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If the universe is <10,000 old....

NGC 6712

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The further we go back in time, the closer the moon would be, and the stronger the pull towards the Earth. If you want to apply inverse square, it would have a much greater pull the further back in time we go and probably would have been closer than what I said originally! It would have caused tsunami sized tidal changes all around the globe completely destroying any organism that was trying to make it's way in the world. It would have been a mess!
Tides go as the inverse cube not the square. It is the differential change in the gravitational force not the force itself responsible for tides.

The equation to be solved is: dr/dt = (constant) * r^(-5.5) where r is the separation. The constant you get from elementary physics plus estimates of the energy dissipation rates due to the positions of the continents on the Earth.

If you solve this you find that 4 billions years ago the separation is what I stated above. It is actually more than the linear calculation but you somehow have got the linear calc. to be more.

Either way - no tsunamis.


I think YOU need to recheck YOUR math! 5,000,0000 is five percent of the total distance, not 0.5%. Another thing to think about is what a change 5 million miles would have on the weather. Have you ever had a sunburn after an especially sunny day? Think about how bad that would have been for earth's little critters to have to deal with the kind of heat that would be made much worse if the planet was closer! Think about how bad it would be for struggling plant life as it would cook while rooted. The oceans would be drying up. It would be a horrible mess, especially for TOE which states that the foundation for the problem (the supposed age of the Earth and working backwards to realize how close the Earth would have been if it is that old and if the present is really key to the past) is a necessity for evolution to have happened!

4.5 billion years * 15cm a year = 675,000 km
Earth sun distance is approx. 150,000,000 km

675,000/150,000,000 = 0.0045 = approx. 0.5%.

i.e. no big deal.

Somewhere you are off a factor of 10.
 
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Assyrian

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Just a small correction here. Galileo opponents were actually the secular mainstream scientists of the day, the aristotelian philosophers. They are the guys that absolutely pummeled Galileo into hiding at one point in his life.

Theologians were actually very open in that day and were split about 50/50. The problem for Galileo was he picked a fight with a very egotistical pope who at the time was siding with mainstream science (as the catholic church generally does).

Now that does't in itself say the christian view is right, it merely excludes the Galileo affair as an example.
There certainly was a debate about the science and Galileo wasn't helped by using bad arguments like tides to back up his case. But if it had simply been an issue of science Galileo wouldn't have got into trouble. Galileo was condemned for heresy, for teaching doctrines contrary to scripture.
Internet History Sourcebooks
"We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare, that thou, the said Galileo, by the things deduced during this trial, and by thee confessed as above, hast rendered thyself vehemently suspected of heresy by this Holy Office, that is, of having believed and held a doctrine which is false, and contrary to the Holy Scriptures, to wit: that the Sun is the centre of the universe, and that it does not move from east to west, and that the Earth moves and is not the centre of the universe: and that an opinion may be held and defended as probable after having been declared and defined as contrary to Holy Scripture; and in consequence thou hast incurred all the censures and penalties of the Sacred Canons, and other Decrees both general and particular, against such offenders imposed and promulgated. From the which We are content that thou shouldst be absolved, if, first of all, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, thou dost before Us abjure, curse, and detest the above-mentioned errors and heresies and any other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church, after the manner that We shall require of thee.
It wasn't that the pope at the time was siding with the mainstream geocentrism. The church had always been geocentrist, people didn't need science to tell them the sun goes round the earth, you just look up in the sky and that is what it looks like is happening. Worse still, the natural reading of passages of scripture like the sun stopping for Joshuas is geocentric too, Joshua didn't command the earth to stop rotating he command the sun to stand still, which is how the church father interpreted the passage.
 
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Assyrian

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Calvin too.
When, without hesitation, he opens his mouth and tells the sun and the moon to deviate from the perpetual law of nature, it is just as if he had adjured them by the boundless power of God with which he was invested. Here, too, the Lord gives a bright display of his singular favor toward his Church. As in kindness to the human race he divides the day from the night by the daily course of the sun, and constantly whirls the immense orb with indefatigable swiftness, so he was pleased that it should halt for a short time till the enemies of Israel were destroyed.
John Calvin Commentary on Joshua.​
 
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Calminian

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There certainly was a debate about the science and Galileo wasn't helped by using bad arguments like tides to back up his case. But if it had simply been an issue of science Galileo wouldn't have got into trouble. Galileo was condemned for heresy, for teaching doctrines contrary to scripture.

