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If man is evolving, why is there still war?

dad

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Evolution is just a scientific explanation of our ancestry.
Psychologically, humans today are almost the exact same as 3000 years ago.
The only difference is that 3000 years ago, the "war technology" was sticks and stones. Today, it's guns, F16's, bombs and nuclear technology.

No. The people pre flood were really wicked. They had rotted to a deathly stage of sin. Man in the end will be the same or worse. That seems to indicate times get worse..man gets more rotten with sin.
At the same time, human society has become a lot more moral and humane.
Utter rubbish. They are terrorists, and anti Chrisr baby killers, anti family and etc etc.

Back in the days that you idolize, people were stoned to death in public for rather trivial things.
Kept them in line. By the way that was not worldwide that was one people, that God was trying to shape up.
Today, we even protect the human rights of serial killers in the civilized world.
That IS bad!

We don't kill them in the streets. We lock them up and try to treat them as a human (providing shelter, food, medical treatment etc).
Gross. Sickening.

It's a myth that there is more hatred and war today then 1000s of years ago.

More sin...and more death.

Gong!
 
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dad

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Considering the fact that in the 20th century there were more humans alive then in the 5000 years preceeding it in total, wouldn't you expect that?

I don't think it says much.

Like said by someone in the thread, war is in a way no more or less then "organized killing". That's the point of going to war: to kill / get rid of the enemy.

For the vast majority of human history, this happened with sticks and stones.

Imagine what some of the ancient wars and battles might have looked like if they had access to nuclear technology, cluster bombs, f16's, ak47's, P90's, tanks, etc...

Imagine the crusades. Imagine the Persians. Imagine Roman conquests. Etc.

Here's a thought:
I say that if those ancients people had this technology - then none of us would be here. Because these people were a lot more barbaric then us.
Despite the world wars etc, we seem to have enough a sense of responsability to not destroy ourselves with these WMD's. I'm not so sure that I could say the same if the ancients had WMD's.


The decline of man is clear. I suspect that as man drew closer to hell, that hell improved his weapons.
 
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Gene2memE

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Do you understand absolute numbers vs proportional statistics?

The absolute number of individuals dying in modern conflict is higher than in pre-modern conflicts, due to the massively larger population and industrialised nature of such conflicts.

Although, since 1945 conflicts have been getting smaller and smaller and the knock-on effects (indirect casualties) are generally proportionally less than for pre-modern conflicts.

However, proportional to population, rates of violence and rates of war have decreased.

In paleolithic civilisations, rates of violent death are estimated at 1,000 to 20,000 per 100,000 people, based on examination of available human remains. Most pre-bronze age civilisations were engaged in continual, low-level warfare against their neighbours in competition for resources.

In ancient Roman - a particularly safe ancient civilisation - somewhere between 140 and 200 individuals per 100,000 of population were victims of homicide or died in war.

Globally in 2012, 6.2 people per 100,000 were victims of homicide or died in war. In the US, it was 4.7 per 100,000.


So, the rate of murder now is somewhere around a 20th of what it was 2000 years ago and about a 1/160th of what it was 10,000+ years ago.
 
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DogmaHunter

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It doesn't matter if there are more people back then. On a percentage of population basis the 20th century has been the bloodiest.

Considering that technology reached a stage where mass killing became a lot easier, it still doesn't say much.

Imagine the crusaders having access to WMD, explosives, machine guns, etc.
Don't you think they'ld be killing more people instead of with sticks and stones?


When you consider all the political deaths from all those dictators there are even more. But there is also the agreesor, the one who starts the war.

Every war is started by someone and fought for some reason.

Thats all hypothetical. People back then didn't have the brains to have that level of tech. Therefore they wouldn't have the responsibility and lived experience that goes with that level of thinking.

Hmmm. People weren't "less intelligent" back then. They just didn't have that level of knowledge about natural phenomena.
Having that knowledge wouldn't change anything about their ideological beliefs. We have enough examples today in the middle east where 21st century science doesn't stop one from being a fundamentalist religious barbarian.


