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If the Bible is not literally/historically "true", then why is it special?

leftrightleftrightleft

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Here are a few of my thoughts
I think you need to clarify your definitions as to what you mean by "taking the bible literally", because there is no non-literalist vs literalist camps among bible interpreters. Maybe for certain passages, but not the entire bible. Jesus calls himself a door in John 10:7. Nobody takes that literally.

I guess I was specifically referring to the story of Noah in Genesis. Some people take this to be a historical narrative of literal events while others view it more as either a metaphor or exaggeration of events written down in a way so that it provides a certain meaning for us today.

Listen to a sermon by John Piper and tell me if a high school teacher could do the same. If you think they could then tell me what one you listened to.

My English teacher in high school was phenomenal. Unfortunately no smart phones back then so I never got a video.
 
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Ron Gurley

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OP:..why is "The Bible" "special"?
1. God the Holy Spirit inspired and superintended
2. It is the "word of God"..Scriptura Suprema
3. MIRACULOUSLY remembered, inspired, dictated, written, copied, translated, preserved, interpreted, and distributed.
 
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Ron Gurley

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The "word of God" !

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the WORD which I am commanding you,
nor take away from it,
that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God
which I command you.

Deuteronomy 17:19
(WORD)...It shall be with him
and he shall read it all the days of his life,
that he may learn to fear (respect) the LORD his God,
by carefully observing all the WORDS of this law and these statutes,

John 1:1,14,,,The Deity of Jesus the Christ
In the beginning was the Word, (logos)
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
...and the WORD (logos) became flesh and dwelt among us...

Matthew 4:4
But He answered (devil) and said, “It is written, ‘
MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE,
BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”

Luke 8:11
“Now the parable is this:
the seed is the word of God.

1 Peter 1:23
for you have been born again
not of seed which is perishable
but imperishable,
that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Ephesians 6:17
And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION,
and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit,
of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

2 Timothy 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed,
accurately handling the word of truth.

Revelation 22:6-19
 
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TLK Valentine

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OP:..why is "The Bible" "special"?
1. God the Holy Spirit inspired and superintended
2. It is the "word of God"..Scriptura Suprema
3. MIRACULOUSLY remembered, inspired, dictated, written, copied, translated, preserved, interpreted, and distributed.

"MIRACULOUSLY" as in there was no possible mundane way for it to have occurred?
 
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TLK Valentine

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The "word of God" !

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the WORD which I am commanding you,
nor take away from it,
that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God
which I command you.

Deuteronomy 17:19
(WORD)...It shall be with him
and he shall read it all the days of his life,
that he may learn to fear (respect) the LORD his God,
by carefully observing all the WORDS of this law and these statutes,

John 1:1,14,,,The Deity of Jesus the Christ
In the beginning was the Word, (logos)
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
...and the WORD (logos) became flesh and dwelt among us...

Matthew 4:4
But He answered (devil) and said, “It is written, ‘
MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE,
BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”

Luke 8:11
“Now the parable is this:
the seed is the word of God.

1 Peter 1:23
for you have been born again
not of seed which is perishable
but imperishable,
that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Ephesians 6:17
And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION,
and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit,
of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

2 Timothy 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed,
accurately handling the word of truth.

Revelation 22:6-19

Yes, yes... that's all well and nice.... but was there a question you were attempting to answer here?
 
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Ron Gurley

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The 4 Gospels + Acts are HISTORY reported by many EYE WITNESSES. The "authors" (apostles) had perfect spirit-led RECALL which allowed them to dictate to their "scribes" from "oral tradition" to produce the first written MSS decades later!

John 14:26
But the Helper, (God) the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said (AND DID!) to you. (PERFECT SPIRIT-LED RECALL!)

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus DID, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

John 20:31
but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
 
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Ron Gurley

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The 4 Gospel HISTORIANS wrote with a particular "audience" in mind.

Matthew: to Jews...blood and legal lines...MESSIAH!
Mark (Peter): to Gentiles/Romans-just the FACTS (Jack)
Luke: the appointed FACTUAL reporter using Mark's
John: the clean up batter. Jesus is DEITY. The "I am's"

Dr. Luke: Acts of the Apostles (Chapters 1-12?)
 
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TLK Valentine

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The 4 Gospels + Acts are HISTORY reported by many EYE WITNESSES.

And how did they witness the events which had no witnesses?

