there are other Lutherans on this board capable of responding to your questions, not just me.
In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]
Upvote
0
A Christian already receives forgiveness from God when Jesus dies on the cross for that person's sin. As God has forgiven all Christians that sin so should you forgive this person's sin. If you don't then God said he will not forgive our sins. A Christian sinner can be bullheaded and not think that he has sinned but that is what God's grace and mercy is all about. Somewhere down the line the Holy Spirit will convict this person and he will ask God's forgiveness. As I said before it is our job to forgive him 70X7
Luke 6, 37: Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. Christ also repeats it soon after the Lord’s Prayer, and says, Matt. 6, 14: For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you...........
Your forgiveness is just a reflection of what God has already done.
Some people on this forum might not agree with me but "what ever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven".
Luke 6, 37: Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. Christ also repeats it soon after the Lord’s Prayer, and says, Matt. 6, 14: For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you...........
Your forgiveness is just a reflection of what God has already done.
Some people on this forum might not agree with me but "what ever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven".
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
