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mreeed

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Agenda...that's a helpful word to store and use in framing a complex or uncomfortable issue, I collect these words, but then I forget them. Appropriate is one of my go-tos, but it is somewhat vague, the word agenda has a reason attached. Nice to see you online Dayhiker, for what it's worth I edited (added to) my post before I saw you had already replied to it.

I hug a lot of people too and in the groups I see him with I assumed he did too, but you saying that made me realize it's not as much, and he has fewer close friends than I do, he gets a bit jealous when I spend time with friends, in the sense of wishing he had more closer connections or wishing I would have invited him too (not instead). He makes admirable efforts to build community and help people, but recently he has been burned by friends who accepted his generosity...actually hidden agenda was one of the issues on the other side.
 
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miss-a

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I find platonic friendships between two single people of the opposite sex to be nearly impossible. Someone always seems to want more at some point. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am saying it's nearly impossible. My advice would be to tread very carefully and prayerfully here, and be very honest with yourself and God. If it's truly not working or becomes unhealthy for one or both of you, be willing to let it go, and let God guide you in this. Also, I think it would be a good idea to get lots of prayer around this. There's a prayer wall subforum on CF.

Prayers,
a
 
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mreeed

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I find the same near-impossibility, miss-a. I think it may depend in part what the friendship actually looks like and consists of. I think some sort of mutual give and take could work as long as it is balanced, and also mutual encouragement. (Edit: And time in the Word and in groups.) But not so much spending time for the sake of it, neither of us has much time to for that anyway, plus certain of his pet topics I tend to shy away from.

I asked him yesterday about the two comments from my OP, he said the hug comment was retaliation on his part, that I have not flirted or led him on, the hugs have not aroused him, and he doesn't remember the later "if I could just hold you" comment at all, and didn't at first think it even made sense, saying never in a million years would that be enough. I don't think this negates his desire for friendship, but I don't think he has reconciled the two, or at least that he sees a sense of striving somehow for more continuing even if he does accept friendship / respect boundaries which we have yet to properly discuss.

I really appreciate that you are praying for me miss-a, since this is something I haven't shared with many people, good idea to post on the prayer wall. I hope I am able to just post the link to the thread, as I am short on time these days, has not even been time to have the full conversation that needs to happen, though we have touched on several things. He said he had a good conversation with my brother about it in which he said he explained it better than me, I don't know exactly what was said. My brother is the only person I know who I have told recently and who I trust to talk with him about it.
 
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mreeed

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Thank you dayhiker. That is one thing I appreciate about my friendship with him, that we can talk to each other about almost anything. And definitely something I appreciate about an anonymous forum like this as well. But some talk still requires much forethought and emotional effort and can still be hard to put to words at the end of it. I appreciate your thoughts as a fellow explorer of communication.

I know I am probably including more detail than maybe some care about or than is necessary to inform response, I guess I am just interested in exploring the anatomy of this (kind of) friendship as objectively as I can and what is worth and important to hold on to and what is better let go of, as well as how to go about these things. And also hoping something in it may also be helpful for others in a similar situation.
 
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dayhiker

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I find it interesting that some Christians want us to separate from others, while clearly God is trying to enter into a relationship with everyone.

The easiest way to learn something is to see someone else doing it then we can learn from them how to do it. So I think if we are to be like God
we need to learn how to be in relationships with all kinds of people. That takes a variety of communication skills to do as God created a variety
of people. This is what I'm working on by being a friend to people. People are looking for friends because so many are lonely. So I'm learning
a lot about love, communication by friending people.
 
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quietpraiyze

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I find platonic friendships between two single people of the opposite sex to be nearly impossible. Someone always seems to want more at some point. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am saying it's nearly impossible. My advice would be to tread very carefully and prayerfully here, and be very honest with yourself and God. If it's truly not working or becomes unhealthy for one or both of you, be willing to let it go, and let God guide you in this. Also, I think it would be a good idea to get lots of prayer around this. There's a prayer wall subforum on CF.

Prayers,
a

That's too bad. For me God is more than that. I'm totally opposite. I don't see not having my brothers in Christ as part of my life. That's just sad...wow.
 
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miss-a

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That's too bad. For me God is more than that. I'm totally opposite. I don't see not having my brothers in Christ as part of my life. That's just sad...wow.

I find it sad also, but I don't dwell on the sad stuff. We are only here for a short time. Then there will be no more sadness.
 
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mreeed

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I guess my thinking on the kind of conversation we need to have keeps changing and being pushed forward, yet as we have talked recently it seems maybe we have said most of what we can say for now. The concepts of boundaries and distance are important, but it has been hard to put my finger on because it wasn't so much what he would do, but the way he would be, because his feelings for me have seemed so integrated into his behavior it didn’t seem separable. One time in the past he did try briefly and our interactions felt like cardboard, like water stopped from moving. That part I was not looking forward to.