The "authors" (apostles) had perfect spirit-led RECALL which allowed them to dictate to their "scribes" from "oral tradition" to produce the first written MSS decades later!

So they were infallible, then?

John 14:26
But the Helper, (God) the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said (AND DID!) to you. (PERFECT SPIRIT-LED RECALL!)

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus DID, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

John 20:31
but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

All this is true because they said it was...
 
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Petros2015

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And how did they witness the events which had no witnesses?

Investigative reporting? I was wondering this myself. Someone would have had to talk with Pilate, or someone else who was in the room at some point might have become a Christian at a later time, for example. Not implausible. Or the Pilate story could have been recounted by Christ himself post-resurrection. I'm inclined to think the former though as a possibility.

It's interesting that we don't have witnesses for events where there were really no witnesses. The story recounts finding the empty tomb, but not Christ suddenly standing up within it with full Hollywood cgi-effects.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Investigative reporting? By the authors/apostles?
You Betcha!

"It's interesting that we don't (do?) have witnesses for events where there were really no witnesses."

Like what? 12 disciples + supporting women traveled with Jesus the Christ CONSTANTLY for ~3 year ministry. Thousands witnessed His MANY signs + wonders + miracles + baptism + preaching + teaching + trials + crucifixion + death + mummified entombment + resurrection + "spirit-body" appearances + ascension + etc.

Ain't that enough?
 
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Ron Gurley

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The 4 Gospels + Acts MUST be historical or all mankind is hopelessly dead in their sins, and Mankind is NOT reconciled with God. The OT is a MIXTURE of History accurately recalled by the Abramic Nations + poetry + wisdom + prophecy! + "types of Christ" + Kings + Judges + etc.

In the OT, God was relating to Man using a different METHOD and "economy" before the NT and the Cross.
 
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ExodusMe

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Petros2015

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Ain't that enough?

I think you misunderstood - what I meant was, there were no witnesses inside the empty tomb itself, and there is no description of exactly what went on inside in the Gospels. Personally, if I were fabricating something, I would not have omitted the climax of my story. But if you are not fabricating the story, you don't have a choice about omitting that part or not, because you don't have it.

On the other hand, other areas such as conversations with Pilate where the apostles themselves were not present but are in the Gospels, you might get, if Pilate or one of the soldiers repents and becomes a Christian at a later point. Or from a servant who witnessed, and later came to believe. Or just from taking the time to talk to someone who was there. I imagine Jesus made an impression on them.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Investigative reporting? I was wondering this myself. Someone would have had to talk with Pilate, or someone else who was in the room at some point might have become a Christian at a later time, for example. Not implausible. Or the Pilate story could have been recounted by Christ himself post-resurrection. I'm inclined to think the former though as a possibility.

Pilate's small potatoes -- his official actions would be a matter of public record, but you can't expect the record of a specific crucifixion to have been preserved after all these years.

I was thinking more Joseph's dream encounters with the angels, at least according to Matthew. Obviously dreams have no eyewitnesses except the dreamer, and Joseph dies quietly offstage at some point during the Gospels, so clearly he's not going to be around to talk to decades after the fact.

It's interesting that we don't have witnesses for events where there were really no witnesses. The story recounts finding the empty tomb, but not Christ suddenly standing up within it with full Hollywood cgi-effects.

Surely the women at the tomb would qualify as witnesses...
 
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Petros2015

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I was thinking more Joseph's dream encounters with the angels, at least according to Matthew. Obviously dreams have no eyewitnesses except the dreamer, and Joseph dies quietly offstage at some point during the Gospels, so clearly he's not going to be around to talk to decades after the fact.

Presumably, he would have passed that information to Mary, who was with the apostles through the Acts and quite close with them.

Surely the women at the tomb would qualify as witnesses...

But they were outside, and not present until after the stone was rolled away. So no account of what happened inside.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Presumably, he would have passed that information to Mary, who was with the apostles through the Acts and quite close with them.

Quite the leap from eyewitnesses to presumably.

But they were outside, and not present until after the stone was rolled away. So no account of what happened inside.

True, and even then, the accounts differ on crucial details... even the presence of Jesus.
 
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Petros2015

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Quite the leap from eyewitnesses to presumably.

