If hell is the punishment and Jesus paid for it

2PhiloVoid

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I'm not sure anyone has actually answered what the OP asked. She's gotten the impression (presumably from other Christians, and possibly from discussions here) that Christians think Jesus had to pay the penalty that otherwise we would have to pay. But most people here believe the main penalty for sinners is hell. Not just death. Annihilationism (that the only punishment for sin is death) is considered unorthodox here. So why wasn't Jesus sentenced to hell?

Some Christians believe in the "harrowing of hell," that Jesus went there briefly to spring some or all of those who had died before. But that's certainly not equivalent to what Christian tradition says happens to sinners: an eternity of torment.

There are traditional answers to this question, but I haven't seen them given here. I'm not going to give them myself, because I don't believe in penal substitution in the first place.

There's nothing quite like Post-Apostolic Tradition to tie our rational, analytic, even truthful hands behind our backs........................is there?

No, I'm fairly confident that in our reading of Genesis and of the Gospels alone, a robust application of expansive (Jewishly inclined) hermeneutics will indicate that 'death' IS the penalty for human sin; our penalty is to be separated from the Tree of Life. And that's that. It's only when we start importing Greek notions of the afterworld/underworld that we run into mis-interpretations of the Scriptures that lead us into some altered perceptions about punitive teleology in our theology.
 
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hedrick

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There's nothing quite like Post-Apostolic Tradition to tie our rational, analytic, even truthful hands behind our backs........................is there?

No, I'm fairly confident that in our reading of Genesis and of the Gospels alone, a robust application of expansive (Jewishly inclined) hermeneutics will indicate that 'death' IS the penalty for human sin; our penalty is to be separated from the Tree of Life. And that's that. It's only when we start importing Greek notions of the afterworld/underworld that we run into mis-interpretations of the Scriptures that lead us into some altered perceptions about punitive teleology in our theology.
OK, but this seems to imply that hell in the traditional sense doesn't exist. That's a legitimate viewpoint, which you can argue in Controversial Christianity Theology. But I'm guessing the OP was looking for someone to defend the traditional theology.
 
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hedrick

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Gotquestions is not my idea of a source for theology. I disagree with a large fraction of what they say, including the answer I'm about to quote. But it is does represent a pretty standard view of generic American pop theology. That's the theology the OP seems to be asking about. So it's worth quoting their answer:

"Sin against an infinite God must be paid infinitely. That is why payment for our sin must be infinite. There are only two options for infinite payment. Either a finite creature (man) must pay for his sin for an infinite amount of time, or an infinite Being (Jesus) must pay for it once for all men for all time. There are no other options. A sin against an infinitely holy God requires an equally infinite satisfaction as payment, and even an eternity in hell will not dissipate God’s infinite, righteous wrath against sin. Only a divine Being could withstand the infinite wrath of a holy God against our sin. It requires an equally infinite Being as a substitute for mankind to satisfy God’s wrath. Jesus, as the God-man, is the only possible Savior."

If the penalty for our sins is eternity in hell, how did Jesus' death pay our penalty if He did not spend eternity in hell?

If the OP is willing to read a fairly substantial web page, here is a more nuanced way of talking about substitution that doesn't have this issue. The reason it doesn't is because it's not quite so literal about the mathematics of the substitution: N.T. Wright on Penal Substitution. If you're going to accept penal substitution, this is the best explanation I've seen. Unfortunately I don't know why to summarize it in a quick posting here.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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OK, but this seems to imply that hell in the traditional sense doesn't exist. That's a legitimate viewpoint, which you can argue in Controversial Christianity Theology. But I'm guessing the OP was looking for someone to defend the traditional theology.

Jesus' going to some place of Ever Burning Fire to pay the price for us isn't 'the' traditional theology, although I have seen one form bandied about by those in the Charismatic/Faith Movement. It is one of several theologies, and I don't think we should equivocate as Christians by saying something like, "Well, the idea of eternal hellfire can be traced all the way back to such and such post-apostolic writer/leader (like, say, Justin Martyr), so we should interpret it all through that lens..........."

No, I think the whole think is a bit -- no, a lot--more exegetically complex than all of that.

So, @holo , are you following what I've been attempting to communicate here as I've responded to hedrick ?
 
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holo

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Jesus' going to some place of Ever Burning Fire to pay the price for us isn't 'the' traditional theology, although I have seen one form bandied about by those in the Charismatic/Faith Movement. It is one of several theologies, and I don't think we should equivocate as Christians by saying something like, "Well, the idea of eternal hellfire can be traced all the way back to such and such post-apostolic writer/leader (like, say, Justin Martyr), so we should interpret it all through that lens..........."

No, I think the whole think is a bit -- no, a lot--more exegetically complex than all of that.

So, @holo , are you following what I've been attempting to communicate here as I've responded to hedrick ?
There have been some interesting replies to this problem here, and I'm glad to see so many aren't simply sidestepping it.

To me, it looks more and more like that the mainstream Christian idea of hell (as in eternal torment for the unsaved) comes first, and the attempts to justify it logically/rationally/biblically come afterwards. As far as I can tell, the idea of eternal torment is very hard to defend from reading the bible. Not just because of things that there's no such thing mentioned at all in the OT, but even more because it's obviously contrary to the idea of God being just, much less graceful. I don't think I've ever attended a church where the idea wasn't that Jesus saved mankind (or rather, a tiny fraction of mankind) by taking upon himself the punishment that God would otherwise have inflicted upon us. A very judicial, or even mathematical, way of looking at it. God's wrath had to be satisfied, but like with the animal sacrifices of the OT, he could channel that rage somewhere else. In other words, he won't actually forgive anyone, he has to vent his anger on something or someone. I can't get that idea to add up, especially in light of Jesus' admonition that we, unlike God, simply forgive our transgressors.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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then Jesus must be in hell right now and never get out. Or am I missing something?
Are you talking about the "gehenna/hellfire" of Matthew 23?

