If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask

[QuietSpirit]

You aren't worth my words.

edit and remove anything you quoted me on

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 

[QuietSpirit]

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[QuietSpirit]

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[DaRev]

I seek that the Lord should grant me justice against my adversary, so that my spirit too may be quieted. A person has wronged me, in such a way that I am having great difficulty dealing with it. It is someone I loved very much. Very much. But this person has dealt with me exceeding treacherously. Is there any disciple who will come into agreement with me touching this matter, so that I may receive justice?

Just what is it that you are seeking be done?

 

[QuietSpirit]

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[Zecryphon]

Whatever God feels is appropriate in His infinite wisdom. Something. Anything. Whatever he feels is appropriate.

Then you should be looking to Christ as your intercessor and not a human being. If you are trusting God to take vengeance on this person because you have been unfairly wronged, there is no need for you to be here asking us to step in. Vengeance is the Lord's not ours.

Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

Isa 35:4 Say to those who have an anxious heart, "Be strong; fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you."

Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

 

[QuietSpirit]

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[QuietSpirit]

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[filosofer]

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Always appropriate to ask for prayer. The request for justice, however, is not an easy one. We don't know the circumstances and we only have one small side of it.

Also, peace does not come from seeing justice done. In fact, in my many years of pastoral ministry I have never seen any person who was looking for justice come to any peace, a sense of ending, but no peace. Rather, when the injured person gives up the thought of justice, and trusts God to do what is best according his plan, then peace comes that passes all understanding (Phil. 4:4-9). God is surprising in so many ways. What God desires most is the salvation of people and repentant hearts of all who call upon him. For the person who wronged you, God desires repentance, but how he accomplishes that might be different, better, unseen by you, and yet demonstrate God's mercy in the midst of the call for justice in a revolutionary way.


In Christ's love,
filo
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[Zecryphon]

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I am only asking for your agreement in prayer per matthew 18:19. Well, I guess I am also seeking some sort of support from other Christians, since obviously God's going to do his own thing anyway, like you said. PM me if you have some free time to spare to talk.

Okay so it's agreement in prayer you want. I'd need to know both sides of the story to be able to make a judgment as to who is right and who has been wronged. But even if I did do that, my judgment is flawed because I'm a human with pre-conceived bias'. You went to the correct party with this matter, God. Just wait to see what He does in His own timing. Your adversary will be dealt with, but on God's timetable not ours.

 

[QuietSpirit]

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[QuietSpirit]

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[QuietSpirit]

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[RadMan]

So you're saying, I may have to wait until The Final Day to see the justice (or whatever the end result is) done?

I was also wondering what y'all's opinion was (at length if possible) about the following verse:

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

If there is complete forgiveness, if our sin has been separated from us as far as the east is from the west, then what is this talk of giving every man according to his works?

This is the word used for "reward" in that phrase:

G591
ap-od-eed'-o-mee
From G575 and G1325; to give away, that is, up, over, back, etc. (in various applications): - deliver (again), give (again), (re-) pay (-ment be made), perform, recompense, render, requite, restore, reward, sell, yield,

Your taking Mathew 16:27 out of context. Read the verses around it. Jesus was referring to the people that couldn't take up their cross and follow Him. Unsaved people.

Take Up the Cross and Follow Him


24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

 

[RadMan]

Since this is our have and rest and respite we would ask you to adhere to these rules which are stated in our subforum. THIS ALSO APPLIES TO ANYONE FROM ANOTHER DENOM ALSO.

This is a subforum for the LCMS, WELS, ELS, LCC, and other conservative Lutherans.

If you belong to the ELCA, ELCIC, or anyother liberal Lutheran branch, only fellowship posts are allowed. You are not allowed to debate here. If you would like to debate something with a member of a conservative Lutheran branch, please do so in the main Lutherans forum.

 

[filosofer]

Certainly justice was accomplished on the cross, substitutionally for every sin ever committed, I have no argument with that. They've been paid for by our Lord and Savior. Yet still there are times, like here:

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Where Christ gives permission and authority to his disciples to have certain peoples' sins retained unto them, at the disciples' discretion, binding in heaven what they bind on earth. Seeing as this person has not repented, it stands to reason their sin is retained.

Where Jesus specifically says that those peoples' sins remained with them. So, while he did pay for all sins, he chose to let their sin remain upon them because of their lack of repentance and their unbelief.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
However, the text in John (20:23) and Matthew 18 does not give the authority to the disciples at their whim to forgive or retain. Rather, if we look carefully at the text (in Matthew 18:18), it is:

Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. (NAS)

Notice that when a disciple pronounces forgiveness, it is not him, but he is announcing what God has already done, namely forgive the sins. So, it isn't a case of the disciples deciding and then God has to come along and forgive, but that when they forgive, it is already done by God. Likewise with the retaining of sins, it is announcing what God has already determined. We can't force God's hand.