Yes, he was condemned for heresy by one pope! There's no question had this been a different pope this wouldn't have happened. Many theologians of that day were open to alternative cosmological views.

It wasn't that the pope at the time was siding with the mainstream geocentrism. The church had always been geocentrist, people didn't need science to tell them the sun goes round the earth, you just look up in the sky and that is what it looks like is happening. .....

Of course that's true, but it was also true that mainstream astronomers (aristotelian philosophers) were also passionately geocentric and harassed Galileo relentlessly.

But yes of course, geocentrism is a natural inference. It's no wonder theologians read it into scripture. It's also not surprising that theistic evolutionists read big bang cosmology into scripture. I used to do it myself.
 
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gluadys

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But yes of course, geocentrism is a natural inference.

A natural inference from what?





It's no wonder theologians read it into scripture.

Did they have to read it into scripture or was it already there?



It's also not surprising that theistic evolutionists read big bang cosmology into scripture. I used to do it myself.

What makes you think theistic evolutionists read big bang cosmology into scripture? Most TEs I know read ANE cosmology in scripture.

Almost all the people I know who read big bang cosmology into scripture are YECs (or sometimes OECs). I am glad to hear you no longer hold to interpreting scripture anachronistically--at least as far as the big bang is concerned.
 
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gluadys

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We agree then, that the writer believed he was describing a real snake and a real historical event.

Not quite. I agree the writer really meant "snake" when he wrote "snake". Whether he meant a real snake or a fictional snake is a different issue.



The visual frame of reference for any writer is the location of his eyes at the time of writing. It's a safe assumption that he was standing on the ground looking up (if indeed was describing the sky). The sky from that perspective looks like a dome or ball.

You know, I have had many a YEC tell me this is precisely what one should NOT do: look to nature as a reliable guide to interpretation. They claim the only acceptable frame of reference is the text itself. A natural frame of reference can't be trusted, according to them.'

I think they are wrong in this. Nice to see you agree with me.



Many things going into exegesis. Literary context. Historical context. As well as the location of the writer when he's describing something. That gives you his point of reference.

Now we are talking exegesis, literary context, historical context, a frame of reference that includes looking at the world around you--or rather around the author.


That is NOT "just looking at the text and letting it say what it says." That is (horrors) INTERPRETATION.


Honestly i think you have a false view of YEC's and how they reason from the scriptures. They start with the text and then reason from it.


Really! You trust in fallible, human reasoning!!. If there is one common theme in what I have usually heard from YECs it is precisely that one is to trust the word of scripture as it is, rather than fallible human reasoning.


I started out by saying it is naive to claim one is simply looking at the text as it is, letting the text speak for itself.

And as we have continued this conversation, you have made a 180 degree turn. Now we have in addition to the text: exegesis, literary context, historical context, author's frame of reference--including his frame of reference vis-a-vis nature and to top it all off, putting this altogether rationally.

I rest my case. Clearly you are not really speaking of just letting the text speak for itself, but of using reason and all sorts of other clues to construct an interpretation which makes sense to you.

Just as the rest of us do.
 
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Calminian

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You know, I have had many a YEC tell me this is precisely what one should NOT do: look to nature as a reliable guide to interpretation. They claim the only acceptable frame of reference is the text itself. A natural frame of reference can't be trusted, according to them.'

And gluadys I can absolutely guarantee you that you misunderstood them. What I am doing exegetically would not violate the conscience of any YEC that I know of.

Exegesis does not mean you ignore literary and historical contexts. Those are aspects intrinsic to the text, as they are present in the writers mind when he writes his words. They are present in the minds of the audience that first read them. They're not just optional, they're essential.

I can all but guarantee you you've not understand what they were telling you. If you want to give me specific quotes, or even a name, I can address it further. I don't think you're going to find a single YEC here are anywhere else that will take issue with my methods, even if the disagree with a particular interpretation.

But what I can conclude at this point, is, you still don't quite grasp the concept of exegesis. I think that's the issue for you, if I can humbly suggest that without coming off too knowitallish.

Now we are talking exegesis, literary context, historical context, a frame of reference that includes looking at the world around you--or rather around the author.

Correct. All YEC's would embrace this.

That is NOT "just looking at the text and letting it say what it says." That is (horrors) INTERPRETATION.

That is precisely looking at the text and letting is say what it says.
 
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Calminian

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A natural inference from what?

