If the universe is <10,000 old....

[philadiddle]

Since the YECs who responded in the other thread I tried to make are ignoring my followup question, I'll try to be a little more direct.

If you think the universe is less than 10,000 years old because you reject the evidence for the big bang, then how would respond to an atheist who thought the universe was static and eternal?

 

[Greg1234]

Since the YECs who responded in the other thread I tried to make are ignoring my followup question, I'll try to be a little more direct.

If you think the universe is less than 10,000 years old because you reject the evidence for the big bang, then how would respond to an atheist who thought the universe was static and eternal?

I don't think that would be a problem as the physical universe would still have a beginning. It has a beginning because the infinite would manifest from a previous, finer state into a physical representation. From the finer to the physical would be a beginning, but the physical with embedded infinity.

 

[philadiddle]

I don't think that would be a problem as the physical universe would still have a beginning. It has a beginning because the infinite would manifest from a previous, finer state into a physical representation. From the finer to the physical would be a beginning, but the physical with embedded infinity.

That doesn't mean anything, it's like a word salad. So let me ask again in hopes of getting a reasonable answer; If you were talking to an atheist who thought that the universe was static and had no beginning, what scientific evidence could you give him to change his mind and convince him that the universe had a beginning?

 

[miamited]

hi phil,

I don't really put much effort in trying to explain to an atheist anything other than the way of salvation. Let God's Spirit first convict him/her of their need for salvation and if they believe and are born again, then all the rest will follow.

Arguing over the size of the ocean is of very little value to one who is in the middle of it on a sinking ship.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[philadiddle]

Ted,

Why are you on a forum arguing over the origins topic with other Christians if there are more important discussions to be involved in?

 

[miamited]

hi phil,

Because there are 24 hours in a day. Christians are supposed to already believe that Jesus died for sin and so my efforts here are, much like Paul, Peter, John, et.al, to teach in an effort to further the believer's maturity and understanding. I firmly believe that when Paul spoke to the early church that they were still feeding on pablum and not the meat of the Scriptures, that he was talking to believers who had just accepted that Jesus died for sin, convinced themselves of their promised salvation and then stopped growing in their wisdom and knowledge of the things of God. So, he spent the majority of his 'down' time writing letters that instructed and corrected the church in some of weightier matters of God's truth. These letters are what we, still today, use to further our understanding of all that the believer should be doing.

The origin topic, for me, has been impressed upon me, to be a very, very important truth and measure of whether when one says they 'believe in God', whether they really do or not. I find plenty of Scriptural support that there will always be, and in these last days it will be even greater, those among us who are not a part of us.

For example: Some argue that the six days of creation are not 'clearly' shown to be six normal, approximately 24 hour days. I reject that argument. I find that God did clearly further define each day as being the same as any day we think of even today by explaining that each day consisted of an evening and a morning. Never mind that many, many, many Jewish scholars who have lived their lives reading and studying ancient Hebrew writings also claim that anytime the word defined as day in our modern bibles, when attached to a numerical value, always is referring to normal days just as we have today.

Some claim that the account of the beginnings is not to be taken literally but rather allegorically. In other words, not a true account of actual events, but a story from which one is to gleen some hidden insight. Most of those who claim this understanding then go through the Scriptures with bold pen and marker taking out all the claims of the Scriptures that don't 'fit' with their idea of love and logic and how if they were god, they would do things. Basically, these folks pretty much explain away nearly all of the miracles we are told happened in the old covenant. Well, friend, I reject that.

My living with the Lord has given me understanding that, and I know there will be many who take offense, I don't think a lot of those who claim the name of christian, have. Jesus said that if a man is born again, he can see the kingdom of God.

Now, I am not arguing. I am explaining the truth. You will find that, if you research my post history, that while I sometimes will create a number of posts on a subject my intent is to try and make things clear and then leave each one alone to follow whatever they believe as truth. As a matter of fact, your very creation of this thread is claimed by you to be because people weren't taking up your challenge to argue points. If you go back to that thread you will find that I posted once, explained my understanding and position and left it alone.

Now, your basic question here is what a believer would tell an atheist regarding the creation and I have answered that it is pretty useless to argue the creation with an athiest. One must know and believe God first, then, just as Paul did, we can discuss the meatier issues of the Scriptures. Go ahead, research the book of the Acts and see how many times Paul initiated the preaching of the gospel to unbelievers with an argument concerning the creation event. Each man must first come to the knowledge that there is a God and that He did create, before any inroads can be made in an atheist's mind regarding the creation.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[TasManOfGod]

Nailed it again Ted

 

[TasManOfGod]

If the universe really was " static and eternal" -man is making a good job of messing that up eh?
That is like the question "What happens if you fire an unstoppable missile at an immovable target"

 

[shernren]

Since the YECs who responded in the other thread I tried to make are ignoring my followup question, I'll try to be a little more direct.

