If Mary was sinless?

[JJB]

You are MOST welcome! I am happy to share the truth with you anytime, anywhere!



Peace

Sorry, TLF, but all that was contained in that post of yours was opinion, which you are welcome to keep.

 

[thereselittleflower]

But the prophecies were always centered around Christ. The coming Messiah was the focus, not His earthly mother.

Shalom.

The prophecies regarding Mary were ALWAYS CENTERED AROUND CHRIST!


THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!


And that is why all Catholic doctrine regarding Mary is ultimately CENTERED AROUND CHRIST . . .for what we believe about Mary ALWAYS POINTS TO Christ.

Mary ALWAYS POINTS TO Christ!



however, that does not negate the fact that God had a SPECIFIC WOMAN in mind from the beginning or that God PLANNED for a SPECIFIC WOMAN to be the Mother of the Redeemer . ..


Mary SPECIFICALLY was planned for from the beginning to usher in the Christ.



Peace

 

[JJB]

Gwenyfur


You have simply changed your beliefs into statements of fact, but all they are are your beleifs . .

They are not facts.




Peace

As the unbelievers like to say, my irony meter just went off the scale.

Really, TLF, did you have something to add the the conversation or do you want to continue to just post your objections, as if that settles the matters at hand?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sorry, TLF, but all that was contained in that post of yours was opinion, which you are welcome to keep.

No, not mere opinion, but the teaching of the Ancient Church, which is why I am glad to present this truth to you anytime, anywhere.



Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

As we're happy to share it with you.


The only prophecy (s) I recall is that He would be born of virgin, I don't recall a specifc name given.

Where is the specific name of Jesus given in the OT as the name of the Messiah?


Your argument is a dead end Lynn.


Also, I havep pointed to two prophecies. . the first by God himself . .the WOMAN whose seed would be the Chirst.

The VIRGIN whom the Chirst would be born of.


Talking about the SAME woman.

You assume facts not in evidence. If it wasn't Mary it most certainly would have been someone else.

No, you misunderstand. I am assuming nothing. The facts are in evidence. I have demonstrated the logical progression one must follow if one is not gong to hold God's word to a double standard.

To believe that God's promise in Gen 3:15 refers to a specific man (the seed) but not a specific woman (the Woman) is to hold a double standard in interpreting God's word.

If the Seed was specific, then the individual woman whose seed He is is also specifically referred to in that verse.

If the One to be born of the virgin is specifically referred, to, then the virgin He is to be born of is also specifically referred to.


This is simple logic.


That Chirst is pre-eminent is a given. That does not negate that Mary was planned for by God SPECIFCALLY just as JESUS WAS.

And I'm sorry that you believe that any part of our salvation depends upon Mary. I most wholeheartedly disagree with that and so does, in my opinion, the Scriptures.

Did any part of the fall of man resulting in original sin and your resulting wounded human nature depend on Eve?


Yes or no?



Peace

 

[xapis]

The prophecies regarding Mary were ALWAYS CENTERED AROUND CHRIST!


THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!


And that is why all Catholic doctrine regarding Mary is ultimately CENTERED AROUND CHRIST . . .for what we believe about Mary ALWAYS POINTS TO Christ.

Mary ALWAYS POINTS TO Christ!



however, that does not negate the fact that God had a SPECIFIC WOMAN in mind from the beginning or that God PLANNED for a SPECIFIC WOMAN to be the Mother of the Redeemer . ..


Mary SPECIFICALLY was planned for from the beginning to usher in the Christ.



Peace

So if it's really all about Christ, there's no reason to venerate Mary today any more than Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David, Salathiel, Rahab, or anyone else listed in the earthly lineage of Jesus.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

So if it's really all about Christ, there's no reason to venerate Mary today any more than Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David, Salathiel, Rahab, or anyone else listed in the earthly lineage of Jesus.

Did you ever understand that these Saints are not dead, and are now with Christ, and that we are only asking them to pray for us, as our friends and family in Christ... as we also are praying to Christ?

Or are you confused and beleive that we are WORSHIPING Mary and the Saints as Gods themselves?

Forgive me...

 

[xapis]

Did you ever understand that these Saints are not dead, and are now with Christ, and that we are only asking them to pray for us, as our friends and family in Christ... as we also are praying to Christ?

Or are you confused and beleive that we are WORSHIPING Mary and the Saints as Gods themselves?

Forgive me...

Respectfully, I do understand that to be your belief.

My question: Is Christ not sufficient enough to be Intercessor?

...and that's some paradise for the saints in Heaven having to listen to the groanings of people here on earth.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Respectfully, I do understand that to be your belief.

My question: Is Christ not sufficient enough to be Intercessor?

...and that's some paradise for the saints in Heaven having to listen to the groanings of people here on earth.

Christ (only) is our Mediator. There is no other.. accept no substitutes.

We are commanded to pray for one another... In other words, We are commanded to be Intercessors for each other....

Where (living on Earth or living with Christ) the Saint is, has no bearing on the fact that we pray for one another. (And it is their good pleasure to do as Christ commanded.)

Veneration is just respect (NOT WORSHIP< which is reserved for the Trinity alone.) for one who has gone before us and having completed the race in good faith shows us the way.... We are to be imitators of them who are imitators of Christ.

Forgive me.....

 

[Adalbert]

So if it's really all about Christ, there's no reason to venerate Mary today any more than Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David, Salathiel, Rahab, or anyone else listed in the earthly lineage of Jesus.

Those OT faithfuls are in big trouble for not having venerated Mary. How do they get around this?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Protestantism has never established the case for the sole suficciencey and authority of scriptures.

Actually Protestants have done this by useing scripture but when people don't take the word of God as authority they will never see sole suficiencey and the authority of scriptures as being established.

