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If homosexuality could be prevented...

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Völuspá

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...while the fetus was still developing, would it be morally permissible for mothers to do so?

If you believe that homosexuality is a sin, do you think it's a person's right to prevent their child from 'struggling' with that sin? If it isn't a sin in your eyes, could it still be the mother's choice to decide what's best for her child?

If sexual orientation is biological, and we are learning to identify how it happens inside the uterus, doesn’t it suggest a future in which gay people can be prevented? This spring, R. Albert Mohler Jr., the president of a Southern Baptist theological seminary in Kentucky and one of the country’s leading Evangelical voices, advocated just that. “We want to understand why some persons will struggle with that particular sin,” he explained. “If there is a way we can help with the struggle, we should certainly be open to it, the same way we would help alcoholics deal with their temptation.”
The rush to declare a biological mandate is motivated by a political agenda, says Fausto-Sterling, the author of Sexing the Body, who is married to a woman after a marriage to a man. “For me and for any feminist, I think it’s a pretty fragile way to argue for human rights. I want to see the claims for gay rights made on moral, ethical, legal, and constitutional bases that don’t rely on a particular scientific view of sexual development.”

Especially if that view invites the opponents of gay people to consider dramatic interventions meant to stop the development of homosexual orientation in a fetus. What if prenatal tests were able to show a predisposition to gayness? How long would it be before some pharmaceutical company develops a patch to regulate hormone flow and direct the baby’s orientation? Michael Bailey, for one, isn’t troubled by the moral implications any more than he would oppose fetal screens for potential birth defects, though he quickly adds his personal belief that homosexuality is “a good” on par with heterosexuality. “There’s no reason to ban, or become hysterical about, selecting for heterosexuality,” he says. “That’s precisely what parenting is about: shaping the children to have traits the parents value.”

It’s bizarre to think some value systems might lump gayness in with—say—sickle-cell anemia or Down syndrome. As Matt Foreman from the Task Force put it, “It’s not playing with the number of toes you have; it’s really manipulating your very essence. So many people see gay people only in terms of sexual behavior, as opposed to what sexual orientation is really about, which is how you fit into the world. I don’t want to get mushy, but it’s about your soul.”
The Science of Gaydar - New Research on Everything From Voice Pitch to Hair Whorl -- New York Magazine
 

Völuspá

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If you don't believe it's a sin, but simply a part of biology then what's to stop someone changing it anyway?

I seem to have overlooked that possibility, but according to this article, of people who think homosexuality is biological, only 1 in 5 find it unacceptable.

In poll after poll, of the one third of Americans who believe homosexuality is socially influenced, in other words “a choice,” about 70 percent think being gay is “not acceptable.” But for those who believe it is biologically mandated, the statistic reverses, and four out of five Americans find gayness “acceptable.”
Anyway, I naturally think that trying alter your child's biology based on sexual orientation is ridiculous. I find it upsetting that people would even consider it an option. Homosexuality has a part in the human race, and trying to change it is extremely misled. If I found out my mother underwent treatments to change who I was, I'd be extremely upset.

Though maybe if the possibility to alter one's orientation in the womb were proven possible, more people would be swayed from believing it's socialized. Seeing as people who believe it's biological are more accepting of it, maybe it would make for a more tolerant world where fewer people would want to use it anyway.
 
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Montalban

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Of course not. Whoe is the mother to interfere with her child's sexuality? If the child is gay, it is because God has made him so. The mother has no right to change what God has decided.

You'll find a lot of societies have it where the parent has rights over the child.

It's strange that way; that we deem children not yet fit enough to decide things for themselves ;)
 
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Montalban

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Hm...it puts me in mind of the "Clockwork Orange" if you've ever read it or seen it - difficult to know how far one should go in medical (if that's the word for it) intervention

If one doesn't believe in things like God, the soul, etc. then morality is 'moral' because of medicine.

If we're only atoms then only atoms make us gay, or whatever.

Any sense of disgust one might have to the notion that we should stop people being gay, is equally the result of those atoms.
 
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Montalban

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IF it is all based on biology...

Völuspá;52532267 said:
I seem to have overlooked that possibility, but according to this article, of people who think homosexuality is biological, only 1 in 5 find it unacceptable.

...Then if they find it unacceptable, then they're finding it unacceptable is also biological!
 
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Supreme

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You'll find a lot of societies have it where the parent has rights over the child.

It's strange that way; that we deem children not yet fit enough to decide things for themselves ;)

I know, and that's the sad fact of the matter. Parents think they have a right to decide whether their child is to be staright or gay.

Homsexuality is not a choice. No one deliberately subjegates themselves to a minority group, especially not one they society generally doesn't tolerate.
 
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Montalban

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I know, and that's the sad fact of the matter. Parents think they have a right to decide whether their child is to be staright or gay.
I call it 'instilling values'
Homsexuality is not a choice. No one deliberately subjegates themselves to a minority group, especially not one they society generally doesn't tolerate.

So, they're compelled to be gay?
 
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tansy

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If one doesn't believe in things like God, the soul, etc. then morality is 'moral' because of medicine.