It's not a big leap to think that he would have told his wife, and she passed the event to the apostles. I don't consider the gospels of a given apostle to be 100% eyewitnessed account by that specific apostle. Some of it has to be back-filled from secondary sources like Mary or other witnesses or given by Christ or Spirit post resurrection. And if you meet God, you probably have a personal interest in backfilling as much of the story as you can. Take the story of the Samaritan woman at the well:

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)


This whole story seems to happen while He is alone with her. So who is writing it down? They have to come by the story after the fact.

One of my favorites is Mark 13:14

So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

It might be a matter of bad translation into english, but did Jesus just pause mid-sentence in a verbal conversation and say "(let the reader understand)"? For a Gospel that hasn't been written yet? He breaks the 4th Wall there and addresses the audience directly, for the next 2000 years.
 
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TLK Valentine

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It's not a big leap to think that he would have told his wife, and she passed the event to the apostles. I don't consider the gospels of a given apostle to be 100% eyewitnessed account by that specific apostle.

Just saying that we've gone from "eyewitness" accounts to presumably secondhand sources...

Some of it has to be back-filled from secondary sources like Mary or other witnesses or given by Christ or Spirit post resurrection. And if you meet God, you probably have a personal interest in backfilling as much of the story as you can. Take the story of the Samaritan woman at the well:

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)


This whole story seems to happen while He is alone with her. So who is writing it down? They have to come by the story after the fact.

Funny thing about that story -- it occurs in the beginning of John's Gospel, and fits an interesting pattern.

I've discussed this in other threads, so I hope you'll excuse me for cutting and pasting...

You've probably noticed that John's Gospel doesn't exactly "mesh" with the other three -- the synoptic gospels. That's no accident; that's good narration.

Look at some of the events that John uses to open his narrative:

In John 2:13-21 Jesus clears out the moneychangers from the temple. First, you'll note that while the other Gospels put this event later in Jesus' ministry (as the "last straw" which sets the Pharisees after him), John has it happen towards the beginning of Jesus' public life.

Now notice:
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

Next event: John 3:3-4 --
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Now, John 4:9-15 -- Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well:

[9] Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
[10] Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
[11] The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
[12] Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
[13] Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
[14] But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
[15] The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

Later on, the disciples catch up to him (literally, but never figuratively). Still in John 4:

[30] Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.
[31] In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.
[32] But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
[33] Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?

What do all these events have in common?

First, aside from the Temple, all of these events are unique to John's Gospel -- there's no mention of them anywhere else. And even the Temple incident is strange because of the timing, as I pointed out.

But what's important is the recurring theme: At every one of these unique events, Jesus is trying to explain something important -- first the the people of Jerusalem, then to a Pharisee, then to the woman at the well, and finally to his own disciples, and not one of them understand him. And why not?

Because they all were taking him too literally, they missed the point.

Do you think John was trying to tell us something? I do.

He did everything but hold up a big ol' neon sign... but to this day, literalists blunder through with their blinders securely in place.



One of my favorites is Mark 13:14

So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

It might be a matter of bad translation into english, but did Jesus just pause mid-sentence in a verbal conversation and say "(let the reader understand)"? For a Gospel that hasn't been written yet? He breaks the 4th Wall there and addresses the audience directly, for the next 2000 years.

Of course not -- the author of Mark decided to add in his own commentary -- not the first nor the last time that happens in the Bible.

Does that mean that sometimes, divine inspiration isn't good enough? How odd...
 
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Ron Gurley

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POST #33: "there were no witnesses inside the empty tomb itself, and there is no description of exactly what went on inside in the Gospels"

Read closer. Peter + John went inside and saw the burial wraps and shroud. They were separated and folded. If someone stole the body, they would have taken the entire "mummified" Jesus.

Mark 15:46
Joseph bought a linen cloth, took Him down, wrapped Him in the linen cloth (mummified) and laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.

Mark 16:5
Entering the tomb, they (women) saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe (ANGEL?); and they were amazed.

JOHN 20:3 So Peter and the other disciple (John)started for the tomb.

JOHN 20:4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.

JOHN 20:5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen (mummy wraps!) lying there but did not go in.

JOHN 20:6 Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there,

LUKE 24:12b Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.

JOHN 20:7 as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen.

JOHN 20:8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw (the same things) and believed. (HE HAS RISEN!)
 
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TLK Valentine

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The 4 Gospels + Acts MUST be historical or all mankind is hopelessly dead in their sins, and Mankind is NOT reconciled with God.

It must be historical, because if it's not, we're all hosed... spiritually speaking.

That's not evidence of anything, it's wishful thinking.
 
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