We have security measures and many mechanisms in place to stop the crazy use of those powerful weapons.

First and foremost, we have the assurance of mutual destruction...

But that's not the point.
The point is that today's society is a lot better then anything that preceeded it.
The further you go back in time, the less solidarity and compassion you will find and the more barbarism and intolerance you will find.

If they did have WMD they would have had all the security counsels and checks like we have. Time and experience is the only reason we have powerful weapons today and we realized what damage they can do. It sort of stops everyone from pushing the first button because they know what the results would be. In fact if they did have WMD back then they would probably have ended up blowing themselves up. Its a bit like giving a kid a gun. They have no idea what the capabilities and dangers are and will end up hurting themselves more than anyone else.

You completely missed my point it seems.
 
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stevevw

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Statistics can be viewed a number of ways. You may be able to show a decline in war but then there will be in increase in poverty. You may be able to show a decline in crime but then there will be an increase in substance abuse or suicide. One way or another we are always in some sort of trouble.

According to this paper war has increased throughout time anyway.
http://www.historytoday.com/blog/2011/07/alarming-increase-wars

At the moment almost 1/2 the world is in poverty. So we are sort of killing people by allowing them to die without food while we throw tons of excess food away in the western countries because it doesn't meet our market expectations.
http://www.gatt.org/trastat_e.html

In the meantime depression is the fastest growing modern mental illness and one person commits suicide every 40 seconds around the world. So we dont need war to kill people. It seems peace time is killing more people than anything else. Many are becoming disillusioned with this world and are losing hope.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/one-per...orld-health-organisation-20140904-10cq0s.html
 
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dad

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Statistics can be viewed a number of ways. You may be able to show a decline in war but then there will be in increase in poverty. You may be able to show a decline in crime but then there will be an increase in substance abuse or suicide. One way or another we are always in some sort of trouble.

According to this paper war has increased throughout time anyway.
Alarming increase in wars | History Today

At the moment almost 1/2 the world is in poverty. So we are sort of killing people by allowing them to die without food while we throw tons of excess food away in the western countries because it doesn't meet our market expectations.
WTO | Trade Statistics

In the meantime depression is the fastest growing modern mental illness and one person commits suicide every 40 seconds around the world. So we dont need war to kill people. It seems peace time is killing more people than anything else. Many are becoming disillusioned with this world and are losing hope.
One person commits suicide every 40 seconds: World Health Organisation


Then there is abortion, where millions of babies are killed yearly. I wonder if animals commit suicide like that? Anyhow, survival of the fittest doesn't seem to fit with the state of man.
 
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dad

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First and foremost, we have the assurance of mutual destruction...
...
That would seem to be an incentive these days! People and nations race headlong to improve their womd or get them. It is going at breakneck speed now.

Only the Prince of peace can stop all war. Man's pretenses at keeping war or nukes in check are laughable and phoney.

It is not evolution of man that will end wars, nor is that what caused them.
 
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Golden Yak

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Animals do kill animals. They fight for territory and etc. Bears will kill other bears.

And humans will kill other humans. For territory and etc. All manner of etc.

I do note that the 'war' you mentioned was in a park.

A nature park. 20 square miles of wilderness set aside for preservation. Not like there was a fence around the place. And what does that have to do with anything?

It also was between a relative few chimps.

That's because there weren't a lot of them. Is there required quota for fighting a war? Did it not count as war thousands of years ago when a couple of smallish tribes fought each other with spears and flints and so forth? Why not?

I would be surprised if chimps would kill all life on earth and all chimps if they could just push a button.

You asked for examples of other animals warring amongst themselves. You've been given them. In return, you've given any number of excuses and rationalizations why 'that doesn't count!'