If you think the universe is less than 10,000 years old because you reject the evidence for the big bang, then how would respond to an atheist who thought the universe was static and eternal?

You'd totally support him because at least he doesn't believe in the Big Bang.

A Brief History of Intolerance in Modern Cosmology - Answers in Genesis

Doppler Toppler? - Answers in Genesis

 

[miamited]

hi tas,

Thanks for the words of encouragement. That must be your gift. I know that there are few of us who have the courage and the faith to turn away from the wisdom of the world seeking only the wisdom of God, but it is good to run into one every once in a while.

I believe that my gift is teaching. I believe that God, through His Spirit, has given me the understanding of His great power and majesty and that it is most profoundly displayed, as the Scriptures claim, in the creation event. The Scriptures declare that we have no real reason to not understand God just by seeing what was made. It has always, well since I was born again, been my conviction that those who look at the display of the creation, but try to align it with science, while that understanding certianly leaves room to think that a great god caused all these things to happen, don't truly understand the power and majesty and glory of the God that did and loves us.

He didn't use evolution or ages of time to create this realm of existence. He had in mind from the moment in time that He spoke the first, "Let there be...", what He was doing and exactly how it was to be perfectly made. He knew on day one that by day six He would have completed this entire realm which supports the life of man and placed man in the garden that He made for him. He knew on day six, when He made the first man, that man would sin and his heart would be loath to follow and believe all He was to reveal about Himself. He knew that the only way to attain His goal, that of making a body of people who would serve and love Him, that something would have to be done about the problem of sin. He knew that the only way for Him to attain that goal was to allow man to grow and florish and He would interject in His creation, His Son, for that very purpose. He knew that the earth would be rampant with unbelief, but that some, given the truth, would believe it and turn back to Him. The last two chapters of the Revelation explain to us that God will achieve His ultimate goal. He will, in the end, cast out of both the angelic realm and our realm all the disobedient liars and unbelievers of both realms. This is exactly what the Revelation tells us is the end of this realm. That all the disobedient angels and men will be cast out and the faithful who believed Him and chose to live as He created us and the angels to live, would then all be with Him.

Consider that even the demons that Jesus cast out knew that there was a day to come when they would be cast into the pit. They questioned him as to whether he had come to do that before the time. They know what their ultimate fate is, but unfortunately for them, and I've always thought that since they stand before God they have no excuse not to know and believe who God is, there doesn't seem to be any allowance for the angels to turn back from their disobedience as has been made available to mankind.

It is the story of the parable of the wheat and the weeds. We are living now, and have been since the fall, in the time that both wheat and weeds will both be allowed to grow. They will all grow together just like the parable explains, but the day will come when God will send forth His obedient angels and they will harvest all of the earth and then all the angels and all of mankind that are 'weeds' will be thrown into the fire and those who believed Him and chose to love and serve Him, in both the realm of men and of angels, will be carried into the storehouse of safety and care of God.

When that happens God has already written for us the words that He will speak to us. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." I believe that these those who find themselves in this final place of eternal existence with God will have believed upon the earth all that God had written to them. I believe that they will have already fully understood that the God who loves them and created them for this moment made this entire existence in nearly an instant because He is that powerful and wise. He is a God who merely has to speak and impossible things happen. He is the most powerful God who merely asks a man stick his staff in one little itsy bitsy place in a mighty river and the entire river immediately turns to blood. He is the most powerful God who merely asks a man to set his foot in a raging river and the waters miraculously and instantly pile up and make a path of dry ground for a nation of people to pass. He is a God who has displayed His great power in instructing His people to paint lamb's blood on their doorpost and lentils and every other dwelling in an entire city finds the firstborn child of that family dead the next morning. He tells the rains when they can fall and when they cannot. He is a God who in the mere span of 6 days completes an entire realm of existence from the furthest star in the universe to the most microscopic particle of matter all perfect, all in order, all for the purpose of being a place for the wheat and the weeds to grow until the day of His judgment.

He is the God, that even though He has all this marvelous and majestic power, the only way He could justly allow sinners to accept His offer of grace, His Son had to pay the penalty due Him for sin. Praise that God!!! Know that God!!! Because it is this very weekend that we remember and honor Him for His great display of mercy that He has shown us through His Son! These are the very days of our year that we know and understand again the great love of this great God that has given over the life of His very Son for our sin and then raised him from the dead as a testimony that He will do what He has said He will do for those who, like Jesus, are faithful to Him.

