If man can resist God's grace...

[Skala]

...can he resist other stuff from God, too?

The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV)

This verse teaches that God sends delusion so that people believe lies in order to be condemned.

Arminians say that man can resist the saving efforts of God (ie, they resist his grace). God gave man Libertarian Free Will, after all.

But if they can resist his grace, can they also resist the delusion He sends?

I see no way for an Arminian/synergist to remain consistent, and yet answer "no".

#humanfreewillistoostrong

 

[Job8]

...can he resist other stuff from God, too?

Why are you comparing apples and oranges?

God's grace is offered freely to all, and can certainly be resisted (Acts 7:51; Heb 3:7,8).

But when God sends "strong delusion" on those who have already resisted the grace of God, there is no possibility of escaping that. They had their opportunities to repent, but since they would not, they have been thorougly blinded and shall be deceived by Satan. That is true even now for those who resist the Gospel. There comes a time when they cannot be saved, because firstly they would not repent.

 

[EmSw]

<STAFF EDIT>

The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV)

This verse teaches that God sends delusion so that people believe lies in order to be condemned.

Nice Skala, you took a part of that verse and made it say what it doesn't say. God sends delusion to those, read carefully, BECAUSE they refuse to love the truth to be saved, and because they do not believe the truth and had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Arminians say that man can resist the saving efforts of God (ie, they resist his grace). God gave man Libertarian Free Will, after all.

But if they can resist his grace, can they also resist the delusion He sends?

Yes you can resist the delusion, by believing the truth and resisting unrighteousness.

I see no way for an Arminian/synergist to remain consistent, and yet answer "no".

I said they can resist the delusion (see above).

 

[Skala]

Why are you comparing apples and oranges?

I'm not. both things are what God wants/tries to do to people. Yet human free will is so strong that God can't have his way with humans (allegedly)

Are you saying that God gives you a chance, nd once you blow it, he takes away your free will so that he can send you delusion? If God can override your free will to send you delusion for the sake of condemnation, why didn't he just do that in the first place for the sake of salvation?

But when God sends "strong delusion" on those who have already resisted the grace of God, there is no possibility of escaping that. They had their opportunities to repent, but since they would not, they have been thorougly blinded and shall be deceived by Satan. That is true even now for those who resist the Gospel. There comes a time when they cannot be saved, because firstly they would not repent.

I don't disagree with you here, but you miss the point. Why can't the human resist God's delusion-sending, if their will is so strong? As I asked above, do you lose your free will or something?

 

[Skala]

.

Nice Skala, you took a part of that verse and made it say what it doesn't say. God sends delusion to those, read carefully, BECAUSE they refuse to love the truth to be saved, and because they do not believe the truth and had pleasure in unrighteousness.

<STAFF EDIT>

Actually, I didn't make the verse say anything. It DOES say that God sends delusion for the purpose of condemnation. I never denied that He does that for a reason. So I'm not sure where you think I twisted it or made it something it didn't say. Hence the picture.

 

[Job8]

I'm not. both things are what God wants/tries to do to people. Yet human free will is so strong that God can't have his way with humans (allegedly)

Skala,
Your conception of how God deals with men is not exactly according to what is revealed in Scripture. There is such a thing as THE LAW OF SOWING AND REAPING, which was presented by God right after He created Adam (Gen 2:16,17). Therefore God compels no man to obey Him. Rather He presents the consequences of disobedience, which are dire.
So the issue is NOT whether human free will is so strong, or whether God wishes to have His way with humans at all. Rather it is "Choose you this day whom ye will serve..." and bear the consequences.

Are you saying that God gives you a chance, and once you blow it, he takes away your free will so that he can send you delusion? If God can override your free will to send you delusion for the sake of condemnation, why didn't he just do that in the first place for the sake of salvation?

God does NOT give men merely "A CHANCE". Because He is infinitely gracious and merciful, He gives all human beings MULTIPLE OPPORTUNITIES to repent. Once those opportunities are exhausted, there is no remedy (e.g. Pharaoh and the ten plagues of Egypt). That is when God sends "strong delusion" so that they believe the lie because they hated the truth. That is what we find in 2 Thess 2. God hardens their hearts, and blinds their minds. But none can accuse Him of not giving anyone sufficient opportunities to repent.