Clearly, you never expected any animals fighting large-scale conflicts with each other, and now that you've been shown some you're back-peddaling into furious denial. Seems to be SOP with theists when their shown facts that disprove their misconceptions.

Animals fight. It's exactly what you'd expect if evolution is true. And humans are animals. We're also smart animals, and creative, so we come up with very creative ways to fight. Oh yes.
 
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dad

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Do you understand absolute numbers vs proportional statistics?
I understand you have no clue what the population was pre flood or shortly post flood. So, if you want to talk rece3nt history then cite a few examples...such as...the Napoleonic wars killed so many....etc.



The absolute number of individuals dying in modern conflict is higher than in pre-modern conflicts, due to the massively larger population and industrialised nature of such conflicts.

There you go, how would you know the population pre flood was not massive? Can you prove that the same percentage of men died in wars say, in Alexander's day?
Although, since 1945 conflicts have been getting smaller and smaller and the knock-on effects (indirect casualties) are generally proportionally less than for pre-modern conflicts.
More and more civilians are being killed it seems to me.



However, proportional to population, rates of violence and rates of war have decreased.

In paleolithic civilisations, rates of violent death are estimated at 1,000 to 20,000 per 100,000 people, based on examination of available human remains.


The problem is that remains are a feature of this present nature. For all we know men returned to dust real fast in the far past. That would mean your stats are way off.
Most pre-bronze age civilisations were engaged in continual, low-level warfare against their neighbours in competition for resources.
So what? That killed what percent of the people?

In ancient Roman - a particularly safe ancient civilisation - somewhere between 140 and 200 individuals per 100,000 of population were victims of homicide or died in war.

If we look at Syria, I would guess that we have stats that beat that. Hiroshima too.

Globally in 2012, 6.2 people per 100,000 were victims of homicide or died in war. In the US, it was 4.7 per 100,000.
No wonder...they use drone terror and bomb people from planes.

So, the rate of murder now is somewhere around a 20th of what it was 2000 years ago and about a 1/160th of what it was 10,000+ years ago.

The rate of murder of babies alone is something like over 40 million per year, or some 400 million per decade according to a site I looked at a while ago. Your stats are strung up by the toe nails.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Then there is abortion, where millions of babies are killed yearly. I wonder if animals commit suicide like that? Anyhow, survival of the fittest doesn't seem to fit with the state of man.

Uh, since when is abortion a form of suicide?

Also, tons of animals will kill their own offspring and older members of their species. It is extremely common amongst non social animals, such as alligators; if the babies stick around for too long, mama will eat them.

It is less common in social species such as humans, but it happens. Chimps have been seen in sorts of battles with other groups of their own species over territory, like their own little war. Penguins have been seen pushing one of their own into water to see if it is safe; if it isn't, that penguin is eaten by a predator. Often the queen of a beehive killed the previous queen in a violent take over. Nature is brutal.
 
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AV1611VET

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It is less common in social species such as humans, but it happens.
Right -- until someplace gets columbined.

Then scientists stand around wondering what made them do that.

Evolution suddenly gets put on the back burner, doesn't it?

Didn't Klebold wear a shirt that said: NATURAL SELECTION?
 
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stevevw

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Considering that technology reached a stage where mass killing became a lot easier, it still doesn't say much.

Imagine the crusaders having access to WMD, explosives, machine guns, etc.
Don't you think they'ld be killing more people instead of with sticks and stones?
You obviously didn't understand what I was saying before. If people in those times had that level of tech they wouldn't have the same sort of thinking. Just having that level of tech which can kill so many also has a greater responsible thinking because they realize how dangerous they are. Your trying to link their lack of awareness for that because they only had sticks and stones with a much greater power for which also comes a greater awareness of that power.

The only reason we have the WMD is because we have gone through all the phases of having the sticks and the smaller weapons. So we have slowly built up to those big weapons. But with that slow progress we have also developed our knowledge of what they can do and are very careful. So we dont use them indiscriminately. But your trying to give the people 100s of years ago this great advancement before their time. The two would never be seen together so its an unreal comparison.If you give them the weapons then you also have to give them the type of awareness that is earnt with those weapons which is one of consideration and caution.