Jesus' death paid the penalty for our sin, but his resurrection is God's proof to us that He is the God who has the power over life and death! Praise that God!!

That is the God I know!!

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[philadiddle]

miamited, do you know how hard it is to have a conversation with you? Your posts are responses to scientific questions. Yet they usually boil down to long drawn out ways of saying "But I really really really really really strongly believe my point of view, and God is powerful, so I strongly believe my point of view."

And when someone responds to that with "but we're talking about science which is God's creation, what does it say?" you just respond with more "I really feel that my interpretation is what God meant, I just really really feel it in my heart and I'm convicted of it."

Then someone may respond with something along the lines of "Well, many scholars and christians have understood the creation account differently, there is a deep meaning in these other ways of understanding it and it is still all true, there is truth in its meaning, even if it isn't literal." And without even batting an eye you respond with more monster posts that just basically say "God is powerful and we need to believe Him and I really really really believe it this way."

If you would like to participate in these discussions then great, please do so. It would be fun to share ideas. But you don't have to preach to a group of Christians. You are literally preaching to the converted.

 

[miamited]

hi phil,

You posted: Yet they usually boil down to long drawn out ways of saying "But I really really really really really strongly believe my point of view, and God is powerful, so I strongly believe my point of view."

Sure, the Scriptures say that we are to stand firm. Paul writes to the Colossians: My purpose is that they may be encouraged in hearthttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-3 and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mysteryhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-4 of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

He is speaking of Jesus, but allows that knowing him reveals all the hidden treasures of wisdom and knowledge and encourages us to not be deceived by fine-sounding arguments. He then immediately follows that with this statement: See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy,http://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-14 which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this worldhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-15 rather than on Christ.

Consider, what are the 'basic principles or this world'?

As far as your claim that I stand like some idiot with my fingers in my ears going blah, blah, blah, blah, why friend, the same could be said of you. However, you believe that because you have the 'basic principles of this world, to back up your claims that you are correct. Ok, I'm fine with that. That I believe God is powerful, friend I will certainly add a hearty Amen to that. As a matter of fact, my God is more powerful than your god because He isn't subject to the authority of science. (I know you'll get a good laugh out of that.) And I will be the first to agree with all of your claim except for one piece. It isn't my point of view, it's God's word that I stand with.

As I have explained God did clearly define the days of creation as a morning and an evening and numbered every one. Both, fairly strong indicators that He expects us to understand them as literal, roughly 24 hour days. He then has His Holy Spirit to cause that very premise to be repeated at least two other times within the Scriptures. By the time that Moses wrote down what was impressed upon him by the Holy Spirit the account of the creation and the 10 commandment law, which was written by the very finger of God,- both of which speak of a six day creation - there had been some 400,000 days and everyone knew what a day was. When God wrote that in 6 days He made the heavens and the earth in the 10 commandments, mankind had lived upon the earth some 400,000 days and yet God himself wrote that the creation event was 6 days, knowing that the Hebrews knew what a day was. Knowing that the Hebrews understood that when the word for day was used with a number they were inclined to believe that it was literal, individual, roughly 24 hour days. God knew all of this, and yet He made no allowance in the writing of the 10 commandments that would express the days of creation as anything else as regards the time of the event. Some 1200, 1300 years of life after the even God is still Himself writing that the creation event was 6 days.

Friend, I'm going with God! Now, if by saying what you are saying against my attitude towards your reasoning, you feel that by now I should have thrown up my hands and said, "Glory, glory hallelujah, philadiddle has explained to me the truth and I believe as he believes!" Well, I can pretty well assure you that that just isn't going to happen. For you have believed in the philosophies based on the 'basic principles of this world' and I believe on the truth of God. That He isn't playing games or that His purpose was to cause to be written regarding His power and glory and wisdom and knowledge in all that He created in this realm is some hidden secret through which He expects us to gleen some esoteric understanding. It's just the plain and simple truth that reveals the power and wisdom and knowledge of who He is. He created near instantaneously this entire realm of creation for His good purpose which He will have done by the time the days of this realm reach the last two chapters of the Revelation.

The Scriptures, my friend, lay out a full and complete account of this realm of existence in which we live. That God created man and built for him an entire universe in which to live that would provide all that we need to live and that man sinned, but God in his mercy, made a way that some might be saved and in the end God will roll up this existence like a scroll and judge all angels and men and then have a kingdom where all those who trusted and believed Him will live forever and ever where He will be our God and we will be His people. The city of God will be a square of 12,000 stadia surrounded by the walls described and those who have believed God will live in it with Him in peace, love and security. In that city there will be none of the pain and suffering that we experience in this life because of sin and disobedience towards God. All the inhabitants of that city will not only know God, but love Him just as Jesus has told us is the GREATEST commandment.

