If God's election gives no consideration to any attributes of the chosen....

[MrPolo]

If God's election gives no consideration to any attributes of the chosen (i.e. all souls are equally guilty), then why would it be difficult for a rich man to get into heaven? Surely God does not have a harder time electing rich people. Help me sort this thought exercise.

 

[Zecryphon]

If God's election gives no consideration to any attributes of the chosen (i.e. all souls are equally guilty), then why would it be difficult for a rich man to get into heaven? Surely God does not have a harder time electing rich people. Help me sort this thought exercise.

Are you referring to this?

Mat 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."

Look to the parable that precedes this statement by Jesus and you should be able to find your answer. It seems clear to me that the rich young man in that story loved his money more than he loved God and he went away sad because he would rather have his money than give it all to the poor and follow Jesus.

 

[MrPolo]

It seems clear to me that the rich young man in that story loved his money more than he loved God and he went away sad because he would rather have his money than give it all to the poor and follow Jesus.

I would agree that a person's disposition toward or against God affects his salvation. However, there are those who believe a person's disposition has no bearing whatsoever on one's salvation.

 

[Zecryphon]

We're all of the same disposition before God, we're all sinners. So whether someone is rich or not has no bearing on whether or not they will be saved. Nothing we do saves us. It is all God's work so that no one may boast.

 

[MrPolo]

whether someone is rich or not has no bearing on whether or not they will be saved.

So then what is meant when Scripture says it's hard for a rich man to get into heaven?

 

[Zecryphon]

In the context of the parable it means that for that particular rich young ruler not even the promise if heaven was enough to separate him from his money. Even though he claimed to love God, when Jesus asked him to do one simple thing, the rich man showed that he in fact did not love God as much as he claimed he did and Jesus used him as an illustration to the disciples of people who say they are one thing but in reality are so
Erving different.

 

[MrPolo]

the rich man showed that he in fact did not love God as much as he claimed

Ok. But that just confirms that there is something about the person that determines whether or not he will be saved.

 

[MamaZ]

Ok. But that just confirms that there is something about the person that determines whether or not he will be saved.

Nope. There is nothing in a human being that deserves salvation. It is all a gift of God not of works that any man should boast. This is why Gods Grace is so awesome.

 

[Zecryphon]

Ok. But that just confirms that there is something about the person that determines whether or not he will be saved.

No, it doesn't. Election is all God's doing, just as salvation is all His doing. Nothing we do or own or don't own, determines whether or not we are elected for salvation. God decided before the foundation of the world that all would be eligible for salvation, thus elect. Why? Because all are sinners and need a savior.

 

[Yab Yum]

Matthew 5:
2And opening his mouth, he taught them, saying:
3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.
5Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
6Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
9Blesses are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God.
10Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are the spiritual zeros.

 

[jckstraw72]

daaaang MrPolo, great post! i never thought of it that way (although ive certainly thought about plenty of other Scriptures that are obviously incompatible with Calvinism ...)

 

[Verticordious]

No, it doesn't. Election is all God's doing, just as salvation is all His doing. Nothing we do or own or don't own, determines whether or not we are elected for salvation. God decided before the foundation of the world that all would be eligible for salvation, thus elect. Why? Because all are sinners and need a savior.

You're not answering his question. You just said that the rich man rejected the promise because he loved his money more than God, then you said that people have no choice in the matter of salvation. You say the rich man made a choice reject salvation, then you later say nobody has a choice about salvation. How exactly does that work? How can money be affecting this man's choice if he has no choice?

 

[Ghost air]

I think that the problem is that many Christians are being taught from the pulpits that God chose them personally, without any condition of repentance or faith toward God.. ie, unconditional election.

In all these discussions on election... How often do we see Christ glorified in that He is the elect, the Chosen one in whom the Father delights..? Often He is not even mentioned in the discussion.

Furthermore, how often do we think of these verses in light of calling ourselves the elect, rather than Christ..

