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So according to that logic why do you believe God is good? Sin and death consumes this world, even if evolution is false.
I agree that God is not the author of sin and also believe in evolution. I was just wondering because you said earlier that "If evolution is true, then I would wager almost certainly that (orthodox, anyway) Christianity is false. There is no compatibility between a world of death and sin and a good, loving Creator." Obviously there is compatibility between a world of death and sin and a loving, good Creator even if evolution is true.I have many reasons for believing as I do.
What are your reasons?
Mine do not lie in simply following a religion because I was taught to.
Sin and death do tarnish our world, correct. But God is not the author of sin (contrary to certain Christian sects which teach such things). Neither is God the author of death. Hebrews tells us that the devil is the one who held the power of death. He is also called the god of this world or age.
I agree that God is not the author of sin and also believe in evolution. I was just wondering because you said earlier that "If evolution is true, then I would wager almost certainly that (orthodox, anyway) Christianity is false. There is no compatibility between a world of death and sin and a good, loving Creator." Obviously there is compatibility between a world of death and sin and a loving, good Creator even if evolution is true.
notedstrangeperson said:the devil has the upper hand over God?
er72 said:How does he have the "upper hand"?
er72 said:You assert that God made the world flawed and imperfect. Such is not the handiwork of a good, loving, PERFECT God. Such is the work of a blind, incompetent, uncaring, cruel God who merely uses natural processes to do everything. Even Richard Dawkins can recognize that the savagery of nature and its inherent cruelty would call a 'loving God' into question.
Actually I don't think I have asserted God made the world flawed and imperfect, and if I did I don't remember, so could you maybe point that out? While you brought it up though, why do you assume that the world is created or can be created perfect? Only God is perfect, and what He creates is not God and thus not perfect. So either way you put it the world is flawed and imperfect, but is that really God's fault? No, it is mans.How so?
You assert that God made the world flawed and imperfect. Such is not the handiwork of a good, loving, PERFECT God. Such is the work of a blind, incompetent, uncaring, cruel God who merely uses natural processes to do everything. Even Richard Dawkins can recognize that the savagery of nature and its inherent cruelty would call a 'loving God' into question.
God did not want death and desctruction, but the devil did. Death and destruction is everywhere. Sooo ... the devil got what he wanted?
Actually I don't think I have asserted God made the world flawed and imperfect, and if I did I don't remember, so could you maybe point that out? While you brought it up though, why do you assume that the world is created or can be created perfect? Only God is perfect, and what He creates is not God and thus not perfect. So either way you put it the world is flawed and imperfect, but is that really God's fault? No, it is mans.
Ignoring the fact that we do know of mechanisms that increase complexity, what makes macroevolution any more atheistic than microevolution?
er72 said:I would say the devil got what he wanted, yes.
People die everyday and burn in hell, which is very much his plan, so he's doing pretty well at deceiving the world I'd say.
Devil is greater than God? Doesn't it seem rather sad that a Christian should portray God as so powerless and / or indifferent? You're also overlooking the many good things which go on in the world.
Not the same perfection found in God, as there is no sin or iniquity found in Him. Satan was not perfect as God was, or was do you think so? Again only God is perfect and no other other can compare to God's perfection and thus no other thing is truly perfect. If you want to ignore that then that is up to you, it would just be denying the perfection of God.Well, that's false.
Ezekiel 28 tells us satan was perfect until he sinned. So God can and does create perfection.
I believe God is good and perfect and therefore, anything He does is the same. The expression goes, "God don't make junk."
That said, He made the world perfect, along with humanity and everything else. It all declares His glory and perfection. Until man sinned, that is.
BTW, if man evolved to be a sinner, by God's design, why is man to blame and not God?
Not the same perfection found in God, as there is no sin or iniquity found in Him. Satan was not perfect as God was, or was do you think so? Again only God is perfect and no other other can compare to God's perfection and thus no other thing is truly perfect. If you want to ignore that then that is up to you, it would just be denying the perfection of God.
So neither was humanity perfect as they sinned and had the desire to sin. We we inherently good. The world and other creation was deemed "good," not "perfect." We actually didn't 'evolve' to be sinners. We were meant to be in everlasting fellowship with God, but the first couple choose death instead. That is his fault, not God's.