But this existence in which we live began with God commanding into existence all the heavens and the earth. By His command the worlds were formed. Not by scientific processes. Ooops, there I go again with my long drawn out explanations. Sorry, and don't feel beholden to read all that I have written if you find it just long winded blather.

Cont.

 

[miamited]

Then you post: And when someone responds to that with "but we're talking about science which is God's creation, what does it say?"

Listen, the laws by which the creation runs are of God. I'm not convinced that science is. I'm not sure that God is pleased that we try to disprove Him through our study of what He has made. You obviously think that He is and that is a basic tenent that we will just have to disagree on.

Then you wrote: Then someone may respond with something along the lines of "Well, many scholars and christians have understood the creation account differently, there is a deep meaning in these other ways of understanding it and it is still all true, there is truth in its meaning, even if it isn't literal." And without even batting an eye you respond with more monster posts that just basically say "God is powerful and we need to believe Him and I really really really believe it this way."

Listen friend, have you never read the Scriptures? In nearly every one of the writings of the new covenant we are warned of false teachers and those who believe the lie and, as I understand the Scriptures, even among the church it's only going to get worse and not better. Jesus made a very telling comment that I have considered very, very deeply and in much prayer. He said to his disciples, "When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith upon the earth." Now friend, I'm impressed by that, that faithfulness to God is not going to get stronger or there be more and more people who believe, but rather less and less. The Scriptures warn that the end will not come until the great apostasy of the church. Hmmmmm. Jesus seems obviously to me to be saying that he may not find a single person on the earth who is faithful to God when he returns. Does that sound to you like there's going to be some great flood of faithful teachers and pastors among the church as we march closer and closer to the day of Jesus' return? So, yes, while I fully agree that there are those just as you proclaim, they may well also be fulfilling this very issue that Jesus brings up. My prayer is that you not also be swept up in this great tide of apostasy that is coming.

No, I'm standing with God and declaring that He is a God of such great power, wisdom and knowledge that He created everything just as He said and if I be condemned by Him for that, then so be it. If I be condemned by you for that doesn't really matter to me. Friend, listen to this one and singular plea from an old man with many years -- believe God! Don't fall for all those senseless arguments based on the 'basic principles of the world'. Just trust and believe God! It really isn't important to Him that you have great worldly knowledge. What He asks is that we trust and believe and most of all, love Him. Love Him! Don't just know about Him. Love Him. Spend time with Him every day. All that time that you give to studying these other issues, I challenge you to get down on your knees in a quiet place and just pour out your heart to Him and declare your steadfast love, not knowledge, love for Him. Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love the Lord your God with all your strength. Take that strength that you are giving to studying all the scientific reason you can find and turn it to Him. With all your heart. Empty your heart completely and fill it with love for your Creator. He will give you the answers that you seek. It is His delight, my friend, absolute delight to give knowledge and wisdom and understanding to the heart that is diligently seeking after Him.

God bless you, phil.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Vanderhaust]

Since the YECs who responded in the other thread I tried to make are ignoring my followup question, I'll try to be a little more direct.

If you think the universe is less than 10,000 years old because you reject the evidence for the big bang, then how would respond to an atheist who thought the universe was static and eternal?

Your question is misleading. I don't know of anyone who believes the earth is static and eternal.

 

[gluadys]

Your question is misleading. I don't know of anyone who believes the earth is static and eternal.

Most people through most of history have believed the universe is static and eternal, including Aristotle, Newton and most recently Fred Hoyle--who rejected (and named) Big Bang theory because it sounded too religious, proposing instead the steady state theory.

So the question is not at all misleading.

 

[miamited]

BTW you comment on my long-windedness, but consider that it took God some 300 pages to write all that He wanted you to know, so by comparison, I'm pretty brief.

 

[TasManOfGod]

If God and the scientific community dont believe the universe is static and eternal -that seals it then eh?

 

[philadiddle]

If God and the scientific community dont believe the universe is static and eternal -that seals it then eh?

But you don't accept the reasons that the scientific community has, so if someone doesn't accept what the bible says don't you think they would have no legitimate reason to think the universe had a beginning?

 

[TasManOfGod]

But you don't accept the reasons that the scientific community has, so if someone doesn't accept what the bible says don't you think they would have no legitimate reason to think the universe had a beginning?

God made people to believe anything they liked. Adam proved that but it did him no good

 

[philadiddle]

God made people to believe anything they liked. Adam proved that but it did him no good

You didn't answer my question.