By the offense of one (Adam), condemnation has come upon all men, and by the righteousness of one (Christ, the last Adam), justification of life.

Or..

If ye shall seek to save your life ye shall lose it, and if ye shall lose it for ME and the gospel, ye shall save it..

Or..

If any man shall come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me.

Here's the reason why the church is referred to the 'elect'..

Because we are members of His body.. the body of Christ.. and we know (or should know) that He is the elect, the one in whom the Father delights.

The Father loveth the Son and has given all things into His hand.. he that believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not, the wrath of God abides on him.

Saying that we are the elect is only half the truth, the whole truth is that we are the elect of God IN HIM, and again, because He is the elect, the one in whom the Father delights.

 

[Zecryphon]

You're not answering his question. You just said that the rich man rejected the promise because he loved his money more than God, then you said that people have no choice in the matter of salvation. You say the rich man made a choice reject salvation, then you later say nobody has a choice about salvation. How exactly does that work? How can money be affecting this man's choice if he has no choice?

I answered his question just fine. The only thing an unsaved person can do is reject God. Until God works in our lives first through the law and shows us we're sinners, it is then and only then that we recognize our need for a savior. The rich young man was not being offered salvation. He was being told to sell all he had to follow Jesus. Why? Because Jesus knew the young man's heart, He knew the young man did not love God as much as he claimed and knew he would never part with his money. He showed the young ruler that he was a sinner.

 

[Optimax]

If God's election gives no consideration to any attributes of the chosen (i.e. all souls are equally guilty), then why would it be difficult for a rich man to get into heaven? Surely God does not have a harder time electing rich people. Help me sort this thought exercise.

The "elected" are those who do what these verses say.

Rom 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
KJV

It is harder for a rich man to do this because his trust are in his riches instead of God. His riches cannot save him. Only Jesus can.

 

[Uphill Battle]

The OP is correct.

there was zero purpose in Jesus attempting to show the Rich man the error of his ways, if he never would have "elected" him anyways.

nor, is there any reason for exhortation to certain behaviours, if people were pre-selected.

I have a very hard time beliving that Christ entertained useless contemplative exercises.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If God's election gives no consideration to any attributes of the chosen (i.e. all souls are equally guilty), then why would it be difficult for a rich man to get into heaven? Surely God does not have a harder time electing rich people. Help me sort this thought exercise.

Just do a study on the jewish/hebrew covenantle parable of the "rich-man/lazarus"

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus
LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN

[URL="http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm"]http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm[/URL]
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM

 

[MamaZ]

with the rich man we see that he stood on his own righteousness in claiming that he had done all he needed to enter into the Kingdom of God. Do you honostly believe that he had never not once broke the law in all his life? That he lived a perfect life? All men are sinners. So when Jesus told this rich man to go and sell all he had and follow Him what did this man who thought he had done all do? Did he obey and do as said? Did he sell all he had? Did he even follow Jesus? There is always something in a human being that is not as it should be in order to stand on their own righteousness. For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. So this mans attributes still could not get him what he wanted. For salvation is not of works. Any works that man should boast. This rich man could have boasted all day long on how righteous he was but there would always be something that kept him from obtaining the Kingdom of God on his own. Just as the scripture shows us if you break even one of the law you break it all. So there this rich man stood just as every man does. Guilty before God.

 

[myways]

I think that the cart is being put before the horse here. God does not elect a man in spite of his wealth, or in spite of his drinking habit, or any other such thing. We are chosen by God before we even become who we are. The rich man's heart hardening wealth is the product of his retrobation. The objects of God's wrath are crafted for the day of destruction. If the rich young ruler was not chosen, then he was not chosen long before he became rich or had anything to rule. Like jacob and esau in Romans 9.

 

[MrPolo]

It is harder for a rich man to do this because his trust are in his riches instead of God. His riches cannot save him. Only Jesus can.

Then you also agree that God determines salvation based on some quality of the person.