If Mary was sinless?

JJB said:

Why don't you start a thread listing them all with their attendant meanings. I'm sure that could be interesting.

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Why would it be interesting to you?

What about it would be interesting?


What would you do with that information?




Peace

JJB said:

If Mary is merely impeccable and not omniscient, then how does she listen to all you RCC's prayers? Or maybe that is why y'all have to say the same thing over and over, so as not to confuse Mary?

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

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Why would you think Mary might get confused?


Why do you think Mary would have to be omniscient to hear the prayers of a minorirty of people?

Omniscient means ALL knowing, not PART knowing.


How is knowing what part of humanity is praying, "ALL" knowing?


To suggest it is is simply non-sensical. . . . Part is not "ALL" . . . .




Peace

Davidnic said:

I have an honest question for non-Catholics here. I know we don't agree on the issues of the dead hearing us and intercessory prayer in that fashion. I made a post earlier trying to get some unity on what we could share as common truths. Those generally don't go over well in these conversations.

But you do realize that it is not required. A Catholic can decide not to pray to the saints and still be Catholic. The church does not say that it is necessary to do so.

I realize that this is more about our view of the theology in general, I was just wondering if people thought Catholics had to pray to saints.

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I am Catholic, and I don't pray to Mary or any Saints. I am still deeply inspired by how they live their lives for God, and I enjoy reading about them, but I have enough family and church members to pray for me.

Lynn73 said:

How do you want me to say that I disagree with Catholicism's view of Mary?

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Just try not to say it a mocking manner or obinstinately, especially on something you know Catholics are sensetive about.

And don't Catholics slam Protestant's faith?

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I don't deny that has happened and you have every right of ask for a bit of charity

Is is possible you're being a bit too sensitive?

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That is possible especially after the past few days when it has been one thread after another has been baiting Catholics into an agurement.

After all, I've been referred to as a heretic and it's inferred over and over that those of us that disagree with the Catholic view of the Eucharist have no life in us

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Calling someone a HERETIC is against the rules and should be reported.

How would you like to be told you have no life in you. I'm sorry if my views of Catholicism and it's views on Mary disturb you but I can't change them to suit. Catholics don't mince words usually when they talk about Protestants and what we believe so why do we have to walk on eggshells around you?

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If you don't want things to change around here then by all means don't change what you do.

thereselittleflower said:

Why would it be interesting to you?

What about it would be interesting?


What would you do with that information?




Peace

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It would be interesting because it would reveal what the RCC teaches about Mary. I don't know what I'd do with that information -- I cannot divine the future.

Lynn73 said:

Slamming is in the eye of the beholder. We do NOT slam the humble Mary of Scripture. What we "slam", as JJB aludes to above, is the Catholic's distorted view of her. That's what I think the "objectional post" was trying to get across.

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That is indeed what I meant, Lynn. Mary is a beautiful servant of God.

thereselittleflower said:

Why would you think Mary might get confused?


Why do you think Mary would have to be omniscient to hear the prayers of a minorirty of people?

Omniscient means ALL knowing, not PART knowing.


How is knowing what part of humanity is praying, "ALL" knowing?


To suggest it is is simply non-sensical. . . . Part is not "ALL" . . . .




Peace

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Well, how does Mary hear all of the prayers to her? Since she is less than omni, how does she hear people talking at the same time?

Thanks for sharing your opinion again.

Cyberdyne1 said:

So more numbers = Right?

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No . . that it is the ancient Christian faith handed down from the apostles makes it right.

Actually the Word says more people will go to hell then will go to heaven...

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Simply a logically false application of a teaching in scripture.


That teaching in scripture applies to non-Christians, not to Christians in a general sense.

Now, let's look at numbers shall we?

There are 2 billion people who name the name of Christ and which are counted as Christians.

Over 1.5 billion of them believe Mary was sinless.

Now, let's look at that number compared to the population of the world.


Over 6 billion people in the world.

Only 1.5 billion believe Mary was sinless. . .


Where is the larger number? ie the 'more people'?


If you are going to use, directly or by allusion,to scripture, the please use and apply it correctly within its proper context instead of misapplying it to a group it does not apply to for a reason that has nothing to do with its context.

