If lying is a sin, then how come....?

[Outspoken]

What I want to know is why God put it there in the first place...

Not quite a pefect scenario. Put people who are capable of disobeying in a garden with a tree with fruit that looks good to eat, and tell the people not to eat it? What was the point of that? If God intended man to remain in the garden, in the midst of his "perfect" creation, surely he knew that mans natural curiousity would get the best of him, sooner or later?

great question!! Now seeing as we have no biblical information on why, we can only guess. I would say, as a guess, that it was a maturation step and when they were ready they would be able to eat of that tree.

 

[Mr. Fields]

great question!! Now seeing as we have no biblical information on why, we can only guess. I would say, as a guess, that it was a maturation step and when they were ready they would be able to eat of that tree.

I thought conservative Christians didn't guess at or add things to Scripture that aren't there?

Seriously, what leads you to believe that? I've never heard that explanation before and at first glance it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. God said man was created in his image and the idea that they needed to mature flies in the face of the idea that Gods creation was perfect until Adam and Eve disobeyed. That kind of blows out the whole concept of man being responsible for sin in the first place.

 

[Outspoken]

I thought conservative Christians didn't guess at or add things to Scripture that aren't there?

Seriously, what leads you to believe that? I've never heard that explanation before and at first glance it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. God said man was created in his image and the idea that they needed to mature flies in the face of the idea that Gods creation was perfect until Adam and Eve disobeyed. That kind of blows out the whole concept of man being responsible for sin in the first place.

Then you are in error. You have to take the truth and make it applicable to different situations: Example: the bible never mentions nuclear war, but that doesn't mean it doesn't say anything about it.

As for your idea of immaturity means inperfection, i don't see that. If you want to show how you get to this, go for it. I'll listen. As for them being responible, no it doesn't blow it out or else I would say age of accountablity would be biblical. So try again

 

[Angelajt]

What I want to know is why God put it there in the first place...

Not quite a pefect scenario. Put people who are capable of disobeying in a garden with a tree with fruit that looks good to eat, and tell the people not to eat it? What was the point of that? If God intended man to remain in the garden, in the midst of his "perfect" creation, surely he knew that mans natural curiousity would get the best of him, sooner or later?

Hey me again.

The reason for the tree I believe was based on an issue of trust. The sin was actually commited before they ate of the tree. Let me explain. When God said don't eat of that tree because of what he was telling them would happen. His whole idea was one of....will you believe me or something else. The tree of life was also in the garden and they could have eaten from that first and never died. Because God knows the end from the beginning he used this scenearo to establish his purpose and will in the end without MAKING OR FORCING) thier choice. Even in perfection when freedom is given, there will be a testing by us who have not experienced something. We have not always been and so we have limited experience. Now with the experience of sin, sin itself should not be an issue in a believers life. I am talking from expereince. Because of my expereince in sin, I choose God. I don't focus on sin because God took care of sin. I focus on God and hearing him and doing what the Holy Spirit leads me to do. I do not beat myself up if I mess up. I do not beg God for forgiveness because I believe I am forgiven.



I believe if Adam and Eve would have just asked God, can we experience evil without dying or eating from that tree? I believe God would have made a way.

 

[Mr. Fields]

Then you are in error. You have to take the truth and make it applicable to different situations: Example: the bible never mentions nuclear war, but that doesn't mean it doesn't say anything about it.

As for your idea of immaturity means inperfection, i don't see that. If you want to show how you get to this, go for it. I'll listen. As for them being responible, no it doesn't blow it out or else I would say age of accountablity would be biblical. So try again

Yeah, I know, anyone who doesn't interpret Scripture exactly the way you do is in error. I get that.

As for your example of nuclear war, it's not a valid comparison in this context. As for the statement "You have to take the truth and make it applicable to different situations", this means anyone (including yourself) can apply "truth" to anything and make it mean whatever they want. By your logic, truth is anything you perceive it to be.

While the definition of immaturity doesn't necessarily mean imperfect, it implies it. Someone who is immature is prone to make mistakes because of their inexperience or lack of teaching. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they wouldn't be immature or prone to make mistakes.

 

[Outspoken]

Yeah, I know, anyone who doesn't interpret Scripture exactly the way you do is in error. I get that.

As for your example of nuclear war, it's not a valid comparison in this context. As for the statement "You have to take the truth and make it applicable to different situations", this means anyone (including yourself) can apply "truth" to anything and make it mean whatever they want. By your logic, truth is anything you perceive it to be.

While the definition of immaturity doesn't necessarily mean imperfect, it implies it. Someone who is immature is prone to make mistakes because of their inexperience or lack of teaching. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they wouldn't be immature or prone to make mistakes.

"As for your example of nuclear war, it's not a valid comparison in this context."