Jesus reserved a lot of His scathing verbal attacks against the 1st century Judean Rulers and High Priesthood:

Matthew 23:
15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! That ye are going about the sea and the dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of ye-selves
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>

Luke 16 shows a rich man be tormented in "hades" by a flame:

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13). The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua. The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Luke 16:24
And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me
that I am being pained in this flame."

Some interesting videos if any are interested.................

Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread

.........................

.........................
 
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AvgJoe

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then Jesus must be in hell right now and never get out. Or am I missing something?

Question: "If the penalty for our sins is eternity in hell, how did Jesus’ death pay our penalty if He did not spend eternity in hell?"

Answer:
If we think of Jesus as merely a man, then this question is a natural one to ask. But the reason Jesus did not have to spend eternity in hell is that He is not merely a man, but the God-man. The second Person of the Godhead took on flesh and lived among men in the form of a man. But He was a man like no other because His nature was that of God—holy, perfect and infinite.

Several passages attest to this fact, such as the opening passage in John’s Gospel. It is there we read the following:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:1–3, 14).

This passage gives clear testimony that the eternal Word, who is co-eternal with God and of the same essence as God, took on human flesh and made His dwelling (“pitched his tent” or “tabernacled”) among us. As the apostle Paul says regarding Jesus, “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9).

With that in mind, let’s look more closely at the question. It is certainly true that the penalty for our sins is an eternity in hell. The Bible says that all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and that the wages of our sin is death (Romans 6:23). The book of Revelation says that those whose names aren’t in the Lamb’s book of life are cast into the lake of fire where they will be tormented “forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10, 15).

But how can the death of Jesus atone for the sins of every person who has ever lived? This is where the discussion of Jesus being the God-man comes in. If Jesus were a mere man (with sin of His own), then His death wouldn’t even atone for His own sin, much less the sins of another. But Jesus is no mere man; He is God in human flesh. As a man, He can identify with those for whom He sacrificed Himself. As a perfectly sinless man, He can atone for the sins of mankind without first having to atone for His own sin. Finally, as God, He can fully satisfy the wrath of God that our sins incur.

Sin against an infinite God must be paid infinitely. That is why payment for our sin must be infinite. There are only two options for infinite payment. Either a finite creature (man) must pay for his sin for an infinite amount of time, or an infinite Being (Jesus) must pay for it once for all men for all time. There are no other options. A sin against an infinitely holy God requires an equally infinite satisfaction as payment, and even an eternity in hell will not dissipate God’s infinite, righteous wrath against sin. Only a divine Being could withstand the infinite wrath of a holy God against our sin. It requires an equally infinite Being as a substitute for mankind to satisfy God’s wrath. Jesus, as the God-man, is the only possible Savior.

www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-paid-penalty.html
 
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SinoBen

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then Jesus must be in hell right now and never get out. Or am I missing something?
Jesus paid for the penalty of sin which is death. Jesus defeated death since he rose again on the third day, so no he is not in hell nor ever been there.
 
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mmksparbud

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Jesus paid for the penalty of sin which is death. Jesus defeated death since he rose again on the third day, so no he is not in hell nor ever been there.

Agree. God did not tell Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would burn in hell forever---He said they would die.
 
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dcalling

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I can appreciate the argument that eternal existence in hell isn't God's punishment but rather where you'll sort of have to go if you don't go to heaven. But that seems to go against the idea of being paid or punished according to one's actions.

I kind of agree on this idea, since now I more and more think we actually don't have free will (or not as free as we think) and God alone decides who to save, i.e. no matter how bad you are (such as Paul) if God decides to save you you are saved and changed, and your action will reflect that (and not that you do good things to be saved).
 
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SinoBen

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I kind of agree on this idea, since now I more and more think we actually don't have free will (or not as free as we think) and God alone decides who to save, i.e. no matter how bad you are (such as Paul) if God decides to save you you are saved and changed, and your action will reflect that (and not that you do good things to be saved).

We humans are limited in our free will, if we jump off a tall building we will hit the ground hard for example. However, we were not created to be automatons or robots, we are able to make free choice within the bounds of nature.
 
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dcalling

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We humans are limited in our free will, if we jump off a tall building we will hit the ground hard for example. However, we were not created to be automatons or robots, we are able to make free choice within the bounds of nature.

Yes that is true. I think I had a limited understand of scripture and another user in a different post sort of changed my mind already. I still feel we are like robots in some ways, except that we have conscious, which is impossible to do on machines.
 
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SinoBen

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Yes that is true. I think I had a limited understand of scripture and another user in a different post sort of changed my mind already. I still feel we are like robots in some ways, except that we have conscious, which is impossible to do on machines.
I doubt God would have wanted humanity programmed (like robots) to love Him. What kind of love is that? But getting back to the OP, the penalty for sin is death, hell is a place set up for satan and his crew, and anyone else choosing to go along with him. The choice making happens when humans are still alive, not after they meet death. The "choice"... well, in a nutshell is a choice between acknowledging (and therefore obeying and loving) God, or not.
 
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