"If Mary was sinless,she could have died instead of Christ"

[Jonathan95]

Hi,

I've heard an argument that if Mary was sinless/immaculately conceived, then Mary could have died on the cross for our sins instead of Christ.

Now, I don't believe this (sounds blasphemous by the way), but how should I answer it?

I have been thinking, that since sin entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12), then it must be a man who dies for our sins, as the last Adam, which Jesus is.

I also read this today in the Catechism of The Catholic Church:

"[...] No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all." (CCC, 616).

Mary's person wasn't divine, thus couldn't die for our sins on the cross.

 

[Michie]

Mary still needed a Savior. She is the creation. Not the Creator.

She would not had been sinless if the Creator did not make it so for the purpose of Christ.

 

[New Legacy]

Hi,

I've heard an argument that if Mary was sinless/immaculately conceived, then Mary could have died on the cross for our sins instead of Christ.

Now, I don't believe this (sounds blasphemous by the way), but how should I answer it?

I have been thinking, that since sin entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12), then it must be a man who dies for our sins, as the last Adam, which Jesus is.

I also read this today in the Catechism of The Catholic Church:

"[...] No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all." (CCC, 616).

Mary's person wasn't divine, thus couldn't die for our sins on the cross.

Mary was sinless by the work of Christ. God is not limited by time, so He applied the accomplishment of a future even onto her.

 

[ourladyoftherosary]

Hi, Jonathan. What Michie and New Legacy said! Also, pushing my little sister isn't as horrible as pushing the principal of my school. Although both actions are by themselves equally wrong, the gravity of the second is worse because sin also takes into account WHO it offends. So, even the tiniest sin is an infinite offense because it offends and infinite and eternal God. This infinite and eternal offense/debt could only be repaid by God Himself. Even all the angels in heaven could not repair this. It had to be God. We did not need a sinless being to repair the debt, but we needed God Himself to do this. If we just needed any sinless person, any person born without original sin could have done it, not just Mary. The hypostatic union is so critical theologically because only God Himself can reconcile humanity with the Divine, but only a real human could repair our relationship with God on behalf of the rest of us. Jesus had to be fully God and fully man for His death and resurrection to have any meaning for us. I hope that helps somewhat. God bless you.

"Jesus paid a debt He didn't owe, because we owed a debt we couldn't pay."
- Dr. Scott Hahn

 

[ebia]

Also, pushing my little sister isn't as horrible as pushing the principal of my school.

No, it's worse.

 

[ebia]

Hi, I've heard an argument that if Mary was sinless/immaculately conceived, then Mary could have died on the cross for our sins instead of Christ. Now, I don't believe this (sounds blasphemous by the way), but how should I answer it? I have been thinking, that since sin entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12), then it must be a man who dies for our sins, as the last Adam, which Jesus is. I also read this today in the Catechism of The Catholic Church: "[...] No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all." (CCC, 616). Mary's person wasn't divine, thus couldn't die for our sins on the cross.

If one reduces Jesus's story to "sinless one dies for everyone's sins" then that might follow. But that's so thin a shadow of the incarnation-life-crucifixion-resurrection-ascension story that it's laughable.

It's like saying "may car is yellow, so if I grab a yellow cardboard box that should get me to work instead".

 

[ourladyoftherosary]

No, it's worse.

:-( I'm sorry. That was a bad example. I can't think of an example of what I was trying to say. So, just ignore this analogy.

 

[Sayre]

Mary's sinlessness, IMHO, is not the same as Jesus'. Mary was still born with a sin nature, Jesus was not.

 

[Athanasias]

Mary's sinlessness, IMHO, is not the same as Jesus'. Mary was still born with a sin nature, Jesus was not.

Not sure what this means. She had a human nature that was gifted with freedom from all sin orignal and personal. Jesus also had a human nature though Christ was a divine person with 2 natures one human and one divine. Mary had one human nature but was completely sinless from the very beginning when she was created.

 

[Athanasias]

Hi,

I've heard an argument that if Mary was sinless/immaculately conceived, then Mary could have died on the cross for our sins instead of Christ.

Now, I don't believe this (sounds blasphemous by the way), but how should I answer it?

I have been thinking, that since sin entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12), then it must be a man who dies for our sins, as the last Adam, which Jesus is.

I also read this today in the Catechism of The Catholic Church:

"[...] No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all." (CCC, 616).

Mary's person wasn't divine, thus couldn't die for our sins on the cross.

Bingo! You got it right! The main reason Mary could not die for our sins and save us is because she does not have a divine nature. This is because when we(finite creatures) commit sin against God(who is infinite) we end up putting a infinite gap between us and God because the sin gets its seriousness from the one we offend. Only Christ has the infinite nature of God and the finite nature of man that can gap that bridge and that is why He is called the mediator between God and man( 1 Tim 2:5)

 

[Sayre]

Not sure what this means. She had a human nature that was gifted with freedom from all sin orignal and personal. Jesus also had a human nature though Christ was a divine person with 2 natures one human and one divine. Mary had one human nature but was completely sinless from the very beginning when she was created.

That's nice, but I don't agree. She was without sin, but not without sin nature. Are you claiming Eve had no sin nature? And if so, how did Eve have the inclination to eat the fruit?

 

[Athanasias]

That's nice, but I don't agree. She was without sin, but not without sin nature. Are you claiming Eve had no sin nature? And if so, how did Eve have the inclination to eat the fruit?

Oh Ok. Good question. Yeah she was able to eat fruit not because she had a sin nature but because she had free will. Does that help? Now after she ate the fruit using her free will she then had a fallen nature(meaning she lost the 3 preternatural gifts God gave humanity and God's friendship or what we call sanctifying grace.)