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I think justice is still a huge part of the gospel, certainly mercy is also a huge part of it, and mercy rejoices against judgment:

Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
The only justice in the Gospel is that Christ has satisfied God's justice for us, in our place. And we receive the benefits of that satisfaction.

Your quote of James 2:13 ("For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.") is not about salvation or gospel, but Law. James is presenting the truth that someone without the Gospel is under judgment. In that sense, if the person does not repent of sins, then that person is under God's judgment. But that has no part in the Gospel, and certainly is not the desire for those who have received mercy.
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My major problem with this person is that they have showed me no mercy with regards to this situation, even though they claim to be a Christian, and had promised numerous times to be a faithful friend.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
That can be the hard part. I would encourage you to read the account of Joseph and how his brothers treated him (Genesis 37-50). I think you will find wisdom from one who knew what it was to be betrayed, even by his brothers. But even more, you will discover how God used Joseph, not seeking his own revenge on them, but forgiving and restoring, even when there seemed no opportunity for such.

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So, I hope you will agree with me in prayer, just go ahead and make sure to say "if it be Your will" and then you are absolved of having to know the other side of the story.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Actually, my comment was not that I needed to know both sides, but that we had heard only one side, and not much. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. When we pray "according to God's will" we are asking God bring about his justice and especially his mercy in his time in his way. And that is the best for you and for the other person, regardless of what your eyes may discern in the meantime.

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Any stories you could share of your own that may assist me in overcoming this stumblingblock would be much appreciated. And if you have any free time, I would appreciate PM'ing with any or all of you, as I really don't have too many friends (to say the least).

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
There is so much to this. I encourage you not to give up, but don't be led astray by some hope of "justice" that might satisfy your own emotional needs. And that is critical, because you do have emotional needs, they are real, but you also have spiritual needs that are more pressing. Stay with us, we will walk with you.

Some of us have been down this path. It is rocky, uncomfortable, even unnerving, but there is light ahead. Hold fast to God's promises to you - don't worry about the other person - God's promises to you. If you desire I can give you several, but consider this one:

Isaiah 41:10:
Do not fear, for I am with you;
Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God
I will strengthen you, surely I will help you,
Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.



In Christ's love,
filo
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[LilLamb219]

I love good 'ole Law Gospel talk

 

[filosofer]

It would seem from those Zechariah verses at the top that God's spirit received peace when justice was done at the hand of the four horses/four spirits of heaven. And seeing as His Holy Spirit lives within all of us who believe in Jesus, would not that same Spirit receive peace from justice being done, thereby also giving our spirit peace? Does not a victim in a court receive a sense of peace when their perpetrator is found guilty and put behind bars? And does it not anger God when justice is forsaken in the courts of man? I think justice and peace are tightly linked.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Thanks for hanging in there. It is good that you are searching through the Scriptures. At same time, we have to understand what the Scriptures meant in the original context, and with the OT, how those Scriptures apply to Christ, and then to us. If we short-circuit around Christ's fulfillment, we miss what God intends in his Word.

In some cases we see OT prophetic fulfillment in the near future (maybe even in the prophet's own time), distant future, in the fulfillment of Christ, and ultimately at the end. Thus, the application of Isaiah 41:10 through Christ is appropriate. However, especially with the full import of the word "justice" we cannot just pick a verse that speaks about justice and then apply it to our own circumstances.

In Zechariah's case much of his prophecy is Christo-centric (meaning focused on Christ (Zech. 9:91-0), but much of it is also ultimate judgment or justice at the end of time. We need to unpack that before we can apply directly. What we can say is that God's "justice" is consummated on the cross in Jesus Christ's death. All discussion of justice after that point is seen through his fulfillment of justice.

In Christ's love,
filo
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[QuietSpirit]

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[Zecryphon]

So you're saying, I may have to wait until The Final Day to see the justice (or whatever the end result is) done?

I was also wondering what y'all's opinion was (at length if possible) about the following verse:

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

If there is complete forgiveness, if our sin has been separated from us as far as the east is from the west, then what is this talk of giving every man according to his works?

This is the word used for "reward" in that phrase:

G591
ap-od-eed'-o-mee
From G575 and G1325; to give away, that is, up, over, back, etc. (in various applications): - deliver (again), give (again), (re-) pay (-ment be made), perform, recompense, render, requite, restore, reward, sell, yield,

"So you're saying, I may have to wait until The Final Day to see the justice (or whatever the end result is) done?"

Yes, if that is what God has willed. But what's really piquing my interest here is why you are treating God like a big guard dog or an enforcer that you get to whip out to settle your scores as you see fit? That's not His role, He doesn't work for you in that capacity. You work for Him as a servant seeking to do His will. But it seems to me that you've been wronged, supposedly, I mean we only have your word on that, and you now want God to take vengeance on the person who wronged you and you want prayer support for that. I won't pray for that.