I don't disagree with you here, but you miss the point. Why can't the human resist God's delusion-sending, if their will is so strong? As I asked above, do you lose your free will or something?

In view of the above, this question does not need any answer. The Law of Sowing and Reaping is a Universal Law, just like the Law of Gravity. Throughout Scripture, we find illustrations of this Law to remind us that bad choices lead to terrible consequences. This Law operates precisely because human beings have free will.

 

[adhidarmawijaya]

...can he resist other stuff from God, too?

The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV)

This verse teaches that God sends delusion so that people believe lies in order to be condemned.

Arminians say that man can resist the saving efforts of God (ie, they resist his grace). God gave man Libertarian Free Will, after all.

But if they can resist his grace, can they also resist the delusion He sends?

I see no way for an Arminian/synergist to remain consistent, and yet answer "no".

#humanfreewillistoostrong

The nature of all men are spiritually dead before God (Gen2:17), All men are corpses in the eyes of God , so they only have negative will ( Rom3:10-12) ---> their nature always resist to God, until they are resurrected/saved (spiritually) now they start to hear/to obey.
It is His power of Grace which destroys those barrier step by step chronologically .


Isa55:11 So also will be the word that I speak-- it will not fail to do what I plan for it; it will do everything I send it to do

 

[nobdysfool]

Skala,
Your conception of how God deals with men is not exactly according to what is revealed in Scripture. There is such a thing as THE LAW OF SOWING AND REAPING, which was presented by God right after He created Adam (Gen 2:16,17). Therefore God compels no man to obey Him. Rather He presents the consequences of disobedience, which are dire.
So the issue is NOT whether human free will is so strong, or whether God wishes to have His way with humans at all. Rather it is "Choose you this day whom ye will serve..." and bear the consequences.

Thereby ensuring that man's so-called "free will" is at the pinnacle of the issue, man's will deciding his fate.

God does NOT give men merely "A CHANCE". Because He is infinitely gracious and merciful, He gives all human beings MULTIPLE OPPORTUNITIES to repent. Once those opportunities are exhausted, there is no remedy (e.g. Pharaoh and the ten plagues of Egypt). That is when God sends "strong delusion" so that they believe the lie because they hated the truth. That is what we find in 2 Thess 2. God hardens their hearts, and blinds their minds. But none can accuse Him of not giving anyone sufficient opportunities to repent.

In view of the above, this question does not need any answer. The Law of Sowing and Reaping is a Universal Law, just like the Law of Gravity. Throughout Scripture, we find illustrations of this Law to remind us that bad choices lead to terrible consequences. This Law operates precisely because human beings have free will.

It's sad that free will is seen as the answer to all arguments, <STAFF EDIT> the ultimate answer, which enthrones man as "the captain of his soul, and the master of his fate". How far afield from Scripture, rightly divided...

 

[Job8]

It's sad that free will is seen as the answer to all arguments, ..

Whether some like it or not, the truth according to Scripture is that God gave men and angels a free will. Had He chosen to create a robotic universe, there would have been no need for any redemptive work of God, no need for the Cross, no need for the Lake of Fire, no need for the Gospel.

 

[nobdysfool]

Whether some like it or not, the truth according to Scripture is that God gave men and angels a free will. Had He chosen to create a robotic universe, there would have been no need for any redemptive work of God, no need for the Cross, no need for the Lake of Fire, no need for the Gospel.

It is also true, according to Scripture, that man's will is corrupted. Thus, his will isn't as free as some want it to be. A slave to sin, bound in sin, and unable to save himself by himself, cannot be said to be free.

The robot accusation is as old as the hills and twice as dusty, and is absolutely false, as no Calvinist believes or teaches such a thing, knowingly or unknowingly. <STAFF EDIT>

 

[Job8]

The robot accusation is as old as the hills and twice as dusty, and is absolutely false, as no Calvinist believes or teaches such a thing, knowingly or unknowingly. it's a straw man.

Well, whether it is old as the hills or not, we have only two options: (1) men and angels were created with free wills, and continue to exist with free wills or (2) they were not created with free wills and therefore do precisely as commanded (a robotic universe).

If we go with the latter option, then sin could never have entered into the universe. If we accept the first option as true, and according to what is revealed in Scripture, then man can and does resist God's grace daily.