God did create the world as perfect originally...What other connotation can we have of a perfect Creator calling His creation "very good?"How so?
You assert that God made the world flawed and imperfect. Such is not the handiwork of a good, loving, PERFECT God. Such is the work of a blind, incompetent, uncaring, cruel God who merely uses natural processes to do everything. Even Richard Dawkins can recognize that the savagery of nature and its inherent cruelty would call a 'loving God' into question.
I would go even farther and say that God works above the laws of nature. Not necessarily independent of them, but in ways that are above them. The plagues on Egypt would be a prime example in my mind of God taking natural processes (populations of frogs, flies, diseases, etc) and tweaking them at that instance to suit His purposes....God made the natural laws, but as I said earlier they work indepenantly of him. He made the process but the process is blind. The 'savagery of nature' is not a good example either. Animals do what they do because it works, it's wrong to think of them as bad or cruel just because humans find it offensive.
The point is iniquity was in Lucifer at some point. At no point is iniquity found in God.There was no sin or iniquity in Lucifer until he fell either. Read Ezekiel 28:15.
Of course there isn't. I am saying that Lucifer obviously wasn't perfect and that God is solely perfect. Lucifer is not perfect we were not perfect and nor was the world perfect. Only God was perfect and always will be. God doesn't succumb to sin and that's what it means to be perfect, since giving into sin is short of perfect, or is it not?There aren't different degrees of "perfect". Either something is perfect or it's not. Anything short of 'perfect' is therefore, imperfect. God is not "more perfect" than everything else. He is perfect. As are all His works - including Creation. A flawed, imperfect creation could not have come from a perfect God.
Because it was a death that was different from all the rest of the animals and previous life forms as they did not contain souls that first was infused with.How did they choose death when everything died long before them anyway?
Fencerguy said:I would go even farther and say that God works above the laws of nature. Not necessarily independent of them, but in ways that are above them. The plagues on Egypt would be a prime example in my mind of God taking natural processes (populations of frogs, flies, diseases, etc) and tweaking them at that instance to suit His purposes....
And also along with your point about not calling animals savage or cruel, I would say that since humans are the only species that has been set apart by being created in God's Image, we should not use our sense of morality or ethics to judge the ways that organisms who are not created in God's image utilize to ensure survival....
er72 said:There aren't different degrees of "perfect". Either something is perfect or it's not. Anything short of 'perfect' is therefore, imperfect. God is not "more perfect" than everything else. He is perfect. As are all His works - including Creation. A flawed, imperfect creation could not have come from a perfect God.
The point is iniquity was in Lucifer at some point. At no point is iniquity found in God.
(Contrary to what a lot of religious people teach - God breaking His own laws. As if.)
The point is that Lucifer was perfect until he fell. So God does create perfection. It's all He does.
Of course there isn't. I am saying that Lucifer obviously wasn't perfect and that God is solely perfect. Lucifer is not perfect we were not perfect and nor was the world perfect. Only God was perfect and always will be. God doesn't succumb to sin and that's what it means to be perfect, since giving into sin is short of perfect, or is it not?
The Bible would disagree with you then. It says clearly that he was created perfect UNTIL iniquity was found in him. Ezekiel 28:15. Look it up.
Man was perfect until he sinned too. Our goal is perfection and to become like God. Jesus even taught this.
Because it was a death that was different from all the rest of the animals and previous life forms as they did not contain souls that first was infused with.
If we're getting technical then if something was 'perfect' then it would be capable of becoming 'imperfect' in the first place. It would be free from flaws and the ability to become flawed. God saw the world as 'very good' (which it is), not 'unable to go wrong'.
er72 said:That's false. That is the atheist's argument: "God should've created a world WITH free will and man who would never break His laws." That is impossibly ridiculous and ridiculously impossible! The very concept of a soul and cognition must allow for the ability to choose NOT to follow God. That is hardly an imperfection.
I believe it was both spiritual and physical.So it was only spiritual? I don't buy that.
Then maybe Jesus was only "spiritually" resurrected, to defeat "spiritual" death?
This metaphor business can lead to many ditches, you know.
But 'every man is right in his own eyes'.
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