From observation with the natural unaided eye.

Did they have to read it into scripture or was it already there?

It's nowhere to be found.

What makes you think theistic evolutionists read big bang cosmology into scripture? Most TEs I know read ANE cosmology in scripture.

Ever heard of Glen Morton? Classic example.

Almost all the people I know who read big bang cosmology into scripture are YECs (or sometimes OECs). I am glad to hear you no longer hold to interpreting scripture anachronistically--at least as far as the big bang is concerned.

I would say, I'm amazed at just how carefully the ancient writers were to leave ancient cosmology out of the text. There is literally not a hint of it anywhere. It's truly amazing.
 
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Keachian

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It's nowhere to be found.

Sun stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.
The sun rises and the sun sets and hurries back to where it rises.
and that's just the start of the passages which talk about a disc-like world with the sun moving not the world.


Ever heard of Glen Morton? Classic example.
Can't even find him with a Google search

I would say, I'm amazed at just how carefully the ancient writers were to leave ancient cosmology out of the text. There is literally not a hint of it anywhere. It's truly amazing.
You're amazed at an assertion which is completely contradictory and doesn't in anyway deal with the Bible is "true" I'm frankly amazed that this argument keeps on getting trotted out, without thinking about it we clearly put at least a Copernican cosmology into the Bible purely because that's what we are so very used to in the post-copernicus era, our own assumptions that the text doesn't talk about cosmology and when it does talks of a copernican model is frankly not dealing with the relevant passages, does this affect the validity of the Bible? Nope, does this mean that we should hold an ANE cosmology, nope, but to approach the text without realising that the ANE worldview is what we are dealing with when we are engaging the text does little justice to what the text is actually talking about, does little but quite frankly eisegesis to get what we want out of the text rather than what God wants us to get out of the text.
 
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Calminian

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Sun stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.
The sun rises and the sun sets and hurries back to where it rises.
and that's just the start of the passages which talk about a disc-like world with the sun moving not the world.

Were the event to happen today, this is exactly how it would be reported on the news. Even modern astrophysicists use terms and sunrise and sunset.

All movement is described from a point of reference, because all movement is relative. People on the freeways traveling at at 65 mph often look back and tell their kids to sit still. How can this sit still at 60mph?

When the proverbs talk about not moving the ancient boundary stone set by their forefathers, are they embracing ancient cosmology? For everyone knows those stones are moving on the earth around the sun and high speeds.

And when the policeman tells you you failed to stop at the stoplight, is he embracing ancient cosmology, ignoring the speed at which that light is actually traveling in space as it is fixed to the earth?

Terms like sunset and sunrise are literal and accurate descriptions of movement with the land as a point of reference. There's nothing metaphorical about it. It's literally accurate.

Can't even find him with a Google search...

Try two n's. Here you go:
Know Your Creationists: Glenn Morton
He's quite the popular TE.

You're amazed at an assertion which is completely contradictory and doesn't in anyway deal with the Bible is "true" I'm frankly amazed that this argument keeps on getting trotted out, without thinking about it we clearly put at least a Copernican cosmology into the Bible purely because that's what we are so very used to in the post-copernicus era, our own assumptions that the text doesn't talk about cosmology and when it does talks of a copernican model is frankly not dealing with the relevant passages, does this affect the validity of the Bible? Nope, does this mean that we should hold an ANE cosmology, nope, but to approach the text without realising that the ANE worldview is what we are dealing with when we are engaging the text does little justice to what the text is actually talking about, does little but quite frankly eisegesis to get what we want out of the text rather than what God wants us to get out of the text.

Sorry, but I'm not following what you're trying to say here. Perhaps it was over my limited mind. That does happen.
 
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Assyrian

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Yes, he was condemned for heresy by one pope! There's no question had this been a different pope this wouldn't have happened. Many theologians of that day were open to alternative cosmological views.
That's the thing about the Catholic Church they only have one pope at a time. Any condemnation by the inquisition will happen under one pope or other. Of course there was history between Galileo and pope Urban VIII, Urban had even been Galileo's friend, but Galileo used their history to insult the pope in his book Dialogue of Two Systems. If it had been another pope would Galileo have exasperated him too? Quite possibly, this is Galileo who was pretty trollish.. But it doesn't matter that Galileo was his own worse enemy. The big issue facing the church was that heliocentrism contradicted what they saw as the plain meaning of scripture and that was why the Inquisition condemned it.