Mary is the Second Eve according to scripture. She fulfills what Eve did not do. Mary had free will too but Christ gifted her as New Eve with a redeemed sinless human nature as Eve Had before the fall. So Mary did not have original sin or what we would call concupisense(the pull to do acts contrary to God) but she still had free will.

Does that help?

 

[Sayre]

Oh Ok. Good question. Yeah she was able to eat fruit not because she had a sin nature but because she had free will. Does that help? Now after she ate the fruit using her free will she then had a fallen nature(meaning she lost the 3 preternatural gifts God gave humanity and God's friendship or what we call sanctifying grace.)

Mary is the Second Eve according to scripture. She fulfills what Eve did not do. Mary had free will too but Christ gifted her as New Eve with a redeemed sinless human nature as Eve Had before the fall. So Mary did not have original sin or what we would call concupisense(the pull to do acts contrary to God) but she still had free will.

Does that help?

It helps me understand your position, but I'm still not sure I agree. Mary was the yes to Eve's no. But I'm not sure how this implies Mary had no sin nature. I'm not a believer in immaculate conception of Mary.

 

[Athanasias]

It helps me understand your position, but I'm still not sure I agree. Mary was the yes to Eve's no. But I'm not sure how this implies Mary had no sin nature. I'm not a believer in immaculate conception of Mary.

Well this may help you. here is a debate I did on that. All you have to read is the opening statement of mine if to see a deeper explanation of this from biblical typology and the early Church. http://www.christianforums.com/t7274365/

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hi,

I've heard an argument that if Mary was sinless/immaculately conceived, then Mary could have died on the cross for our sins instead of Christ.

Now, I don't believe this (sounds blasphemous by the way), but how should I answer it?

I have been thinking, that since sin entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12), then it must be a man who dies for our sins, as the last Adam, which Jesus is.

I also read this today in the Catechism of The Catholic Church:

"[...] No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all." (CCC, 616).

Mary's person wasn't divine, thus couldn't die for our sins on the cross.

It worked like this - Mary was sinless because she was given the Baptismal Grace just on the promise of Christ's sacrifice - by her taking on the role of Mother to the Lord - before she was born.

IE - Jesus did a pre-saved [pre baptism] for her.

Cos God knows all things and knew She would cooperate with her free will.
Plus giving her graces unknown to humanity - helped keep her sinless - and just so we remember - Eve and Adam had the same graces - yet they chose sin, Mary did not.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Theotokos does not possess the divinity. Christ is fully God, fully Man. Only the God-Man can enter into death and conquer it. Mary is fully human. The harrowing of hell, the conquering of death, the rebooting of the human race, and the miracle of Pascha are not something Mary could achieve. She lacks the divinity and Sonship of Christ. But Mary played a TREMENDOUS role in the Passion and Resurrection. She gave birth to our victorious King. She said Yes to God! She bore Him, she raised Him, protected Him, and she was with the Lord through much of His Passion, and at the foot of the Cross as well as at the Resurrection event. She is the Mother of the Church. The Theotokos is the Second Ark!

But just because of the Theotokos's state of sinlessness, that doesn't make her able to save the human race in an atonement?

 

[Galilee63]

...and our Heavenly Mother Mary "intercedes" on behalf of Jesus for us.

Hence, The Holy Rosary prayers and other prayers to Jesus/God through our Heavenly Mother.

There is a great deal more you would all 'know from Jesus speaking to your hearts" IF one cracks open one's own heart to Jesus/God through praying to Jesus and our Heavenly Mother thrice daily (The Holy Rosary) focussing on Jesus' Sorrowful Passion and Agonies when Jesus died for us including Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet at 3pm daily.

Then Jesus is able to answer one's own questions.

Kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Theotokos does not possess the divinity. Christ is fully God, fully Man. Only the God-Man can enter into death and conquer it. Mary is fully human. The harrowing of hell, the conquering of death, the rebooting of the human race, and the miracle of Pascha are not something Mary could achieve. She lacks the divinity and Sonship of Christ. But Mary played a TREMENDOUS role in the Passion and Resurrection. She gave birth to our victorious King. She said Yes to God! She bore Him, she raised Him, protected Him, and she was with the Lord through much of His Passion, and at the foot of the Cross as well as at the Resurrection event. She is the Mother of the Church. The Theotokos is the Second Ark!

But just because of the Theotokos's state of sinlessness, that doesn't make her able to save the human race in an atonement?

I think folks confuse sinless with being Divine.
Its a wonder they didnt consider Adam and Eve to be God too....pre fall.

 

[Tigg]

The Theotokos does not possess the divinity. Christ is fully God, fully Man. Only the God-Man can enter into death and conquer it. Mary is fully human. The harrowing of hell, the conquering of death, the rebooting of the human race, and the miracle of Pascha are not something Mary could achieve. She lacks the divinity and Sonship of Christ. But Mary played a TREMENDOUS role in the Passion and Resurrection. She gave birth to our victorious King. She said Yes to God! She bore Him, she raised Him, protected Him, and she was with the Lord through much of His Passion, and at the foot of the Cross as well as at the Resurrection event. She is the Mother of the Church. The Theotokos is the Second Ark!

But just because of the Theotokos's state of sinlessness, that doesn't make her able to save the human race in an atonement?

Thank you much. I just never was quite sure how it all worked. So thanks much.

And thanks for this thread and all who posted. Cleared up some huh questions of my own. God bless

 

[Jonathan95]

Thank you for your answers