Basically, the Bible establishes that God is the absolute power and authority in his creation. So His word should then also be held as the absolute power and authority.

 

[mesue]

TLF, Gwenyfur said

][/I]Mary was born of the same sinful line that the rest of us poor shmucks were. She was sinful, in need of a Savior, who she was blessed to bear...Y'shua...

She does not reign as the Queen of Heaven, she is not able to forgive sins or perform miracles...

lest we all forget...she was an average jewish girl of the line of David...she was born of flesh and died in flesh...saved by the death and resurrection of G-d's Holy Son Y'shua the Christ.

The End...

Anything else...is pure fabrication of doctrines and not the teaching of the Scriptures

and you replied

Gwenyfur


You have simply changed your beliefs into statements of fact, but all they are are your beleifs . .

They are not facts.




Peace

Can you substantiate this by providing a Book, Chapter and Verse to reveal to us that Mary is, indeed, the Queen of Heaven? If you are going to teach us, you need to teach us on our level. I.E. We need to see Scripture references, it's just how we are. It's how we learn. Just like the blind need to feel braille, it's how they learn. True teachers reach out to their students. Look at how Jesus taught, He went to His students. God came down from His Throne of Grace and stooped down to the level of man so that we could understand and know Him in our terms. Should we, as teachers do any less? To do so otherwise would make us Pharisees.

 

[Adalbert]

Respectfully, I do understand that to be your belief.

My question: Is Christ not sufficient enough to be Intercessor?

...and that's some paradise for the saints in Heaven having to listen to the groanings of people here on earth.

I always wondered what kind of heaven it is for those who are up there looking down onto the misery of family and children and nations, being unable to make things perfect for them.
Imagine them going to Christ in my behalf and asking for goodies for me and Jesus saying 'no'.
Mary is asked to get goodies for Catholics. Imagine how disappointed she would be if Jesus said 'no'. And why would He say no to any of them and make their heavenly life a misery? I used to ask a grandmother to get things for me from Jesus (when I was a child). Nothing every came and I learned to dislike her for her impotence. And wondered why Jesus was so mean to her.

 

[nephilimiyr]

...and that's some paradise for the saints in Heaven having to listen to the groanings of people here on earth.

LOL That's a good one!

I believe the Bible is silent on alot of the activies of the saints that have gone on to heaven. I tend to believe that they know what our outcome will be so that they are right now rejoicing and praiseing God in His presence. They probably know whether we're going to make it or not and may even know when we are going to join them and are looking forward to reuniting with us so we may share in the absolute love and peace and glory that is the Lord.

Heck, what I'm I talking about? We can be in His presence and experience and share in His love, peace, and joy here on earth too!!!

 

[GenemZ]

If Mary was sinless, then how weird it must have been. She wouldn't have obeyed ANY of the laws of the day? Doesn't that make her sinfull? Not only that, but if she DID obey the laws, then she was being deceitfull. Even Jesus followed the 10 commandments, but he never had to have a sin atonment. Wouldn't someone wonder WHY Mary never had to do anything? Wouldn't that have been made a BIG deal, and certainly, it would have made it into the bible? If she was sinless, then why doesn't they bible come right out and say that?

I think the following says it all.....

Luke 1:46-48 (New International Version)
"And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed."

​

Those who are sinless do not require a Savior. The reason we need a Savior is because we are sinners!

Matthew 1:21 niv
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

​

Grace and truth, GeneZ

 

[edie19]

Jesus' coming was already prophesied in the Old Testament and what God prophesies comes to pass. So Mary saying "no" wouldn't have changed a thing. His purpose would've happened through someone else. But I'm sure since He has foreknowledge that He knew what she would say. To insinuate in any way that our salvation depends upon Mary in any way is going way outside of the teachings of Scripture. This constant focus on Mary, imho, just plain isn't right and isn't biblical. Jesus alone is our Savior, period.

Amen and Amen

 

[icedtea]

You are MOST welcome! I am happy to share the truth with you anytime, anywhere!



Peace

Here you are thinking your opinion is truth.

 

[edie19]

My question: Is Christ not sufficient enough to be Intercessor?

I know you know this - but Scripture is clear that Christ (& the Holy Spirit) is the only intercessor we'll ever need. Reading Romans and truly understanding that fact is one of the primary reasons I went back to the protestant church after attending a RCC with my husband.

 

[mesue]

Jesus' coming was already prophesied in the Old Testament and what God prophesies comes to pass. So Mary saying "no" wouldn't have changed a thing. His purpose would've happened through someone else. But I'm sure since He has foreknowledge that He knew what she would say. To insinuate in any way that our salvation depends upon Mary in any way is going way outside of the teachings of Scripture. This constant focus on Mary, imho, just plain isn't right and isn't biblical. Jesus alone is our Savior, period.

Mordecai said it best when he said to Esther

Esther 4:14: For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?

Mary knew to disobey would bring distruction to her and her father's house (family)

 

[GenemZ]

TLF, Gwenyfur said

and you replied

Can you substantiate this by providing a Book, Chapter and Verse to reveal to us that Mary is, indeed, the Queen of Heaven?

Many pagan traditions were brought into the church as it stumbled along. One of them, was to introduce its version of the popular pagan desire to have a queen of Heaven to worship. The church at that time gave the pheasants a lolly pop to pacify that strong desire. Trouble is, lolly pops may satisfy an immediate felt need. But, they cause decay. Spiritual decay.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/evilqueen.htm

Another thing overlooked (and will explain if asked). Demons were the first drag queens to exist. Some take great pleasure in taking on this female form and gently ruling with evil intend (evil because it draws men away from knowing the true God).

There is a spiritual war being waged. There will always be casualties of war. Some never question the enemies propaganda and end up dead to the will of God.

Grace and truth, GeneZ