*chuckles* sure it is. Its an application of a truth to a different set of circumstances not talking about specificlly in the bible. As you have shown your bias in your first sentence, do you have a good reason why I should continue this dialouge since no matter what I say to you it doesn't matter because you have your mind made up?

"While the definition of immaturity doesn't necessarily mean imperfect, it implies it"

I don't see that implication at all. No, inexperienced doesn't equal immaturity.

 

[Mr. Fields]

"
"While the definition of immaturity doesn't necessarily mean imperfect, it implies it"

I don't see that implication at all. No, inexperienced doesn't equal immaturity.

(To use your own words) Then you are in error. Something that needs maturing is obviously incomplete, therefore it is imperfect.

*chuckles* sure it is. Its an application of a truth to a different set of circumstances not talking about specificlly in the bible. As you have shown your bias in your first sentence, do you have a good reason why I should continue this dialouge since no matter what I say to you it doesn't matter because you have your mind made up?

Actually, it isn't. You are comparing something we know to exist because it (or the possibility of it) exists today, to an unmentioned detail of a past event that you are assuming to be true, but cannot be proven one way or another because it neither exists today nor was documented. You are comparing two completely different things.

 

[Outspoken]

(To use your own words) Then you are in error. Something that needs maturing is obviously incomplete, therefore it is imperfect.

Actually, it isn't. You are comparing something we know to exist because it (or the possibility of it) exists today, to an unmentioned detail of a past event that you are assuming to be true, but cannot be proven one way or another because it neither exists today nor was documented. You are comparing two completely different things.

Noo, you have not proven being incomplete means imperfect. Humans were created incomplete and perfectly. We need God (incomplete) but Adam and eve were created sinless. So please prove your assertion as there is evidience against it.

 

[Mr. Fields]

Noo, you have not proven being incomplete means imperfect. Humans were created incomplete and perfectly. We need God (incomplete) but Adam and eve were created sinless. So please prove your assertion as there is evidience against it.

You are grasping at straws! If I set about to design a car (for the sake of argument let's say it's the or a perfect car), but haven't finished designing the motor or the transmission, is it a perfect car? It sure wouldn't be driveable. I would have to complete the development of the car before I could declare it to be the perfect car.

By your logic, if you can assume that Adam and Eve were incomplete, I can assume that they were imperfect.

I see nothing, again nothing in Scripture to even suggest that Adam and Eve needed to mature. You are totally and completely reading something that simply isn't there. The burden of proof is on you.

 

[Outspoken]

You are grasping at straws! If I set about to design a car (for the sake of argument let's say it's the or a perfect car), but haven't finished designing the motor or the transmission, is it a perfect car? It sure wouldn't be driveable. I would have to complete the development of the car before I could declare it to be the perfect car.

By your logic, if you can assume that Adam and Eve were incomplete, I can assume that they were imperfect.

I see nothing, again nothing in Scripture to even suggest that Adam and Eve needed to mature. You are totally and completely reading something that simply isn't there. The burden of proof is on you.

Your analogy is not correct since a car is not designed specifically NOT to have a transmittion. We were designed SPECIFICALLY to be incomplete without God. Thus your analogy is incorrect. Sorry, incomplete nor immature does not mean imperfect. Care to try again?

 

[Mr. Fields]

Your analogy is not correct since a car is not designed specifically NOT to have a transmittion. We were designed SPECIFICALLY to be incomplete without God. Thus your analogy is incorrect. Sorry, incomplete nor immature does not mean imperfect. Care to try again?

Your argument is that Adam and Eve needed to mature before they would be allowed to eat the fruit. The idea that Adam and Eve were incomplete apart from God doesn't support this argument, so the burden of proof is still on you.

 

[Outspoken]

Your argument is that Adam and Eve needed to mature before they would be allowed to eat the fruit. The idea that Adam and Eve were incomplete apart from God doesn't support this argument, so the burden of proof is still on you.

LOL man you sure aren't reading my posts. Go back and read what I said when I first introduced this idea.

 

[Mr. Fields]

LOL man you sure aren't reading my posts. Go back and read what I said when I first introduced this idea.

The only thing I see is you professing yourself to be wise, telling someone else they don't know what hermeneutics is all about when you can't even spell it correctly, and then stating to me "I would say, as a guess, that it was a maturation step and when they were ready they would be able to eat of that tree."

Then, when I suggested you were adding to Scripture something that wasn't really there, you told me I was in error.

So I can only conclude that you believe that something you admit is "only a guess" is actually truth. And that you're rude and condescending. Other than that, what is there for me to read?

 

[Outspoken]

You can make all the opinion statements you want, I have yet to see you prove your assertion, now your trying to dodge the issue. I made no assurtion, you have yet you have not proven yours. I guess you just like to dance around it and not answer questions? or do you have some proof that immature means imperfect, you do you admit you're wrong there?

 

[Outspoken]

So I can only conclude that you believe that something you admit is "only a guess" is actually truth. And that you're rude and condescending. Other than that, what is there for me to read?