But his tone has changed recently. I know it hurts him that I don’t feel the same, usually with me one on one he wears his emotions on his sleeve, he either says what he feels in the moment, or I can tell by his tone and terseness what he doesn’t say. But the last couple times I've seen him he has made a real effort to respect me in keeping his words and actions in check, foregoing flirtatious talking, tone or double meanings he could have played on, that kind of thing. My intuition says play it safe, keep distance, usually I've almost have a running calculation in my head about how long I need to go between different kinds of contact, maybe it's my own kind of boundary so I don't need to say so much about his need for one. Like I’ve said, I have lots of practice :/ Some times it is easier to do than others, but (at most) I can only control myself, not others, not to mention even if I could, that would be much harder to get ‘right’.

But I took it on faith somehow to take a day trip (1.5 hrs away) with him to celebrate Shavuot (Pentecost) with the only people (2 of my siblings’ families, mutual friends) either of us knew who were celebrating it on the particular day that seemed biblical to us. And that went well enough that somehow I still had peace the day after for what turned into a marathon house & yard cleaning well into the wee hours to help him get ready for the photographer coming to take pictures of his house so he could still get it listed to sell on the long weekend. Talk was mainly focused on the Word, figuring out the task at hand and his appreciation for help, which was also expressed platonically and meaningfully. It was the most joy I've had in helping him in awhile, and in a way the purest somehow once we were able to figure out priorities and get the right things accomplished.

Not good to push it I know, I had thought to lie low since then but continuing in the final push before actually showing the house (my brother is part owner, so it’s helping him too), there is distance still that will need to come more in the balance of real friendship with itself and with life, but I'm thankful right now at least it doesn't seem to need to be so artificial or imposed. I am amazed and thankful for this peace and chaos reduction. Please pray that each of us would see things clearly and not just expediently; I am also a bit uneasy of what may build up below the surface. He can still never get enough time with me, but in action he’s better at not letting that drive how often we spend time (ie work together). Tentatively hugs seem ok, or at least the last couple times they seemed to fit the occasion or not one on one. May still mention hand on shoulder as an alternative. Once the house is sold he may leave the country again for awhile, and/or live further away.

He has kind of said and implied and demonstrated in some ways that he has given up particularly in relation to or reaction to certain things I have said. In particular, saying I would try but couldn’t guarantee friendship given circumstances. I tried to couch it kindly but said in response to direct question unfortunately in text since I was rushing before a trip of several days. He related it to the feeling he had when his wife told him she was leaving; he felt powerless to do anything and just let her go. It may also relate to when earlier trying to speak more concisely about riddles not really being riddles (thanks Catherine :) ) and frustration with boundaries since it had felt he was always pushing them, in so many small ways poking or seeping through them and both of us needing distance to allow others into view. (With that I was also responding to a glimmer of possibility he mentioned that God might have someone else for him, which he now denies.) The ‘giving up’ is more I think that he has not been striving the way he was in this and has more peace about the way things are. A stage of sorts in God’s refining; He has much to refine in me also I know. He said he will ask again down the road but right now he says and I see he is trying to let it alone and focus on actual friendship, acknowledging once or twice that the way he has expressed his feelings has been a hindrance in friendship. Definitely gives me more peace as well.

That said, he has spoken recently as if God is ‘on his side’, basically saying ‘just you wait’ (ie God will change your mind on this yet). And like I am the person God has for him, and if not me then will be nobody? I understand others have pursued him, but I believe I am the only one he has pursued in much length in the 20-odd years after his marriage ended; before recently he has often talked of his love (but doesn’t always necessarily realize/admit how often).

I know if God were to take all the roadblocks and caution flags I see out of the way it could be a beautiful thing, in theory I am open if He made it clear, but I try not to think about it, I cannot live my life as if He will and I have learned the hard way the problems with saying maybe. I need to stop thinking maybes too when probabilities seem so small. So my answer is no and I can’t foresee a yes.

To mention one thing - some of those things it seems He has put there to guide us to different paths in our respective understandings of His will in each others’ ministry areas, and practical understandings of God that affect how we see life and supernatural experience, living into the end times and certain extra-biblical writings. In this way it had seemed to me that he had the perfect woman for him in his life a few years ago helping each other in community, but he never saw her like that. We can respect each others’ differences as friends, but I don’t think either of us fully trust each other in that way enough to walk together despite these spiritual differences.

Please keep praying for the balance and discretion because even with this new leaf (if it lasts) too much time together or too much talk even about ‘no’ sometimes feels like I could be saying maybe simply because I am willing to spend the time or have the discussion at all. I’m trying to position my reason for helping him with helping my brother and probably not many more days on this. But delays on the renos are delaying showings so I guess we’ll see.
 
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