It is possible if Galileo had been of a more pleasant disposition that the church would have come around, given time as evidence for heliocentrism mounted up, but that wasn't Galileo, and the geocentrists church condemned him for heresy. It is worth noting they there were pretty vocal geocentrists in both the Catholic Church the Lutherans and Calvinists. Even after Galileo's Dialogue was removed from the Index of Prohibited books, it was being printed into the nineteenth century with notes criticising heliocentrism. The Missouri Lutheran Synod were arguing for geocentrism up until 1920.

Of course that's true, but it was also true that mainstream astronomers (aristotelian philosophers) were also passionately geocentric and harassed Galileo relentlessly.
Any new scientific theory has to face that reaction from the scientific mainstream. It is how you separate the genuine new science from all the crackpot stuff. The more radical an idea is the stronger the evidence needed to establish it. But science does come around and the new ideas become mainstream themselves if they are good.

That is very different form rejecting science because it disagrees with your interpretation of scripture.

But yes of course, geocentrism is a natural inference. It's no wonder theologians read it into scripture.
You seem seem to unusual for a Creationist. Most YECs cannot see how people back then could read scripture that way and assume they were twisting the text to fit their cosmology. Can you see how Joshua 10 would be understood by a geocentrist? Or Ecclesiates 1:5? The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises?

If you simply didn't know whether it was the earth that moved or the sun, how would you read it? What is the natural meaning of the passage?

It's also not surprising that theistic evolutionists read big bang cosmology into scripture. I used to do it myself.
What glaudys said :)
 
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Calminian

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....The big issue facing the church was that heliocentrism contradicted what they saw as the plain meaning of scripture and that was why the Inquisition condemned it.

Again this is just factually inaccurate. Theologians were split on the issue about 50/50 at that time. The Pope did not go after all heliocentrists. He had a beef with Galileo, particularly for the disrespect Galileo had for him. So he slapped him down with heresy on the issue of geocentrism. But again, it's false to say this was a consensus belief in the church.

It is possible if Galileo had been of a more pleasant disposition that the church would have come around, given time as evidence for heliocentrism mounted up, but that wasn't Galileo, and the geocentrists church condemned him for heresy. It is worth noting they there were pretty vocal geocentrists in both the Catholic Church the Lutherans and Calvinists. Even after Galileo's Dialogue was removed from the Index of Prohibited books, it was being printed into the nineteenth century with notes criticising heliocentrism. The Missouri Lutheran Synod were arguing for geocentrism up until 1920.

There was a geocentric faction, just as there is a TE faction today. There were theologians that were quite dogmatic, and theologians much less dogmatic. In most cases you'll only find 1 or 2 quotes from theologians in the matter back then. That to me speaks volumes on the enthusiasm for geocentrism.

And I actually have a theory as to why. Geocentrism was a difficult model for many ancient theologians to swallow, even though it was considered mainstream science. For it put earth, God's footstool at the center of the world, with heaven, God's throne, revolving around it. That just didn't jive with scripture. In fact, descriptions of heaven began to change from a physical place to a spiritual non-corporial place in order to resolve the conflict and prevent God from revolving around us on earth. Heliocentrism resolved the issue a little, but modern views of a vast heavens fit the biblical text much better. It's no wonder to me geocentrism died a quick theological death.

Any new scientific theory has to face that reaction from the scientific mainstream. It is how you separate the genuine new science from all the crackpot stuff. The more radical an idea is the stronger the evidence needed to establish it. But science does come around and the new ideas become mainstream themselves if they are good.

When it comes to observational issue like like this, they certainly do. But when it comes to historical miracles, like creation, science can never come around. It violates the very core of its philosophical nature.

You seem seem to unusual for a Creationist. Most YECs cannot see how people back then could read scripture that way and assume they were twisting the text to fit their cosmology. Can you see how Joshua 10 would be understood by a geocentrist? Or Ecclesiates 1:5? The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises?

To tell you the truth, I don't think most theologians thought about this event in cosmological terms at all. They were simply looking at it as an event of motion the way all events of motion must looked at&#8212;via a point of reference. Now some did use it to express cosmological views, or reinforce their own cosmological beliefs. Most didn't.

We use this kind of language to describe events like this every day, and cosmology often doesn't come to mind. It is a literal and accurate way to describe things.

