If man is evolving, why is there still war?

[PsychoSarah]

Sarah, the Promised Land in the Old Testament was a piece of real estate that went from, as the Bible calls it, "Dan, even unto Beersheba" from north to south; and went from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea from east to west.

Known also as Canaan, then later, Israel.

Paradise was in the heart of the earth, next to Hell proper.

It was next to hell, yes, but there was a giant chasm that prevented people from crossing over from hell to paradise, or from paradise to hell.

 

[dad]

As my pastor points out, we are in the Promised Land now.

If the Promised Land was Heaven, then Moses died lost.

The promised land was Caanan, or what we might call Israel. We are not in any land that was promised. We are strangers in foreign lands. The promised kingdom to come is God's kingdom and we are not in that now in any real physical way. If you want to talk about something like 'well, we are in the spirit, so we have the kingdom inside us..' etc etc Fine. That in no way is a land to take up physical arms and kill and dismember people for.

Heaven is our final resting place.

True. Notice we do not have to fight for it here with wars? Jesus is coming down to fight and take over.

In addition, the Promised Land in the Old Testament was a place of near-constant warfare.

So? heaven will not be. Nor the new earth. War no more. Just because Israel long ago was in a stage where they had wars does not mean we are now. Jesus and His apostles did not take up arms.

And if the Promised Land in the Old Testament was a type of Heaven in the New then, Houston, we have a problem.

No. That was more like kindergarten. heaven will be a place of life and joy and where the desires of our heart are fulfilled etc.

The war in heaven where Satan gets cast down doesn't last long. When we meet God's angels and Jesus I think we will know why.

In any case we cannot use the wars of ancient Israel as any reason Christians must war now in the flesh. I think the US has really went wrong in that area.

 

[dad]

I agree with your sentiment, it isn't as if OT god didn't have specific targets in mind.

Right. They had a time and place with a certain diet, and laws, and enemies etc. Jesus did not deal with His enemies that way.

 

[dad]

But in the New Testament, after the Resurrection, Paul went "up" to Paradise.

2 Corinthians 12:4a How that he was caught up into paradise,

I hear that a lot. Maybe it was Paul. Paul does say he met a man though so maybe it was someone else.

Yes paradise or where we go to be with Jesus is not under the earth anymore.

 

[dad]

You do realize that the Greek underworld had a good and bad section too, right? But to be frank, so little is said about the "paradise" side that I can't make much of it, other than it couldn't have been a paradise like heaven, otherwise nothing would have changed in regards to the afterlife between the OT and the NT.. .

I think another term for the paradise under the earth of old was Abraham's bosom if I recall. However, I do not think that it exists any more persay there.

 

[commonsence]

not true if you read some history about the standards of living and history of war you will see that most people today live much much better than at any time in the past.

 

[commonsence]

and Kain killed is brother in the bible when they were supposedly were only 4 people on the planet and all the land and resources to them.

 

[commonsence]

they are 3 main reasons for war.
Economic
Nationalism
Religion
there is no way to stop economic wars as long as greed exist.
Nationalism and religion are almost the same thing.

 

[AV1611VET]

I hear that a lot. Maybe it was Paul. Paul does say he met a man though so maybe it was someone else.

That could be, dad.

It depends on whether or not you think Paul was beaten to death in Lystra or not.

Acts 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
Acts 14:20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.

I'll grant that it does say, "supposing."

Perhaps 2 Corinthians was Paul relating an NDE?

 

[dad]

That could be, dad.

It depends on whether or not you think Paul was beaten to death in Lystra or not.

Acts 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
Acts 14:20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.

I'll grant that it does say, "supposing."

Perhaps 2 Corinthians was Paul relating an NDE?

Perhaps. Or maybe it was just another guy that had another experience. I am not sure why I would be certain Paul being near dead one time had to be why Paul said he met a man who had an experience one time.

 

[dad]

they are 3 main reasons for war.
Economic
Nationalism
Religion
there is no way to stop economic wars as long as greed exist.
Nationalism and religion are almost the same thing.

Maybe there is more under the surface. What causes pride? What causes greed? Again I don't think evolution is a player.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It was next to hell, yes, but there was a giant chasm that prevented people from crossing over from hell to paradise, or from paradise to hell.

Not to be a crazy nitpicker, just thought I'd point out that the concepts specifically as contained in the texts are that of Gehenna and Paradise: the two sides of Hades or She'ol.

The King James, unfortunately, can be quite confusing as it doesn't exactly differentiate between Gehenna and Hades/She'ol, but translates them both as "Hell"--not that it's necessarily the complete fault of the translators, Luther's German Bible did the same as I recall. But the problem is that it conflates ideas that are rather distinct in the actual text and lends toward a rather confused idea of "Hell" that would be not only alien to the ancient Church but certainly would have been alien to Jesus who was speaking out from an explicitly Jewish understanding of the netherworld; She'ol the common place of the dead where both the righteous dead and the wicked dead rest until the the resurrection; using the established narrative language familiar to Jewish people: Ge-Hinnom, The Valley of Hinnom where the cult of Molech offered child sacrifices to the flames and Gan-Eden, the Garden of Eden (as a piece of trivia the Greek word paradeisos from which comes the English "paradise" is a Persian loanword referring to an enclosed garden).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AV1611VET]

The King James, unfortunately, can be quite confusing ...

Confusing to whom?

How is it we figured it out in English?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Confusing to whom?

How is it we figured it out in English?

Presumably by making an effort to understand the underlying source material and overarching context in spite of an indiscriminate use of the word "Hell" to translate different words and distinct concepts.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AV1611VET]

Presumably by making an effort to understand the underlying source material and overarching context in spite of an indiscriminate use of the word "Hell" to translate different words and distinct concepts.

-CryptoLutheran

Did you see my exegesis on Hell/Paradise, using only the KJV?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Did you see my exegesis on Hell/Paradise, using only the KJV?

You used the KJV while having a knowledge of a distinction between Hades and Gehenna.

If you want to get into an argument over the KJV I'm not interested. I was merely pointing out that what is obvious: More clear language > less clear language. A translation that unambiguously differentiates between Hades and Gehenna is helpful to understanding the ideas and concepts which Jesus used; especially in conjunction with a study of second temple period Jewish thoughts on such topics.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AV1611VET]

You used the KJV while having a knowledge of a distinction between Hades and Gehenna.

If you want to get into an argument over the KJV I'm not interested. I was merely pointing out that what is obvious: More clear language > less clear language. A translation that unambiguously differentiates between Hades and Gehenna is helpful to understanding the ideas and concepts which Jesus used; especially in conjunction with a study of second temple period Jewish thoughts on such topics.

-CryptoLutheran

Interesting that I can do with one Book, and using just English, while others need two books and two languages, isn't it?

Ever heard of Occam's razor?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Maybe there is more under the surface. What causes pride? What causes greed? Again I don't think evolution is a player.

Evolution isn't a player in everything, why would it be?

 

[dad]

Evolution isn't a player in everything, why would it be?

I do not expect it is much of a player. I mention that it is not a player here because so many evos think evolutiondunnit all. When it comes to some of the the main traits of man such as greed and pride and war, I guess we need to sideline evolution as a factor.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Interesting that I can do with one Book, and using just English, while others need two books and two languages, isn't it?

Ever heard of Occam's razor?

Ever hear of Hebrew?