If we're only atoms then only atoms make us gay, or whatever.

Any sense of disgust one might have to the notion that we should stop people being gay, is equally the result of those atoms.

Good point.
 
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Montalban

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Good point.

Without straying off-topic, the Nazis did many experiments on lots of things, including how people can survive extremes of tempreture.

Some of that research holds information that would save lives today - if it were released widely. However most people (of which I count myself as one) are against it because of an over-arching belief that science knowledge must be gained 'ethically'. Now 'ethics' are not yet in the realm of science.

But those that support a purely materialistic/scientific stance are opening up a can of worms to all sorts of justifications of action(s).

We could experiment on homosexuals and see what makes them tick. Why not take the stance that they're the minority amongst people, and therefore, by that reason alone it constitutes something abnormal, (not amongst the 'norm')
 
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tansy

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Without straying off-topic, the Nazis did many experiments on lots of things, including how people can survive extremes of tempreture.

Some of that research holds information that would save lives today - if it were released widely. However most people (of which I count myself as one) are against it because of an over-arching belief that science knowledge must be gained 'ethically'. Now 'ethics' are not yet in the realm of science.

But those that support a purely materialistic/scientific stance are opening up a can of worms to all sorts of justifications of action(s).

We could experiment on homosexuals and see what makes them tick. Why not take the stance that they're the minority amongst people, and therefore, by that reason alone it constitutes something abnormal, (not amongst the 'norm')

yes...and the more that's discovered, the more the ethical difficulties - mind you, sometimes i'm not too sure what reall can be counted as 'normal'
 
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Montalban

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yes...and the more that's discovered, the more the ethical difficulties - mind you, sometimes i'm not too sure what reall can be counted as 'normal'
Yes!

Certainly I can accept that some might argue that a 'range' of sexualities is normal. However that would then leave people whose desires are currently illegal saying why not extend that range.
 
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Völuspá

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It's strange that way; that we deem children not yet fit enough to decide things for themselves

So are you saying you would support altering a fetus' would-be orientation?

I find it pathetic that all this is made permissible by religion. If a women could obtain treatment to prevent her baby from having black or asian features, would the issue really be so complicated?

I call it 'instilling values'

Telling someone to spend their entire lives fighting off and suppressing their true nature in vain doesn't sound like instilling very good values.

Then if they find it unacceptable, then they're finding it unacceptable is also biological!

Are serious? Do you understand nature vs. nurture? You aren't born a bigot, it's learned. Or maybe you think only non-Christians are in the 'biological' camp, and therefore you can say ridiculous things about us. Think again.
 
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tansy

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Yes!

Certainly I can accept that some might argue that a 'range' of sexualities is normal. However that would then leave people whose desires are currently illegal saying why not extend that range.

Yes, that is a problem...would people who consider that we merely evolved and God had nothing to do with anything (inc our morals), consider some of the illegal sexual expressions an aberration, or that their sexual preferences are some kind of evolutionary throwback (as some evolutionists think belief in God is a kind of evolutionary by-product, maybe even what by most would probably be considered highly distasteful if not disgusting, could be seen in an evolutionary light by them - not talking homosexuality here btw)?
 
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Völuspá

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Certainly I can accept that some might argue that a 'range' of sexualities is normal. However that would then leave people whose desires are currently illegal saying why not extend that range.

Homosexuality is completely normal in a biological sense, even if not accepted in a social sense.

Also, non-consent is the cut-off point regarding the legality of sex. Homosexual sex allows for consent, whereas bestiality and pedophilia do not. We generally consider these things wrong because to engage in sexual activity with someone who cannot consent is victimization. Homosexuality in no way compares with this.

Really, what's wrong with homosexuality that it doesn't compare with heterosexuality? Do we really have to banter people for being a minority?
 
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tansy

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Völuspá;52532691 said:
Homosexuality is completely normal in a biological sense, even if not accepted in a social sense.

Also, non-consent is the cut-off point regarding the legality of sex. Homosexual sex allows for consent, whereas bestiality and pedophilia do not. We generally consider these things wrong because to engage in sexual activity with someone who cannot consent is victimization. Homosexuality in no way compares with this.

Really, what's wrong with homosexuality that it doesn't compare with heterosexuality? Do we really have to banter people for being a minority?

I'm not sure that anyone here was bantering people for being a minority...we were more talking about ethics with regard to where to draw the line in medical (or otherwise) intervention - and of course one's worldview can effect one's ethics and morality.
 
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Captain_Obvious

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This is a very interesting discussion.

While I would never call homosexuality a "birth defect," I might be compelled to accept any medical procedure that could make my potential child a heterosexual. I wouldn't do this for any moral reason, but rather so that the poor kid doesn't have to deal with intolerance. Emotional hardships could be prevented, just as physical hardships could be prevented for a procedure which would alter actual defects. If being heterosexual were the subjugated condition, I wouldn't really mind if my parents (however children are produced) OK'd a procedure to make me homosexual -- I'm sure I would like who I am, without the intolerance, regardless of the procedure, as that would be the only me of which I would be cognitively aware.
 
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