Besides the crusades were not out of control anyway. They were still measured and they were believing that what they were doing was right. They would not have used WMD just like they dont today when the US is fighting Terror. You need to remember that the majority of people back then were believers and the majority felt that the crusades were good. Using WMD back then without any measured control would have blown everyone up including themselves. Anyone who would have access to such power would have thought very carefully about using them. I think you are trying to draw a long bow here.

Every war is started by someone and fought for some reason.
Of course it takes two. But saying that war is good because we have to fight them to stick up for ourselves doesn't justify them. It seems you are trying to make excuses for war.

Hmmm. People weren't "less intelligent" back then. They just didn't have that level of knowledge about natural phenomena.
Having that knowledge wouldn't change anything about their ideological beliefs. We have enough examples today in the middle east where 21st century science doesn't stop one from being a fundamentalist religious barbarian.
Ok call it knowledge. If the people had developed WMD then they would have also accumulated years of knowledge about how dangerous WMDs are as well. You can have a WMD unless you first develop the smaller weapons and get to understand their impact and what they can do. Then its a progression of time, experience and knowledge that is built before you can have these powerful weapons. So the type of knowledge and thinking that goes with any WMD is also one of knowledge about how dangerous they are and their capabilities. That is why we are careful not to use them unless they are in the hands of mad men. Then we will act to stop them like in Iraqi.

So the level of knowledge back then would not go with that level of knowledge. Your trying to inject 21st century tech into 15th century thought and knowledge and the two dont go together. There is good reason why they dont because they were not ready for that type of stuff. But like I said the crusades were controlled. They were more or less the UN of that time. Everyone who was on the side of good supported the crusades. They were stopping what they seen as invaders taking Jerusalem from the occupying people there. A bit like the US and the coalition of the willing were stopping Iraqi from taking Kuwait and bombing Jerusalem.

First and foremost, we have the assurance of mutual destruction...

But that's not the point.
The point is that today's society is a lot better then anything that preceeded it.
The further you go back in time, the less solidarity and compassion you will find and the more barbarism and intolerance you will find.
No that is how you view it from your 21st century morality. Back then they believed it was good and right. You cant put yourself in their shoes. If they didn't have the knowledge to understand why something was wrong and they believed it was OK then how is that bad. You only make it bad with the benefit of centuries of wisdom and knowledge. Its also a different time then So the context is completely different. What may have been wrong in your eyes now may have been a threat and something that needed to be dealt with back then. Hindsight is always 20/20 vision.

You completely missed my point it seems.
No I think you are being unreal. Your trying to inject 21st century thinking, tech, knowledge and everything else into a time that would never have had that sort of thing. You cant use one aspect of today and then try to match it with a time that was completely different in every context. It would be the same as trying to bring people from that time into today. They would understand things and would never have been in a position to be in control of those sort of things. The two just dont go together and never will no matter what sort of imaginary scenario you are trying to create.

They had to go out into a battle field and fight face to face. So they had to get up close and personal. They had to use more force and put their bodies on the line so they had to be more brutal in their thinking and actions to kill someone. But that was only because that is the way it was back then. Today we can push a button from a distance. But we also have a lot of protocols to go through before we can get to that point. If they had the same power they would also have to go through the same protocols.
 
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dad

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Uh, since when is abortion a form of suicide?
As a 'species' when hundreds of millions of lives are taken, that is closer to suicide than self preservation.
Also, tons of animals will kill their own offspring and older members of their species.
Beasts that they are, yes. You know why? The sin of man! That is why they kill too! When the kingdom of God comes, that will no longer be part of nature. It is ONLY here because man brought it by sin. In fact, the very physics we know now may be the way it currently is because of the same reason.