To misapply it as you did above is logically invalid.

Peace

Lynn73 said:

Slamming is in the eye of the beholder. We do NOT slam the humble Mary of Scripture. What we "slam", as JJB aludes to above, is the Catholic's distorted view of her. That's what I think the "objectional post" was trying to get across.

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the Catholics view is that Mary is the Mother of God. If you feel this is distorted, well...I'm sorry to hear that, because she is the Mother of God. Don't you follow the Nicene Creed, I thought all Christians did.

But one of the most beautiful thing about Mary, the Mother of God is that even though you do have all of these negative things to say about Jesus' mom, she still loves you very much and so do I. So...Peace be with you!!!

JJB said:

Well, how does Mary hear all of the prayers to her? Since she is less than omni, how does she hear people talking at the same time?

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From earlier:

Davidnic said:

No. To be omniscient is a quality only to God. Any knowledge that Mary and the saints have beyond the norm is totally at the will and grace of God.

The ability of Mary the saints to hear our prayers so they can pray with us and for us is a function the will of God to allow and provide for such things.

It is a common thought that for Mary to hear our prayers (the prayers of so many) that it implies the quality of being omniscient. However when God sends prophecy to a person that does not mean that they know all things and are omniscient. It only means that God wills them to know. God wills a gift so they can carry out His plan.

Part of the Church's view of omniscience is that God depends on Himself alone for knowledge. Mary can not claim that, nor does the Church attribute that to her.

Like all Marian devotion, it must serve to glorify God and not detract from Him. God allowing Mary and the saints the ability to pray for us and hear our prayers as family and friends serves to glorify His unending and infinite mercy and love. His desire to bring us to the fulfillment of Christ's prayer (John 17:22) that all may be one. That living or dead those who love the Lord are one body.

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You may disagree that is what is happening. I'm sure you don't disagree that God could do so if He so chose. You just don't believe that He is doing so. But that is the logic we work under and we do not believe that she is omniscient.

Davidnic said:

From earlier:



You may disagree that is what is happening. I'm sure you don't disagree that God could do so if He so chose. You just don't believe that He is doing so. But that is the logic we work under and we do not believe that she is omniscient.

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That does answer my question. Thank you Davidnic.

Do you have scriptures that support the RCC position that Mary hears prayers? I really am not interested in anything other than scriptures. If the answer is, "no, there is no biblical support," then let it stand. As scripture tells us, let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Davidnic said:

So the question is Is Mary Sinless?

Catholic say yes others no.


Do I have the reasons right (if not please correct me):

Cathoic reasons:

The savior was so perfect He came from a women concieved without sin. How this happened was by the direct action of God and not without Christ. She needed Christ like everyone else. God just allowed the redemption to act on her earlier.

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I would tweak the first sentence a little . .. . For the Savior to inherit an unwounded, perfect human nature He need to be born of a woman who could naturally pass on to Him a perfect human nature.

Non-Catholic rasons:

No one is sinless but Christ and those washed of sin need Christ to be so.


Do some catholics take devotion to mary too far and into supersition and view it wrongly. Yes.

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I would say the number is quite small just as the number is quite small among protestants who place the bible on too high a pedestal and actually think the bible and Christ are one and the same (yes, I have seen some post such in here before).

The issue is, a few who take devotion to something or someone too far are the exceptions, not the rule.

Do some non-catholics take opposing the marian facets of catholic faith too far and not give enough credit to Mary. Yes.

But the important word above is some. Some people doing it does not make it the view of either group as a whole.

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Exactly.

But catholics don't worship mary. And non-catholics do not hate her.

Can we all agree that, no matter what else we believe: That Mary was special. The she did not need the new testament, to see Christ or to hear Him, to believe and accept Him. She just accepted God's will. She and Joseph followed the will of God in ways that are beautiful and special. In ways that make them worthy examples to follow in how they accept and lead to Christ. And that is the heart of marian devotion. To lead to Christ. When catholics put mary above Christ that is not what the church teaches.