*sigh* I'm sorry if my tone of being logical about something seems condesending, I'm just responding to your post. Its your perception that's incorrect. As for guessing, I never said I was correct, only that it was a guess because biblically we have no evidience, thus the question cannot be answered. You have ever make claims and never support them, I have in fact, gone so far as to DISPROVE your claim, thus rendering it invalid.

 

[Mr. Fields]

You can make all the opinion statements you want, I have yet to see you prove your assertion, now your trying to dodge the issue. I made no assurtion, you have yet you have not proven yours. I guess you just like to dance around it and not answer questions? or do you have some proof that immature means imperfect, you do you admit you're wrong there?

I'm not dodging anything.

You are the one who made the statement "Now seeing as we have no biblical information on why, we can only guess. I would say, as a guess, that it was a maturation step and when they were ready they would be able to eat of that tree."

In response to that, to point out that this was a flawed argument, I made the following statement:

"God said man was created in his image and the idea that they needed to mature flies in the face of the idea that Gods creation was perfect until Adam and Eve disobeyed. That kind of blows out the whole concept of man being responsible for sin in the first place."

The question here is not whether immature means imperfect, as it was a side issue that you expounded on to try to get away from the real issue, which is that you are basing an entire doctrine on a fabrication (assumption, guess) that you even admit is such.

 

[Outspoken]

I'm not dodging anything.

You are the one who made the statement "Now seeing as we have no biblical information on why, we can only guess. I would say, as a guess, that it was a maturation step and when they were ready they would be able to eat of that tree."

In response to that, to point out that this was a flawed argument, I made the following statement:

"God said man was created in his image and the idea that they needed to mature flies in the face of the idea that Gods creation was perfect until Adam and Eve disobeyed. That kind of blows out the whole concept of man being responsible for sin in the first place."

The question here is not whether immature means imperfect, as it was a side issue that you expounded on to try to get away from the real issue, which is that you are basing an entire doctrine on a fabrication (assumption, guess) that you even admit is such.

Yes, and I rebuffed your idea because its clear that immature does not mean imperfect (your assurtion). You have yet to prove that assurtion thus taking away your objection.

"an entire doctrine on a fabrication "

LOL, again you're not reading my posts. Please show me where I said it was docterine.

 

[Angelajt]

I'm not dodging anything.

You are the one who made the statement "Now seeing as we have no biblical information on why, we can only guess. I would say, as a guess, that it was a maturation step and when they were ready they would be able to eat of that tree."

In response to that, to point out that this was a flawed argument, I made the following statement:

"God said man was created in his image and the idea that they needed to mature flies in the face of the idea that Gods creation was perfect until Adam and Eve disobeyed. That kind of blows out the whole concept of man being responsible for sin in the first place."

The question here is not whether immature means imperfect, as it was a side issue that you expounded on to try to get away from the real issue, which is that you are basing an entire doctrine on a fabrication (assumption, guess) that you even admit is such.

Hi CB, Did you read my post. My answer of your question was based on prayer and the Holy Spirit's leading.....Not all written out in the bible....but based on what I know of the bible as a whole and God's character. I also have an inner witness. Sometimes my inner witness is stronger than any knowledge I have, but usaully later understanding will come.

I see you are very logical as I can be....so for the conflict going on let me just say that alot of christian's sometimes are more emotional about their beliefs. I am like you and questioned God's goodness at one time.....
Just keep on keeping on...I think you will find your answers

 

[Mr. Fields]

Yes, and I rebuffed your idea because its clear that immature does not mean imperfect (your assurtion). You have yet to prove that assurtion thus taking away your objection.

"an entire doctrine on a fabrication "

LOL, again you're not reading my posts. Please show me where I said it was docterine.

If it's not part of your doctrine, then why do you have the need to state it? If it's not part of your beliefs, then there was no point in your stating it in the first place.

I don't concede to your agrument, but for the time being I will no longer debate this with you, because you can't even see or admit to the fact that you are doing exactly what you condemn others of doing. You accuse liberal Christians of taking things out of context and adding things that aren't there, yet you are doing the same thing. You cannot prove anything and even admit that this is your best guess. There is no point of debating this with you any longer.

Blessings,

Tim

 

[Mr. Fields]

Hi CB, Did you read my post. My answer of your question was based on prayer and the Holy Spirit's leading.....Not all written out in the bible....but based on what I know of the bible as a whole and God's character. I also have an inner witness. Sometimes my inner witness is stronger than any knowledge I have, but usaully later understanding will come.

I see you are very logical as I can be....so for the conflict going on let me just say that alot of christian's sometimes are more emotional about their beliefs. I am like you and questioned God's goodness at one time.....
Just keep on keeping on...I think you will find your answers

I read it, and thanks. I don't doubt God's goodness, but you made some interesting points.