In the imaginary untold eons since man supposedly existed, why is it that man has not evolved away from war?
It is extremely common amongst non social animals, such as alligators; if the babies stick around for too long, mama will eat them.

I doubt they eat 42 million per year.

It is less common in social species such as humans, but it happens. Chimps have been seen in sorts of battles with other groups of their own species over territory, like their own little war.

More of a feud, than a worldwide war, like man gets into.


Penguins have been seen pushing one of their own into water to see if it is safe; if it isn't, that penguin is eaten by a predator. Often the queen of a beehive killed the previous queen in a violent take over. Nature is brutal.

Knowing that sin is the cause of all that for animals and man, why not repent and save the planet?
 
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stevevw

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Also, tons of animals will kill their own offspring and older members of their species. It is extremely common amongst non social animals, such as alligators; if the babies stick around for too long, mama will eat them.
Animals have different reasons for killing their babies and I am not sure we can start attributing the same reasons as humans sometimes do. We have a greater intelligence so with that comes a greater responsibility. We are more aware of our actions and the wider consequences of them. We dont fully understand animals and why they do things. They maybe killing their young for a instinctual thing that they only know like the young are weak and wont survive.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Animals have different reasons for killing their babies and I am not sure we can start attributing the same reasons as humans sometimes do. We have a greater intelligence so with that comes a greater responsibility. We are more aware of our actions and the wider consequences of them. We dont fully understand animals and why they do things. They maybe killing their young for a instinctual thing that they only know like the young are weak and wont survive.

Just as a comment, some alligators actually grow a taste for the flesh of their own kind, and will target other alligators over other prey.

I will also point out that if we weren't instinctually a social species, we could be just as intelligent and still kill people without much of a care. It isn't our intelligence that keeps us from having that kind of behavior.
 
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PsychoSarah

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As a 'species' when hundreds of millions of lives are taken, that is closer to suicide than self preservation.

Beasts that they are, yes. You know why? The sin of man! That is why they kill too! When the kingdom of God comes, that will no longer be part of nature. It is ONLY here because man brought it by sin. In fact, the very physics we know now may be the way it currently is because of the same reason.

In the imaginary untold eons since man supposedly existed, why is it that man has not evolved away from war?


I doubt they eat 42 million per year.



More of a feud, than a worldwide war, like man gets into.




Knowing that sin is the cause of all that for animals and man, why not repent and save the planet?

Suicide is specifically killing oneself; if you are directly killing someone else, it isn't suicide. Also, 42 million doesn't even make a mark on our population size; our population is still growing.

So, not only did god have to punish every human for the "crimes" of 2 people, but also every species unrelated to the incident? And you don't have a problem with that?

-_- humanity has not existed for eons, in fact, we are a rather young species. It has been less than 1000 years since that kind of violent behavior has truly become a disadvantage, and the selection pressure for ending that trait is very weak. Plus, evolution cannot impact nongenetic behaviors, this is an issue of nurture more than nature.

As much as these things eat each other, they definitely put dents in their own population from it.

Chimps would definitely go to war as badly as we do if they were capable of it. Why wouldn't they?

Sir, you yourself do not believe that repentance is going to save the living; only the dead. The living end in destruction per the bible.
 
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AV1611VET

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Just as a comment, some alligators actually grow a taste for the flesh of their own kind,
So did Jeffrey Dahmer.

Does that surprise you?

If so ... why?
 
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PsychoSarah

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So did Jeffrey Dahmer.

Does that surprise you?

If so ... why?

Sir, the majority of alligators will eat others of their species. Can you say the same of humans? Heck, such a thing is so uncommon in our species that you remember the full name of a person that fits that.

Violence is becoming less common overall in our species, the news just makes our attention drawn to it. And only exceptional and rare events draw our attention; a car crash on the news certainly won't deter many from driving, but a plane goes down and that rare event can make people abandon that mode of transport in favor of the more dangerous cars.
 
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