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I need to repeat this . . you stated it so well!AMEN brother! Thank you!
(sorry david . . for some reason I thought you weren't Catholic )

We all needed proofs and history. Mary just accepted and loved Him. Both as her Lord and her child. And she followed Him to the foot of the cross in her love. Joseph follwed the will of God and protected and took care of them both.

That is why the Holy family should not be just a model in our family lives, but a model for the dialogue of Christians.

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AMEN!

So can we agree that her example is an excellent one to follow, even if we do not agree on other things?

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Aboslultey!


Peace

Here's an article I came across the other day... http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9007chap.asp

Here are some parts that answers where we are told Biblically or Scripturally, which ever you prefer...that we should pray to Mary...it does not specifically say Mary, but it does say the saints and well, Mary is a saint so...

First, God expects us to pray for one another. We see this in both the Old and New Testaments.

In a dream, God commanded King Abimelech to ask Abraham to intercede for him: "For [Abraham] is a prophet and he will pray for you, so you shall live" (Gen. 20:7). When the Lord is angry with Job's friends because they did not speak rightly about God, he tells them, "Let my servant Job pray for you because I will accept his [prayer], lest I make a terror on you" (Job 42:8).

Paul wrote to the Romans: "I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you" (Rom. 15:30-32).

James says: "Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (James 5:16-17). Thus, according to Scripture, God wants us to pray for one another. This must mean that prayer for one another cannot detract from the role of Jesus Christ as our one mediator with God.

Second, the reason that Christians have the power to pray for one another is that each person who is baptized is made a member of the Body of Christ by virtue of the Holy Spirit's action in baptism (1 Cor. 12:11-13). It is because the Christian belongs to Jesus Christ and is a member of his Body, the Church, that we can make effective prayer.

The reason we pray to the saints is that they are still members of the Body of Christ. Remember, the life which Christ gives is eternal life; therefore, every Christian who has died in Christ is forever a member of the Body of Christ. This is the doctrine which we call the Communion of the Saints. Everyone in Christ, whether living or dead, belongs to the Body of Christ.

From this it follows that a saint in heaven may intercede for other people because he still is a member of the Body of Christ. Because of this membership in Christ, under his headship, the intercession of the saints cannot be a rival to Christ's mediation; it is one with the mediation of Christ, to whom and in whom the saints form one body.

Some Christians--most Protestants, in fact--deny that the Bible gives support for devotion to the saints, but they are incorrect. The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven, just as they approach God the Father and Jesus Christ the Lord: "But you have approached Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, and the assembly and church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood which speaks better than that of Abel" (Heb. 12:22-24).

Does the Bible say we should approach the saints with our prayers? Yes, in two places. In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, "each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints."

Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4 we are told that something similar happened when the Lamb opened the seventh seal of the book: "Another angel came and stood on the altar, having a golden censer, and many incenses were given to him, in order that he will give it with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incenses went up with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."

JJB said:

That does answer my question. Thank you Davidnic.

Do you have scriptures that support the RCC position that Mary hears prayers? I really am not interested in anything other than scriptures. If the answer is, "no, there is no biblical support," then let it stand. As scripture tells us, let your yes be yes and your no be no.

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There is biblical support . . So the answer is "yes".


However, the question then becomes, "what is biblical support?"


So I ask you what kind of biblical support are you willling to accept?

Explicit?


Or Implicit?


Are you willing to accept Implicit support if there is no expliict evidence?



Pece

JJB said:

It would be interesting because it would reveal what the RCC teaches about Mary. I don't know what I'd do with that information -- I cannot divine the future.

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Well, most of the titles given to Mary are poetic in nature. You say that they would reveal what the Church teaches about Mary . . .. but would they to you?

Do you agree that one would have to understand the nature of the titles before they could begin to understand what the titles actually reveal?

Would you agree that poetic titles do not reveal what they appear to reveal on a superficial read?

Would you agree that in order to properly undrestand poetic titles one would need to understand what the the author INTENDED to convey first?


Would you agree that one cannot understand poetic titles unless they already understand what the Church teaches about Mary?


If so, then simply reading her titles will not reveal what the Catholic Church teaches, but only what you would impute according to your subjective and poorly formed understanding of the Catholic Church.