The best illustration of this fact is the history of the Jews and Israel (Acts 7:51-53).
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Did God ALWAYS desire the salvation of Israel? Does God still desire Israel's salvation? Then what does this indictment tell us about free will? If grace were irresistable (as some mistakenly claim) then every Jew would be a regenerated Jew and Israel would have been redeemed at the first coming of Christ.

 

[nobdysfool]

Bump.

Because it is a fundamentally important question. This ain't opposing.

Of course it is! A false appeal to history, as though that were the final authority, when it is not. Scripture is the final authority, and understanding of Scripture has progressed over the centuries. Or do you deny that?

 

[rnmomof7]

The nature of all men are spiritually dead before God (Gen2:17), All men are corpses in the eyes of God , so they only have negative will ( Rom3:10-12) ---> their nature always resist to God, until they are resurrected/saved (spiritually) now they start to hear/to obey.
It is His power of Grace which destroys those barrier step by step chronologically .


Isa55:11 So also will be the word that I speak-- it will not fail to do what I plan for it; it will do everything I send it to do

The problem is that men do not understand they are dead spiritually, they think they are just spiritually sick.. and can choose what medicine will make well or choose to remain sick .

The idea that Gods grace showers over us to make us alive goes against the idea that man is really god in his salvation ...

 

[rnmomof7]

Thereby ensuring that man's so-called "free will" is at the pinnacle of the issue, man's will deciding his fate.




It's sad that free will is seen as the answer to all arguments, the hammer with which to bash Calvinism, the ultimate answer, which enthrones man as "the captain of his soul, and the master of his fate". How far afield from Scripture, rightly divided...

From the beginning.... "Ye shall be as gods" ..Satan's most effective lies

 

[faroukfarouk]

The problem is that men do not understand they are dead spiritually, they think they are just spiritually sick.. and can choose what medicine will make well or choose to remain sick .

The idea that Gods grace showers over us to make us alive goes against the idea that man is really god in his salvation ...

Ephesians 2 makes it clear that sinners are 'dead in trespasses and sins', and this is why by God's grace we need to be 'made alive'.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

People resist God's grace all the time.

Strong atheists are an example of this. Some go so far as to write books as to how they've achieved this resistance so as to lead others to follow.

John chapter 10 helps explain how this happens.
Of course it isn't just atheists but anyone who does not feel the call of Christ. All others not of Christ are examples of those who resist. But is it resistance? Or is it that they do not hear the call of God?

...can he resist other stuff from God, too?

The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV)

This verse teaches that God sends delusion so that people believe lies in order to be condemned.

Arminians say that man can resist the saving efforts of God (ie, they resist his grace). God gave man Libertarian Free Will, after all.

But if they can resist his grace, can they also resist the delusion He sends?

I see no way for an Arminian/synergist to remain consistent, and yet answer "no".

#humanfreewillistoostrong

 

[EmSw]

The problem is that men do not understand they are dead spiritually, they think they are just spiritually sick.. and can choose what medicine will make well or choose to remain sick .

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

Jesus came to call sinners, or those who are sick. If one does not think they are spiritually sick, then they are not called by Jesus.

John 5:25
Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Hmmm, the dead WILL HEAR the voice of God and live. This is not what some teach on here. Will someone tell me how the dead can hear the voice of God?

 

[EmSw]

Ephesians 2 makes it clear that sinners are 'dead in trespasses and sins', and this is why by God's grace we need to be 'made alive'.

John 5:25
Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Why not listen for the voice of God if you are dead? Jesus said the dead who hear His voice will live.

 

[nobdysfool]

John 5:25
Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Why not listen for the voice of God if you are dead? Jesus said the dead who hear His voice will live.

So no consideration that God can (and will) make them hear? Did Lazarus hear Jesus call to him to come out of the tomb? Obviously yes, he did. How did he hear Jesus if he was dead? Obviously, Jesus was able to make Lazarus hear His voice, even if Lazarus was dead. Same principle applies here, with the same result.

 

[rnmomof7]

The point being missed is that Calvinists, especially Supra Lapsarian Calvinists - particularly John Calvin - say 'no this is not correct, God predestined ALL things'.

Satan can do nothing outside the will of God..

.[/QUOTE]