I don't think the writer, either, was expressing a belief in cosmology any more than the writer admonishing us not to move ancient border stones. Nor did the eunuch when he ordered his chariot to be stopped in order to be baptized by Philip. Nor does the police office who orders you to stop your vehicle. There's really no other way to describe motion events.
 
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newfaithfull

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About Joshua 10 and the passage in Ecclesiastes. I don't fully understand what's being debated but I know that even scientists speak of sunrise and sunset.

an astronomical society will tell you that sunrise today (in my part of the world) is at 5:36 am and sunset at 7:58 pm.

Why should a sunrise be called anything other than a sunrise or why should a sunset be called anything other than a sunset?
 
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Calminian

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About Joshua 10 and the passage in Ecclesiastes. I don't fully understand what's being debated but I know that even scientists speak of sunrise and sunset.

an astronomical society will tell you that sunrise today (in my part of the world) is at 5:36 am and sunset at 7:58 pm.

Why should a sunrise be called anything other than a sunrise or why should a sunset be called anything other than a sunset?

I think you have a better grasp on the issue than most.
 
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Keachian

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About Joshua 10 and the passage in Ecclesiastes. I don't fully understand what's being debated but I know that even scientists speak of sunrise and sunset.

an astronomical society will tell you that sunrise today (in my part of the world) is at 5:36 am and sunset at 7:58 pm.

Why should a sunrise be called anything other than a sunrise or why should a sunset be called anything other than a sunset?

Joshua 10 has the sun and moon stopping, not the earth, so calminian's claim that there is no ANE cosmology in the text is simply flat out wrong, when Joshua clearly shows a geocentric cosmology.

On Ecclesiastes, we're not really quibbling on the sunrise/sunset thing, but rather the hurries back to where it rises again bit, which to me says first of all that they didn't believe that the earth was round, because we have the sun not needing to light the other half of the world, conveying eagerness to be at work again and so we must understand it as a geocentric text.
 
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Smidlee

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Joshua 10 has the sun and moon stopping, not the earth, so calminian's claim that there is no ANE cosmology in the text is simply flat out wrong, when Joshua clearly shows a geocentric cosmology.
Does not NASA uses geocentric when launching satellites in space? The reason Joshua used "geocentric cosmology" was because his head wasn't in space but "down" here on Earth. Notice it common to use words like "down and "up" too which are geocentric. The cop also use geocentric when he says you were going 70 mph in a 55mph zone. From the sun view you are traveling a lot faster than 70 mph.
When Joshua wrote the sun stop is was relative to his position. The word "stop" itself doesn't have much meaning in space for how can you know if anything is truly "stopped". Just like "up" and "down" "stop" need something to related to.
 
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Calminian

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Joshua 10 has the sun and moon stopping, not the earth, so calminian's claim that there is no ANE cosmology in the text is simply flat out wrong, when Joshua clearly shows a geocentric cosmology.

On Ecclesiastes, we're not really quibbling on the sunrise/sunset thing, but rather the hurries back to where it rises again bit, which to me says first of all that they didn't believe that the earth was round, because we have the sun not needing to light the other half of the world, conveying eagerness to be at work again and so we must understand it as a geocentric text.

I think you missed newfaithfull's point. Using the sun as a point of reference, the sun doesn't rise, yet you're fine with the term sunrise. So are modern astrophysicists. The reason is because motion is always relative, and can only be described using a point of reference. In the case of the term sunrise, the point of reference is always the land.

Ever been driving and said to someone, "Did you see that sign that just went by? But in reference to the land, the sign wasn't moving at all, it was the car that went by the sign. But using the car as a point of reference, the land is actually going by. This is not metaphor, this is not figurative language this is just plan literal descriptions of movement, using named or assumed points of reference. It's a non starter issue.

Also, the hebrew term for earth is erets, which means dry land. It's not a reference to planet earth. Thus, you are correct that the writer did not see it as a sphere. It's got curves, and coastlines and mountains.
 
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Calminian

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Does not NASA uses geocentric when launching satellites in space? The reason Joshua used "geocentric cosmology" was because his head wasn't in space but "down" here on Earth. Notice it common to use words like "down and "up" too which are geocentric. The cop also use geocentric when he says you were going 70 mph in a 55mph zone. From the sun view you are traveling a lot faster than 70 mph.
When Joshua wrote the sun stop is was relative to his position. The word "stop" itself doesn't have much meaning in space for how can you know if anything is truly "stopped". Just like "up" and "down" "stop" need something to related to.

Well said. :thumbsup:
 
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