You would then simply end up with a ton of wrong conclusions based on misinformation.


You are approaching this backwards unless you already posses a proper understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary . . and as evidenced in ths thread, your undrestanding is in error.


So I don't agree that a list of the titles of Mary will do what you claim . such a list will not reveal anything about what the Church teaches about Mary without also turning to the Church to learn what She means by such titles and accepting that She knows what She ntends by the words She uses. . .



Peace

JJB said:

That does answer my question. Thank you Davidnic.

Do you have scriptures that support the RCC position that Mary hears prayers? I really am not interested in anything other than scriptures. If the answer is, "no, there is no biblical support," then let it stand. As scripture tells us, let your yes be yes and your no be no.

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Do you want scriptures that specifically state that Mary can or just that the dead can?

I'm sure you've seen earlier posts here (and other places)with the Church fathers stuff ( and the belief we have as far as Apostolic tradition. I think for the most part we will have to agree to disagee on that front ) and since you want just scripture, I won't go into that.

There is a site Scripture Catholic (link) that has our scriptural view on saints and intercession and such.

Here is a link to an article called "Finding Mary in scriptures" (link)

I'll be going away for a few days (thurs-sun) and that is why I gave you the site. If this thread is still going when I get back I can rejoin the conversation then. If it is not we could continue this with PM's or meet again later in one of the Mary threads that is bound to come up in GT

Even though I think we will disagree a bit over our different interpetations of Scripture on the sites, I believe they can be a basis for future dialogue.

More unites us than divides us. May our conversations continue in the Love of Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

And may all forgive each other on both sides for harsh words that come up at times in threads like these.

thereselittleflower said:

(sorry david . . for some reason I thought you weren't Catholic )

Peace

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I got's me the icon

You have probably seen me around before here a bit and more in OBOB. My character, up on the left, usually looks different. But I put the geekier stuff on him since I am going to a game convention this weekend.

vrunca said:

the Catholics view is that Mary is the Mother of God. If you feel this is distorted, well...I'm sorry to hear that, because she is the Mother of God. Don't you follow the Nicene Creed, I thought all Christians did.

But one of the most beautiful thing about Mary, the Mother of God is that even though you do have all of these negative things to say about Jesus' mom, she still loves you very much and so do I. So...Peace be with you!!!

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Please get it straight. I don't slam or put down the humble Mary revealed in Scritpure who gave birth to our Lord and Savior. I respect her, she's blessed, she's a wonderful example of submission to the Lord but that's as far as I'm going. I don't see Jesus or the Bible giving her the position Catholicism gives her so therefore I don't give her that position and that doesn't equal slamming her. I would never slam the Mary of the Bible.

HowardDean said:

And even if Mary and grandma can hear us, they sure can't do anything about it.

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we don't expect them to do anything about. There is a false premise you are working under here. They do not answer prayers, God does. Theyhear them. We ask them to hear and answer us through their going to God with our needs. The same way you ask others to go to God for you with your nedds. there is no differnce between the two with the exception the saints are perfect, in heaven and are face to face with God and you freinds down here are sinners, struggling and who do not see God face to face.

And a saint does not have to be ominpresent in order to hear prayers. Ominpresnt is not why they can hear prayers. they can hear them becuase God allows them too.

The bible says that all of heaven rejoices when one sinners repents. Ovbviously from what the bible says, they can hear us just fine and do not have to be divine in order to do it.

Benedicta00 said:

we don't expect them to do anything about. There is a false premise you are working under here. They do not answer prayers, God does. Theyhear them. We ask them to hear and answer us through their going to God with our needs. The same way you ask others to go to God for you with your nedds. there is no differnce between the two with the exception the saints are perfect, in heaven and are face to face with God and you freinds down here are sinners, struggling and who do not see God face to face.

And a saint does not have to be ominpresent in order to hear prayers. Ominpresnt is not why they can hear prayers. they can hear them becuase God allows them too.

The bible says that all of heaven rejoices when one sinners repents. Ovbviously from what the bible says, they can hear us just fine and do not have to be divine in order to do it.

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That sure sounds like they are doing something.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.